The Instigator
LaughingRiddle
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Jifpop09
Con (against)
Winning
25 Points

China is the new Nazi/Imperial Jap type country of the 21st century?

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Post Voting Period
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after 7 votes the winner is...
Jifpop09
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/29/2014 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,886 times Debate No: 44840
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (62)
Votes (7)

 

LaughingRiddle

Pro

I hardly consider this a debate since the truth is so obvious to anyone aware of the facts. But if somone wants to take up the challenege I implore you to try. It will make my points much more powerful when I am able to rebutt yours. The rules are nil, if you have an arugment make it. If you ahve a coutner point make that too.

One thing pretty universally agreed upon is that NK is an utterly evil and sad state. The part people seem to forget is that the blame of NK really doesn't lie with Nks, or even the USSR, because if NOT FOR CHINA there wouldn't even be a NK.

Nk was saved at the cost of 1 million sacrficied CHinese lives. Sacrficed for one of the most evil twisted causes of the last century. Moreover, the entire Korean war was something the Chinese hoped to use as a distraction for an invasion of Taiwan. THe leaders of CHina today have their authority descended directly from the same people responsible for this and see themselves and continuing that legacy.

You can only blame Kim Jong Un so much as you blame China for him even being in power, or his father.

Lets move beyond NK, Tibet. Despite what CHinese propagandist will tell you, Tibet is not at all a part of China. Tibet was a free indpedent county until the 1200s. From 600 AD -1200 AD Tibet was in fact empire of great strength that was an equal rival to China. Come the 13th century it was conquered by MONGOL invaders much like China was before.

After the collpase of mongol rule, Tibet was again autonomous and free. It was not until the 1700s that Qing (manchu) military expiditons made Tibet a tributary state, but was still autnonmous. This is roughly equivalent to Korea, which no one can argue is a part of China.

Fast forwards to the CCP fascist era of the 1950s that is contuing to today. China invades TIbet, and slaughters the army. It also slaughters the people regularly and put down two uprisings with bloody heavy handedness. It is the chinese polciy to move han chinese into Tibet and ghettoize the TIbetan people. This is cultural and real genocide at work. Unmitigated evil.

Like the Nazi Germans the Chinese, especially the CCP ultra nationalist, are entirely convinced of their own racial superiorty. Like the imperial japanese they have a chip on their shoulder and believe the asia region is destined to be theirs.

This is a country that is engaging in the LARGEST ARMS RACE SINCE WWI. And it is draggin the rest of the Pac region with it. Its gnerals and people regulerly make casual refences to wars or future wars against Japan, or even the US.

It is run by the most corrupt single rule poltical party known on earth by volume of money stolen in graft theft. THe entire poltical, economic, and military power is concentrated in thee hands of a corrupt few party members. People whose children will dump acid on your daughter if they don't go out with them. And will probably get away with it because of their power.

China's entire business culture is based around 'guanxi', essentially institutionalized corruption, cronyism, and neopotism. This defines the structure of the CCP and has disseminated into every part of the country and culture.

China has refused to honor WTO agreements, it does not allow foriengers to compete fairly, and will chase out ones it cannot undermine sufficently like google. In the meantime it demands and extorts trade and technology secrets from companies that come to china. While trying to unfairly government fund their own companies in order to export and drain wealth of other countries into their own.

Chinese are known thieves, abusing every intellectual property or patent they can get ahold of, they are known cyber crimnals, and have stolen everything from weapons project and corporate secrets to detailed data on rival countries water, power, and infastrcutre grids. These are acts of war and those of a hostile untrustable nation.

CHina has instiagted conflicts in an attempt to steal terriotry from almost ALL their neighbors, inculding Japan, Vietnam, Philipines, India, and others.

China has the most extensive oppression, propaganda, and censoring machine the world has ever seen.

The people are xenophobic, ultra nationalist, and have a history of following autocratic leaders blindly and stupidly. Even if that does not describe all of them it is irrelvent, the ruling party is most definetly all those things and even good germans would just ;follow orders; no matter how evil they were. Even more likely in China's docile conformity culture.

In anything the CCP does is above all designed to be in the interest of the party and ensuring they remain in power. What is best for the chinese people and country is of secondary importance, if helping the people helps the party then sure, if helping the people in anyway were to weaken the party, forget it. This is a gorup of people who would most likely start WWIII if they believed it was in the party's interest.

Do NOT repeat the mistakes of the past and deal with this country. Embargo it, refuse to buy anything even remotely chiense affiliated, tell your friends, and find polticians who take this matter serious. DO not let China use propaganda and lies to hide its true self.

Or allow them to take advanatge of you economically to fuel their own oppression at home and aggressive evil vendetta abroad.

Your children will have to fight the war for democracy and human decency if you don't do something and be more aware of the global problem China represents. All because you couldn't see them for what they clearly are and in the end YOu empowered them to kill your own.
Jifpop09

Con

I will argue that modern day China is not on the same level as Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan will only be arguing modern day China, as I believe they have come along way since Mao Zedong time.

Economic Freedoms
-----------------------
- Back in Mao's time, China was trying to surpass the USSR as the worlds foremost socialist nation. Since then though, the government has eased up greatly on it's peoples economic freedoms. Most Chinese can pursuit the job field they want and can own private businesses. These reforms to start a market economy started after Mao's death and are continuing to progress.

Secret Police
---------------
- Something that defined Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany, were there secret police. The Gestapo and kempeitai of Nazi Germany and Showa Japan, were formed to find and deal with dissidents within there nations. China created something called the Ministry of State Security. This organization has taken more after the NSA or FBI then secret police of Japan and the Nazi Party, and is a significant improvement over the two.


Reformers taking action
----------------------------
My opponent claims that the Chinese are"xenophobic,ultra nationalist, and have a history of following leaders blindly and stupidly". I first want to point out that the whole world has a history of following leaders blindly and stupidly, not just the Chinese. The Chinese are not xenophobic and afraid to inspire change. Many Chinese travel abroad, inspiring reform for their homeland. A lot of Chinese travel all the way to California to speak out against the government. A notable example would be the colleges in San Francisco. Even people within the CCP are starting to reform. Deng Xiaoping and the Hu-Wen administration have both been leaders in Chinese reform.

Rebuttals
-----------

Chinese are known thieves, abusing every intellectual property or patent they can get a hold of, they are known cyber crimnals, and have stolen everything from weapons project and corporate secrets to detailed data on rival countries water, power, and infastrcutre grids. These are acts of war and those of a hostile untrustable nation.

Tell me a country that hasn't been engaged in some form of controversial espionage. Please show sources when you make accusations on this scale. It is hard to take them seriously when I don't have specific examples.

China has the most extensive oppression, propaganda, and censoring machine the world has ever seen.

China is not the most censored nation the world has ever seen. While the government does censor many things, it has not taken to it's maximum extent. Some nations have eliminated almost all forms of tv,completely locked there borders, censored almost all of non governmental Internet sites, and have eliminated non state religion. China let's it's citizens travel abroad and grants them religious freedoms, while also letting them expose themselves to all forms of different ideas.

Like the Nazi Germans the Chinese, especially the CCP ultra nationalist, are entirely convinced of their own racial superiority. Like the imperial japanese they have a chip on their shoulder and believe the asia region is destined to be theirs.

Over 55 ethnic groups are recognized in China. These ethnic groups have just as much rights as the Han. You also provide no proof that the CCP thinks it's there destiny to rule Asia. Showa Japan had a lot more reasons behind there conquests then territory.

Fast forwards to the CCP fascist era of the 1950s that is contuing to today. China invades TIbet, and slaughters the army. It also slaughters the people regularly and put down two uprisings with bloody heavy handedness. It is the chinese polciy to move han chinese into Tibet and ghettoize the TIbetan people. This is cultural and real genocide at work. Unmitigated evil.

I agree that Maos actions with Tibet were not justified, but I will argue that the invasion was not totally ill founded. Tibet was a unrecognized state at the time, and many countrys world wide supported China in annexing it, including the UK. The Tibetan army was not slaughtered,as my opponent claimed, but after a small skirmish between the Tibetan army and the PLA, Tibet surrendered. Tibetan soilders were given reparations and were allowed to return to there homes shortly after the battle.The current Dalai Lhama surrendered Tibet to China, and China in return granted them autonomy. Only about 400 people died in the invasion in total. Now I don't agree with how Mao handled Tibet afterwards, but the recent administrations have been more lenient to Tibetan rights.

Do NOT repeat the mistakes of the past and deal with this country. Embargo it, refuse to buy anything even remotely chiense affiliated, tell your friends, and find polticians who take this matter serious. DO not let China use propaganda and lies to hide its true self.

This is not the right way to handle it. If country stop trading with them, then there government will only demonstrate more control and more people will starve. The best thing we can do is keep trading, and as ideas pass through the country, so will reforms.China has already come a long way.
Debate Round No. 1
LaughingRiddle

Pro

LaughingRiddle forfeited this round.
Jifpop09

Con

I'm going to give my opponent another chance, considering his account has not been active since he started this debate. I will not post any new arguments this round to make this fair.
Debate Round No. 2
LaughingRiddle

Pro

LaughingRiddle forfeited this round.
Jifpop09

Con

I don't want to win just because of a forfeit. Please only vote on the first 2 arguments.
Debate Round No. 3
62 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by LaughingRiddle 3 years ago
LaughingRiddle
"Again, no country is different. America expanded far beyond the original 13 colonies, and is guilty of genocide against Native Americans and (one could easily argue) Japanese as well."

One could never do so convincingly. it remains the largest cause of death for natives was disease, and that the largest US killing of natives was around 4,000 on the trail of tears. While that is high, it is certainly not enough to be called genocide.

That would be unfair to real genocide victims. (Natives now have totally autonomous land equal to the size of a very large state, Tibetans are burning themselves alive to get the same. Shame on you...

Japanese were geocoding themselves more than the US them. Okinawa, Jap soldiers massacred the civilians to prevent capture. Japan also started the war, and cannot complain since nothing was done to them they didn't do to the Chinese. There is no logical way for you to reason otherwise.

So don't try.
Posted by LaughingRiddle 3 years ago
LaughingRiddle
"It is only ridiculous because American law does not allow it"

Germans, jews, and many in Europe would find much more wrong with a Nazis than American Law. The fact you would pretend otherwise and skirt the question with speculation puts your morals into question.

Maybe you are a neo-Nazi and this is all meant to push your agenda? Or you are insensitive to what the Nazis did? Are you that desperate for an all encompassing precedence excuse?

Go screw your sister then. There is more precedent for this in history you'd probably like to think about but apparently precedence is all that matters to you...

"The only difference between a "colony" and the system America has today is that we no longer dehumanize people"

That is an ignorant statement.

Colonies and the US's creation of role model sovereign states are completely contradictory. They don't develop militaries mostly because they don't feel the need to. (But Japan now feels the need to, and during the cold war the europeans did maintain large land armies) There is nothing about the US that ever stopped them(except immediately after WWII), this is clearly true.

As for being subject, that doesn't mesh with how many have ASKED for a US military presence.

"This is because the US has a near-global hegemony, so the interests of most of the world is indeed the US's interests."

That is not what has created global prosperity, that is the international free trade order you have the US to thank. Also, if most of the world has interest that are the same as the US, these are world interests by definition.

"You are confusing causality and thinking that the US is altruistic"

I never said so, but there is no arguing the US is by far the most benevolent world leader. Compared to PRC and Russia...

"Anyway, that's all I care to respond to"

They cannot even be called responses. They are ignorant, baseless, and immoral things to say.

I'm very glad you will not mouth any more such filth so
Posted by wrichcirw 3 years ago
wrichcirw
If you disagree with my perspective, suggest you agree to disagree, or study up on the topic. Good day.
Posted by wrichcirw 3 years ago
wrichcirw
"Perhaps that is pathetic speculation that doesn't change the fact you cannot list precedence as an excuse without allowing empowering such ridiculous notions such as a reformed Nazi party ."

It is only ridiculous because American law does not allow for it. That is not speculation, and to call it such is simply wrong.

---

"There countries are no longer recognized as colonial, thus the entire historically recognized 'de-colonization' movement. "

The only difference between a "colony" and the system America has today is that we no longer dehumanize people in the subjected country. Still, there is no question they are subjected to American military might...otherwise they'd develop their own militaries.

---

"Some pursue policies of self and global interest. Usully the US has enjoyed the support of most of the free world, places like Russia and CHina are irrelevant."

This is because the US has a near-global hegemony, so the interests of most of the world is indeed the US's interests.

You are confusing causality and thinking that the US is altruistic. Wrong.

---

"China has been invading for territory and greed like it was hundreds of years ago. China is also guilty of genocide in Tibet 100% and on going right now."

Again, no country is different. America expanded far beyond the original 13 colonies, and is guilty of genocide against Native Americans and (one could easily argue) Japanese as well.

---

Anyway, that's all I care to respond to. I'm not benefiting from your perspective unfortunately, and think you would benefit from actually studying this topic before debating it.
Posted by LaughingRiddle 3 years ago
LaughingRiddle
"Never did I say those those Chinese died in WWI, they died about 10 years after." Typo WWII

"That is 200 page list of american inventions" Typo, 2 pages of 200 item lists.
Posted by LaughingRiddle 3 years ago
LaughingRiddle
"This is so ridiculously inaccurate as to make me doubt any other assertion you are making."

http://en.wikipedia.org...

That is 200 page list of american inventions, many of them from the 17 and 1800s. Notably, US democracy, declaration of independence, and constitution would serve as a model and inspiration for the flourishing of democracy in Europe and many European colonies. This is a credible innovation in itself. American political thinkers are to this day still considered the most significant authorities on modern democracy and invented the checks and balances system that underwrites it.

"An obvious example would be America"s wholesale redistribution of foreign companies" patents (those of allies as well as the defeated Germans) after World War I. The legality of this hugely important move was unclear, but few in the United States, at least, would have called it piracy."

As you say this was a post WWI result, large wars often cause technologic reshuffling so to speak. Saying the US was not an innovator does not stick, before WWI the US made key innovations in automobiles and the production line that resulted in things like the Ford Model T.

"Generally, the US was not a technological nor an economic contender until the turn of the 20th century"

The US was not the top technologic power (that was the UK), but it most certainly was a contender.

By 1900 the US was the largest economy in the world, it was certainly already one of the largest by the mid 1800s, and as I said, on that VERY long list above you will mind far too many inventions from the 1700s and especially 1800s to deny the US a 'high tech' status.

Only the UK was reliably superior in all industries.
Posted by LaughingRiddle 3 years ago
LaughingRiddle
1) "On a percentage scale, they are orders of magnitude less severe than other Chinese internal rebellions, and of other rebellions and wars in other countries, to include conflicts such as Russia in WWII"

% is irrelevant unless you mean to say one life is not worth as much as another. This is a dubious self serving claim. The mass death caused by Mao makes him the second largest destroyer of human life in history behind ONLY Joseph Stalin, and AHEAD of even Hitler. (making my nazi comparison fitting)

China also has ENSHRINED this monster to be worshipped by future generations of Chinese. Unlike Russia that has repudiated THEIR monster, CHina continues to blindly worship theirs. It is the height of disgusting and deprave.

As for indians, everyone knows the vast % of indians died from disease, and the survivors got large free autonomous regions. The Tibetans and Uighers are still praying for the same from CHina. They would find it ridiculous you are comparing them to the native americans.

2). The ENTIRE WORLD just watched in Cambodia too, Rwanda, Somalia, etc.

This is about the Chinese watching their own leaders kill them and doing nothing, and why I have no faith in them as a result and wish to treat China the way I do. Not about countries watching things happen in other countries.

3) The US did not enter WWII to save the Jews. There is no moral high ground here.

It doesn't need to be, the US has the moral high ground in enough other places. The US also did not know the scale of the holocaust until later anyway. You are trying to make this about something it is not and its not working.

Also, China is COMMITTING genocide in Tibet, which the US has never done.
Posted by LaughingRiddle 3 years ago
LaughingRiddle
"China did this when it met the west, but not before"

I do not support the idea that the 20th century was the american century, only the result at the end makes that so apparent. But this is not american hubris, because it is an outlook taken by historian around the globe.

Chinese hubris was entirely based on Chinese self perception, precisely what hubris is usually based on. Sheer fancy and ignorance of the wider world. Not an excuse.

"You said, specifically: "Chinese died in greater numbers than the Russians during WWII, and revered the person responsible and his ultra nationalist mantra." You were referring to Mao, even though Mao was not head of China during WWII."

Never did I say those those Chinese died in WWI, they died about 10 years after.

I'm comparing the total number of deaths, the fact they are 10 years apart is irrelevant to the point. The Chinese watched their own people be killed in apocalyptic numbers by their own leaders and did NOTHING. During a time of PEACE with no outside excuse to blame either.

The next time their leaders might cause such mass death, like by leading them into a Nazi type war against the free world, I am justified in not having ANY faith that they would not just follow like a bunch of chattle.

Thus why I think China should be treated for what its government is until a time where that regime stops oppressing the Chinese people.
Posted by LaughingRiddle 3 years ago
LaughingRiddle
My don't we have a poor memory. Let me help you;

In response to :
"China steals maliciously, criminally, in ways that consittue acts of war."

YOU said:
"Empty rhetoric."

I provide source and:
"That alone lists 15 countries that explicitly accuse the Chinese of industrial, corporate, and military espionage. "

You: "LOL, what argument does this refute? I never made the case that China is not involved in rampant corporate and military espionage."

You will excuse me if I see you as incompetent and begin to take you less seriously.

---

"Perhaps the concept of peace is a facade. Competition is core in economic theory, i.e. "peacetime" theory, i.e. the destructive process known in warfare is ubiquitous in peacetime as well."

Well then by that logic I am only even more correct that we should treat China as an enemy like Nazi Germany. They are certainly acting the part anyway.

"It may indeed happen. It may be refined, who knows? Regardless, laws against Naziism in Germany are laws written by Americans to govern Germans."

The point is would it be justified by precedence? You fail to respond to the actual point in question entirely, precedence fails to be a valid excuse. As it should, it is nothing but an excuse.

---

"The sure sign of a weak argument, the personal attack."

Not really, supporting China in terms of Korea is tantamount to supporting NK.

---

"The US has those same "grotesque dreams", and to think otherwise is indeed twisted reasoning."

This is a bald statement with no support.

Not at all, the US has an inherently different culture, government, people, and outlook compared to CHina. This cannot be denied and makes an inherent difference.

The US has also set up free prosperous democracies and created global prosperity. This already sets it apart from countries like CHina and Russia, and is a fact strong enough to move your allegation above seem entirely baseless.

Which is exactly what it is.
Posted by LaughingRiddle 3 years ago
LaughingRiddle
"Sigh. Gunpowder, paper, astronomy, mathematics (Pascal's triangle was developed in China before Pascal), printing press, those are just some of the major accomplishments attributed to the Chinese."

It was also invented in Ancient Greece before Pascal. Printing was invented by buddhist missionaries from the Himalayan kingdoms and India, not China.

Chinese Astronomy was inferior to Western in most ways. They had impressive start charts and could predict eclipses well. But Greek astronomy was treated as a form of mathematics, and this is the more accurate form of astronomy related to what you would learn today. Greeks would calculate the circumference of the Earth, developed mechanical models of planetary movement, proposed the idea earth rotates on an axis, and were the first to propose a heliocentric system among other accomplishments. The superiority of western astronomy is really not debate.

Gunpowder; early gunpowder would often make more smoke than fire, would burn unevenly and misfire, and was generally not effective except as a psychological weapon. It was also discovered by accident while looking for immorality. (not exactly even a remotely intended invention) The first military success with gunpowder would be by mostly by arabs around the 1200s. Europeans would refine gunpowder and make it burn evenly, misfire less, and would later invent an unrelated powder called 'black powder' in the 1800s that replaces Chinese based gunpowder.

Paper is the only real Chinese invention. But paper is only worth what you write on it, while the west had plenty of other things to write on while the chinese lacked much worth writing of.

"This is generally not debatable."

Not it is not.
7 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Vote Placed by YewRose19298 3 years ago
YewRose19298
LaughingRiddleJifpop09Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: I did not know who to agree with before the debate, but cons arguments won me over. Con also had better conduct in the comments section, and used better grammar then pro who said 'idk' for I don't know. Con also had better arguments because pro did not give any sources even though he used information that definitely needed them. Con did not use any either but his did not really warrant them as much.
Vote Placed by Buckethead31594 3 years ago
Buckethead31594
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Reasons for voting decision: F/F
Vote Placed by Tophatdoc 3 years ago
Tophatdoc
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Reasons for voting decision: I will ignore conduct since Con asked the voters to vote on the first round arguments. Neither side receives the S&G point. Neither side receives the source point since neither used sources. Congratulations to Con for a well done debate. Good luck to you both in future debates.
Vote Placed by PiercedPanda 3 years ago
PiercedPanda
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Reasons for voting decision: Con had better arguments, and pro forfeited.
Vote Placed by Krazzy_Player 3 years ago
Krazzy_Player
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Reasons for voting decision: As requested I'm rating for only Round 1. Pro gave reasons ,"Why China should be considered as new Nazi/Imperial type of country"? but it was countered specifically by Con and made better arguments.
Vote Placed by janetsanders733 3 years ago
janetsanders733
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Reasons for voting decision: Con gave better reasons like population, ethnic, and economic, as well as social reasons for why China is not like Nazi German or Japan.
Vote Placed by wrichcirw 3 years ago
wrichcirw
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Reasons for voting decision: This was not an objective study of the resolution. Neither side sourced, at all. Many of PRO's points were little more than rants. I don't know how he can consider the Chinese xenophobic when they have the largest diaspora in the world. CON is IMHO correct that there's not much different from China than other countries...and while such a stance would actually uphold the resolution (the idea being that the Nazis weren't much different either), PRO deviated from this and attempted to make the Chinese exceptional. They are not.