The Instigator
baggins
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
AlwaysMoreThanYou
Con (against)
Winning
28 Points

Christ Jesus (Peace on Him) did not teach the concept of trinity

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Post Voting Period
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after 7 votes the winner is...
AlwaysMoreThanYou
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/5/2012 Category: Religion
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,310 times Debate No: 27847
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (5)
Votes (7)

 

baggins

Pro

This debate is part of Thett’s winter tournament.

== Disclaimer ==

Christianity and Islam are two of the greatest religion on earth. The two faiths are extremely close to each other and share lots of similarities. This does not mean that our religions are identical. In fact we have many differences which are debated all the time. However the similarities are much more interesting and important than differences.


Perhaps the greatest similarity of all is that both Muslims and Christians glorify Christ Jesus (Peace on Him). Christians praise Jesus (Peace on Him) based on testimony of the ‘Gospels’, which are account of his life written by his apostles. Muslims praise Jesus (Peace on Him) based on testimony of our beloved Prophet Muhammad (Peace on Him) who was inspired by God.


Muslims and Christians disagree about message of Jesus (Peace on Him). In this debate we will be debating one of the most important differences of them all; the concept of ‘trinity’. However even as we discuss our differences, we are aware of the major similarities, without which this debate would have been redundant. We hope that this debate will serve to increase mutual understanding and appreciation.


The Holy Quran calls Christians as ‘Nasara’, which means friends. This is because they are the friends of Prophet Jesus (Peace on Him). It is possible for two communities to disagree with each other and yet be friends. In spite of all our differences, we are trying our best to follow Jesus (Peace on Him) as per our understanding of his blessed message. If any of the readers don’t understand this simple yet important point – this debate is not meant for them. We sincerely request them to not to read this debate at all.


== Introduction ==

Trinity: The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion — the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another. [Copied from http://www.newadvent.org...]


Christians believe in trinity. Muslims disagree strongly with this concept and insist that there is only one God and any association of any other being with God’s divine nature is a major sin.


Christians believe in the concept of trinity based on teachings of The New Testament, most important of which are the four Gospels. Muslims consider The Gospels to be corrupted versions of the original. Muslims understand the teachings of Prophet Jesus (Peace on Him) through teachings of The Holy Quran. However this debate is not about authenticity of The Gospel or The Holy Quran.


In this debate I am making a stronger claim. If the teachings of Christ Jesus (Peace on Him) are analyzed carefully from the Gospels (as they exist today), it becomes apparent that he did not teach the concept of trinity. The burden of proof is shared between me and my opponent. The scope of this debate is limited to teachings of Jesus (Peace on Him) from the four Gospels.


We hope that this debate will enhance our understanding of the teachings of Christ Jesus (Peace on Him).


== Rules ==

R1: First round for acceptance

R2 and R3: Arguments

R4: Conclusions. No new arguments are allowed in fourth round.

AlwaysMoreThanYou

Con

I thank baggins for his willingness to debate this topic, and thett3 for setting up this glorious tournament.

As the Catechism of the Catholic Church (Paragraph 841) says of the Muslims:

'The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." (330)'

I feel that baggins has said pretty much everything that needs to be said, so I accept and wish him good luck, hoping this debate will be interesting and productive.
Debate Round No. 1
baggins

Pro


Let us proceed with the arguments.


== Christ Jesus (Peace on Him) did not teach trinity ==


This simple fact alone is sufficient to affirm the resolution. Christ Jesus (Peace on Him) did not even mention the concept of trinity.


There is only one verse in which Christ Jesus (Peace on Him) mentions ‘The Father’, ‘The Son’ and the Holy Spirit’ in one sentence


Matthew 28: 18-20


And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”


Christ Jesus (Peace on Him) commands that baptism should be carried out in the name of ‘The Father’, ‘The Son’ and ‘The Holy Spirit’. However he does not say that the three are same or equivalent. In these verses he also says that he has been given authority in heaven and earth. Who gave him this authority? It is pretty clear Jesus (Peace on Him) had been given this authority by God. In these verses Christ Jesus (Peace on Him) has not said that he is equal to God.


== Christ Jesus (Peace on Him) taught Unity of God ==


Christ Jesus (Peace on Him) considered the first commandment to be most important.


Mark 12 28:30


And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, “Which commandment is the most important of all?” Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’


The scribe specifically asked him about the most important commandment. Had Jesus (Peace on Him) wanted to teach the concept of trinity it was the perfect opportunity to explain his message. However he taught that God is One. One is not three. Jesus (Peace on Him) taught us to love One God with all our hearts, souls, mind and strength. That is what we Muslims do. Further he addressed God as ‘our God’. This means that God is the Lord of Christ Jesus (Peace on Him) just as God is the Lord of rest of humanity. This is the teaching of Jesus (Peace on Him). This is the message of the life of Christ Jesus (Peace on Him). We pray to God that we never deviate from the most important teaching of our beloved Prophet Jesus and Muhammad (Peace on Them).


There are many more verses where Christ Jesus (Peace on Him) shows God to be much superior to him. A person called him as ‘Good Teacher’. Christ Jesus (Peace on Him) told him that no one is good except God alone. This event has been recorded by both Luke and Mark.


Please note that he said ‘God alone’. Clearly when Christ Jesus (Peace on Him) thought about God, he considered him as singular. This is the way we should all remember and worship God.


Luke 18:18-19


And a ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.


Mark 10:17-18


And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.


== Christ Jesus (Peace on Him) prayed to God ==


If Christ Jesus (Peace on Him) used to pray to God. This has been duly recorded in the Gospels many times. This also confirms that Christ Jesus (Peace on Him) was not God.


Mark 1:35


And rising very early in the morning, while it was still dark, he departed and went out to a desolate place, and there he prayed.


Not only did he pray himself, he also asked his disciples to pray.


Luke 22: 39-41


And he came out and went, as was his custom, to the Mount of Olives, and the disciples followed him. And when he came to the place, he said to them, “Pray that you may not enter into temptation.”And he withdrew from them about a stone's throw, and knelt down and prayed,


There are many more verses where Christ Jesus (Peace on Him) has glorified God and prayed to God. I may quote more verses in later rounds if needed.


== Anticipating my opponent’s argument ==


Christians often quote the following verse to claim that Jesus (Peace on Him) claimed to be God:


John 10: 30


I and the Father are one.


However this is complete misinterpretation of what Christ Jesus (Peace on Him) was trying to say. To understand this verse we need to understand the context of the verses.


John 10:24


So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.”


This particular group of Jews surrounded Christ Jesus (Peace on Him) and demanded that he should explain whether he is the Christ. It is quite clear that this particular group is hostile and looking for an excuse to pick up a fight.


John 10:25-29


Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.


Jesus (Peace on Him) tells them,



  1. He has already told them (that he is Christ) however they are not ready to believe.

  2. His works (or miracles) also testify to the fact that he is Christ.

  3. All his miracles are performed in the name of God.

  4. His genuine followers recognize him and will attain salvation through him.

  5. His genuine followers (apostles) have been given to him by God.

  6. God is greater than all.

  7. No can snatch the apostles out of God’s hand.


John 10:30


I and the Father are one.”


So what does this mean? Looking in the context, it means is that Christ Jesus (Peace on Him) is on the same side as God. They are one in purpose. Since no one can snatch the apostles from the hands of God, hence no one can snatch the apostles from Christ Jesus (Peace on Him).


Christians misunderstand that Jesus (Peace on Him) is claiming to be God. Such an interpretation simply does not fit in the context of previous verses. Interestingly this group of Jews also suffered from the same misunderstanding.


John 10: 31-34


The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?” The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.”


So Christ Jesus (Peace on Him) explained what he really intended to say:


John 10:34-37


Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken— do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.”


Jesus (Peace on Him) explained:



  1. In Jewish law it is written that, ‘I said, you are gods’. However Jews do not consider this as blasphemy since it is not taken literally.

  2. Similarly what he said was not a blasphemy. He was not literally claiming to be God.

  3. Christ Jesus (Peace on Him) was performing miracles on behalf of God.

  4. These people cannot deny these miracles. As a result they should believe that these miracles are from God.

  5. The works are not just Jesus’s (Peace on Him) works. Rather they belong to God also. It was in this sense that he meant, the Father is in me and I am in the Father.”


It is the turn of my esteemed opponent to present his case.


AlwaysMoreThanYou

Con

All verses taken from the Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition found on Bible Gateway (http://www.biblegateway.com...).

Arguments:

There were many things that Jesus did not expressly speak of during his ministry, as he knew of the coming of the Holy Ghost, which was to teach all truth (cf. John 16:13), and for that reason the Trinity doctrine is not formally laid out in the Gospels. Despite that, there are many telling statements from which the Trinity doctrine can be extrapolated. While Jesus did not directly teach the doctrine of the Trinity, it is an implicit teaching throughout the Gospel accounts according to the four evangelists, Sts. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, as I intend to show by the following arguments.

I will start with the evidence of the deity of Jesus.

Acceptance of Worship

Worship is for God alone (cf. Luke 4:8, Matthew 4:10)

However, throughout the Gospel accounts, Jesus is often worshipped.

'And they that were in the boat came and adored him, saying: Indeed thou art the Son of God.' - Matthew 14:33

'And behold Jesus met them, saying: All hail. But they came up and took hold of his feet, and adored him.' - Matthew 28:9

'And he said: I believe, Lord. And falling down, he adored him.' - John 9:38

If Jesus was not God, he would be making a grave error in not correcting this otherwise blasphemous behaviour. It would be even worse to permit things like this:

'Thomas answered, and said to him: My Lord, and my God.' - John 20:28

Jesus responds to Thomas, but not by saying anything along the lines of 'Woah, I'm not God.'. This is a circumstance where omission of an expected response speaks louder than an explicit declaration.

Son of God

Jesus on numerous occassions either stated that he was the Son of God, or agreed that he was the Son of God.

'(61) But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said to him: Art thou the Christ the Son of the blessed God? (62) And Jesus said to him: I am. And you shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of the power of God, and coming with the clouds of heaven.' - Mark 14:61-62

The son of God could be no less than God, as was stated truly by the Jews in John 5:

'Hereupon therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he did not only break the sabbath, but also said God was his Father, making himself equal to God.' - John 5:18

Jesus was definitely beyond human

'For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.' - Matthew 18:20

That's not normal.

'(17) Therefore doth the Father love me: because I lay down my life, that I may take it again. (18) No man taketh it away from me: but I lay it down of myself, and I have power to lay it down: and I have power to take it up again. This commandment have I received of my Father.' - John 10:17-18

Jesus had power over life and death.

'And he said to them: You are from beneath, I am from above. You are of this world, I am not of this world.' - John 8:23


'And now glorify thou me, O Father, with thyself, with the glory which I had, before the world was, with thee.' - John 17:5

Jesus was with God in glory since before the world was.

Jesus claimed to be God

'(10) And all my things are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. (11) And now I am not in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name whom thou has given me; that they may be one, as we also are.' - John 17:10-11

Jesus and the Father are one, and share all things.

The Holy Ghost is only briefly mentioned in the Gospel accounts, but I will bring up what verses I can.

The Holy Ghost is God

'And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.' - Matthew 12:32


'But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost, shall never have forgiveness, but shall be guilty of an everlasting sin.' - Mark 3:29

'And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but to him that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven.' - Luke 12:10

Truly for a sin to be so great, it must be directly against God himself.

'But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.' - John 14:26

The Holy Ghost would teach all things.

'God is a spirit; and they that adore him, must adore him in spirit and in truth.' - John 4:24

God is a spirit, the Holy Ghost.

The Trinity

The Trinity is encapsulated in Matthew 28:19

'Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.'

The name (singular) of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. While my opponent righly points out that this does not say that the three are the same or equivalent, that can be revealed in other passages/sayings. This is merely the verse that binds it all together, showing the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost to be three persons in one God, forever and ever.

Rebuttals:

Unfortunately, I am running out of space, and may not be able to address all of my opponent's arguments. I won't try to drop anything, but some responses may need to be elaborated on in future rounds.

One thing that it is important to note is the Hypostatic Union, formally declared by the holy Synod of Chalcedon. Jesus was both human and divine, and it is his divine self that is the second person of the Trinity... or something. I'll probably become a heretic if I try too hard to explain this, but the basic point is that Jesus was both God and man. The Hypostatic Union finds its basis in all the verses showing the divine nature of Jesus, and all the verses showing the human nature of Jesus (cf. Luke 24:39 as an example).

Matthew 28:18-20

Jesus was given back the authority that he voluntarily forfeited to assume the meanest role, to become by his own will the lowest of the lowly. All his authority was returned to him after his resurrection.

Mark 12:28-30

The Trinity doctrine holds that God is one, and it is certainly in no way contrary to anything to love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. Jesus was quoting Deuteronomy 6:4, which is why he addressed God as 'our God'.

Luke 18:18-19 and Mark 10:17-18

It is important to note that these people who came to Jesus asked him how they might inherit eternal life, which is clearly something no mere man can offer. Jesus responded as he did to make the listeners think about how they ask him for what God alone could deliver while believing him a man, as the askers certainly did.

Mark 1:35 and Luke 22:39-41

Jesus, being himself both fully a man and fully God, had every cause as a man to pray to his divine Father, God. Thus, he had every reason to glorify God and pray to him, while himself being divine.

As my opponent has so masterfully predicted one of my arguments, I have decided not to go through the effort of even raising it in the first place, since I'm not sure if I have enough room left to adequately address it. To be annoying, I dragged a verse out of John 17 that pretty much says the same thing, but in a different and more clear context.

Conclusion:

'[T]hus the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; and nevertheless there are not three gods, but there is one God; so the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, and the Holy Spirit is Lord; and yet there are not three lords, but there is one Lord; because just as we are compelled by Christian truth to confess singly each one person as God, and also Lord, so we are forbidden by the Catholic religion to say there are three gods or three Lords.' - from the Creed of St. Athanasius
Debate Round No. 2
baggins

Pro

baggins forfeited this round.
AlwaysMoreThanYou

Con

I was going to be a jerk and raise another 8k characters' worth of arguments, but I changed my mind at the last moment.

Extend all my arguments for now.
Debate Round No. 3
baggins

Pro

baggins forfeited this round.
AlwaysMoreThanYou

Con

My arguments were never addressed, so I urge a vote for Con.
Debate Round No. 4
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by GarretKadeDupre 4 years ago
GarretKadeDupre
nvm im starting it
Posted by GarretKadeDupre 4 years ago
GarretKadeDupre
Someone challenge me to this same debate! I will be Con ( I believe Jesus DID teach the concept of the Trinity)
Posted by baggins 4 years ago
baggins
My sincere apologies for forfeiting. It was an extraordinary busy week for me and I was almost inactive on DDO. I was hoping to manage a few hours to write a response, however regretfully I could not do it.
Posted by Romans1.20 4 years ago
Romans1.20
Genesis1- God is talking about time, space, and matter. In the beginning=(time) God created heaven=(space) andthe earth=(matter).Whatis Time-pass, present, future. Whatis Space-width,depth,height.Whatis Earth/Matter-solid,liquid,gas What are you a human- body,soul,spirit.Or mind,body,soul. See the understandingoftrinity is allaroundus.ReadRoman1:20(inmyown word Romans 1:20 says that God say if you can't understand the trinity look at what I made. Atom-protons,neutrons,electrons.Tree-root,trunk,leaves.Music-melody,harmony,rhythm.The understandingis allarounduso
Posted by BennyW 4 years ago
BennyW
Does baggins find it offensive that he is debating a pig?
7 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Vote Placed by emospongebob527 4 years ago
emospongebob527
bagginsAlwaysMoreThanYouTied
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Reasons for voting decision: FF
Vote Placed by Man-is-good 4 years ago
Man-is-good
bagginsAlwaysMoreThanYouTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Con managed to demonstrate that not only does context establish that Christ was vicariously divine, but in both his adoration and worship, proclamations of control and power, and statements directing worship, "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" establish him as part of a divine triumvirate but that the contexts Pro provided, if extended to encompass other verses, demonstrate the coequal nature of Christ's existence with God, in existence and in stature. Con hence wins since Pro's forfeiture precluded any response to his already convincing arguments, hence legitimizing the cession of points for conduct and argumentation.
Vote Placed by drafterman 4 years ago
drafterman
bagginsAlwaysMoreThanYouTied
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Reasons for voting decision: FF
Vote Placed by RationalMadman 4 years ago
RationalMadman
bagginsAlwaysMoreThanYouTied
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Reasons for voting decision: yes it is
Vote Placed by TrasguTravieso 4 years ago
TrasguTravieso
bagginsAlwaysMoreThanYouTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Conduct - FF Arguments go to con even discounting the fact that they were never addressed.
Vote Placed by Heineken 4 years ago
Heineken
bagginsAlwaysMoreThanYouTied
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Reasons for voting decision: FF
Vote Placed by Nur-Ab-Sal 4 years ago
Nur-Ab-Sal
bagginsAlwaysMoreThanYouTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Con secures a victory from Pro's forfeiture. Vive l'Empereur.