Christianity can be proven as fact
Debate Rounds (5)
First round: acceptance
All other rounds: anything goes
James Gates has given demonstrations of adinkas, specifically Hamming self correcting or "error correcting" code in the construct of the equations used to describe our universe. This is 1's and 0's, and not just random 1's and 0's, but a specific kind of code: Self Correcting Computer Code.
James Gates, Scientific Advisor to the U.S. Executive Branch
Example of Hammins Binary Code
The information in DNA is stored as a code made up of four chemical bases.
The DNA in human beings consists of around three billion bases, and more than 99% of those bases are the same in every single human being.
The order of these bases determines the information available for constructing and holding up an organism, synonymous with the way that letters of the alphabet appear in a specific order to create words and sentences.
Example of a Genetic Code Table-
Just like you can program electronics to fulfill commands, DNA instructs and commands the cell. DNA is a 3 billion letter program that commands the cell to behave in a certain way. It is a full blown program of instructions.
I have seen pigs walk and birds fly, but I have never seen a pig fly. It will be when pigs fly that one will convince me that this all happened by chance.
In an interview with Ben Stein, Richard Dawkins(Atheist, author of "The God Delusion) said, "And I suppose it's possible that you might find evidence for that if you look at the details of biochemistry, molecular biology, you might find a signature of some sort of designer."
The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.
We have our eye on billions of solar systems and galaxies. Not a flicker, not a peep. Looks like it's just us.
The Fermi paradox is the contradiction between the lack of evidence and high probability estimates, given by the Drake equation, for the existence of extraterrestrial civilizations.
It states that by probability alone, just our own piece of the galaxy should be teaming with intelligent life. Where's everybody at?
It looks like we are the only ones in deep deep infinite space.
"And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh...and men shall see visions and shall have dreams."
Dreams about what?
Muslims are "seeing Jesus" in their dreams and in mass.
Not Christians, but Muslims. This is not Christians making this claim. These are Muslims who do not believe Jesus is God in any way, shape or form, yet they are claiming to see Jesus in Heaven being bowed down to. And this isn't a fringe group. The numbers are bizarre.
Christ told us how things would go, step by step.
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all.
Christianity moved rapidly and is now the world's largest religion, with over 2.4 billion adherents.
2 Peter 3:3
Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come.
"In the last times there will be people who laugh about God."
There are many on this very forum who mock God from every direction. Included are threads like:
-God has a fixation with menstruation
-The Christian God is evil
Richard Dawkins wrote a book called "The God Delusion", and the late Christopher Hitchens wrote a book called "God is Not Great".
At that time many will begin to turn away from the faith...
Christianity thrived in the West but is now in steep decline, as Chloe8 pointed out in a thread about "the decline of Christianity in the UK". In America it was 86% in 1990. Now it is 70.6%
Another anti Christ religion with an infallable prophet will try to take over in the end.
"They will wage war against the Lamb."(Christ)
When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed."
Hadith Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 73, Number 224: Narrated by Abu Huraira
Allah's Apostle said, "The most awful name in Allah's sight on the Day of Resurrection, will be that of a man calling himself the king of kings.
Islam will soon be the biggest religion on Earth.
The Antichrist spirit and the False Prophet who gives him authority will have a specific agenda to kill as many Jews and Christians as possible. - Rev 13:7, Dan 7:21, Dan 11:30
And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the Son of God; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them.
I will cast terror into the hearts of the disbelievers. Therefore strike off their heads."
"I saw those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus."
ISIS has declared a "War on the cross". Christian churches all across the Middle East, including namely Saudi Arabia and Turkey have been ordered to be destroyed.
ISIS has beheaded an unknown number of people, sadly, including small children for not renouncing Jesus Christ. The United States government called what is happening "Christian genocide".
A prophecy against Damascus. Behold, Damascus will be taken away, and it shall become a ruinous heap.
Because of the years of Civil War amidst the Syrian conflict, Damascus has been reduced to a wasteland as is exampled below.
In the book of Genesis, God drew a line in the sand. He sent Hagar away from Abraham with her son Ishmael. He told Abraham that his children would come out of Isaac and would NOT come out of Ishmael.
Isaac begat a child who was to be called Israel. Israel was the father of the Jews. The Jews begat Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ begat His followers later called Christians.
Ishmael is the father of the Arab tribes, that is to say, the father of the Arabs, the father of Muhammed, and the father of Islam.
His hand will be against everyone and everyone's hand against him, and he will live in hostility towards all."
The Bible depicts an epic battle of hostility of Ishmael's seed towards Isaac's seed until the very end of days. This will end in an epic battle in the end of days, and the great bsttle of all of human history at the Valley of Armageddon. Armageddon is where? In Northern Israel. Northern Israel borders South Syria, the environment of the great political nervousness of today. So far, the Syrian conflict has included bombing by Russia, Israel, The U.S., and France. It has included a 350,000 man buildup of Saudi troops on its Northern boundry and a horrific plethera of ISIS, rebal, Syrian, and Western forces. A cease fire showed promise, but is now beginning to crumble...
What must be understood is that when the Bible's last words were written, Islam would not exist for another 700 years.
Is there a giant conflict between the seed of Isaac and Ishmael to this very day? Absolutely. 100%.
Death to America, UK, Israel Chants-
Poland is 86% Christian. Here are chants from the "150,000 man anti-Islam March"
And so it all begins.
The kingdom of God is at hand......
The definition of fact is something known to exist or something that has happened.
Clearly Christianity cannot be proven to be a fact. It is one of thousands of religions, each with their own unique claim of being the one true religion. Each of these religions has its own beliefs. There is no way of knowing which of these religions if any are true. Pro makes a considerable number of points intended to prove that a god created the universe. This actually has no relevance in this debate as proving a god created the universe does not distinguish which one of the thousands of God's worshipped by theists around the world actually created the universe. It's also possible a god not known to humanity created the universe.
It is possible to prove that Christianity is actually a false religion. Therefore Christianity is not a fact.
Christians claim Jesus was the messiah prophesised in the old testament. However it is clear he was not the messiah prophesised because;
1. Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies.
2. Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah.
3. Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are mistranslations.
4. Jewish belief is based on national revelation.
The word "Messiah" is an English rendering of the Hebrew word Mashiach, which means "anointed." It usually refers to a person initiated into God's service by being anointed with oil. (Exodus 29:7, 1-Kings 1:39, 2-Kings 9:3)
(1) Jesus Did Not Fulfill the Messianic Prophecies
What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? One of the central themes of biblical prophecy is the promise of a future age of perfection characterized by universal peace and recognition of God. (Isaiah 2:1-4, 32:15-18, 60:15-18; Zephaniah 3:9; Hosea 2:20-22; Amos 9:13-15; Micah 4:1-4; Zechariah 8:23, 14:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34)
Specifically, the Bible says he will:
1. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
2. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
3. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
4. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world " on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).
If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be the Messiah.
Because no one has ever fulfilled the Bible's description of this future King, Jews still await the coming of the Messiah. All past Messianic claimants, including Jesus of Nazareth, Bar Cochba and Shabbtai Tzvi have been rejected. Christianity is clearly false as Jews at the alleged time of Jesus's time on earth would not have rejected a real messiah. It's inconceivable a real messiah could not convince ordinary people he was the real messiah.
Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming. There is no scripture in the old testament to support their claims. It is clear the messiah prophesised will only require one visit to fulfil the prophecies. Therefore Jesus is not the messiah prophesised and Christianity is obviously false.
(2) Jesus Did Not Embody the Personal Qualifications of the Messiah
A. Messiah as Prophet
The Messiah will become the greatest prophet in history, second only to Moses. (Targum " Isaiah 11:2; Maimonides " Teshuva 9:2)
Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry, a situation which has not existed since 300 BCE. During the time of Ezra, when the majority of Jews remained in Babylon, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets " Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.
Jesus appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended, and thus could not be a prophet.
B. Descendant of David
Many prophetic passages speak of a descendant of King David who will rule Israel during the age of perfection. (Isaiah 11:1-9; Jeremiah 23:5-6, 30:7-10, 33:14-16; Ezekiel 34:11-31, 37:21-28; Hosea 3:4-5)
The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10, Isaiah 11:1, Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Ezekiel 34:23-24). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father " and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David.
According to Jewish sources, the Messiah will be born of human parents and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, nor will he possess supernatural qualities.
C. Torah Observance
The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)
Throughout the Christian "New Testament," Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. For example, John 9:14 records that Jesus made a paste in violation of Shabbat, which caused the Pharisees to say (verse 16), "He does not observe Shabbat!"
(3) Mistranslated Verses "Referring" to Jesus
Biblical verses can only be understood by studying the original Hebrew text " which reveals many discrepancies in the Christian translation.
A. Virgin Birth
The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus' birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.
B. Suffering Servant
Christianity claims that Isaiah chapter 53 refers to Jesus, as the "suffering servant."
In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews ("Israel") are regarded as one unit. Throughout Jewish scripture, Israel is repeatedly called, in the singular, the "Servant of God" (see Isaiah 43:8). In fact, Isaiah states no less than 11 times in the chapters prior to 53 that the Servant of God is Israel.
When read correctly, Isaiah 53 clearly [and ironically] refers to the Jewish people being "bruised, crushed and as sheep brought to slaughter" at the hands of the nations of the world. These descriptions are used throughout Jewish scripture to graphically describe the suffering of the Jewish people (see Psalm 44).
Isaiah 53 concludes that when the Jewish people are redeemed, the nations will recognize and accept responsibility for the inordinate suffering and death of the Jews.
(4) Jewish Belief is Based Solely on National Revelation
Throughout history, thousands of religions have been started by individuals, attempting to convince people that he or she is God's true prophet. But personal revelation is an extremely weak basis for a religion because one can never know if it is indeed true. Since others did not hear God speak to this person, they have to take his word for it. Even if the individual claiming personal revelation performs miracles, they do not prove he is a genuine prophet. All the miracles show " assuming they are genuine " is that he has certain powers. It has nothing to do with his claim of prophecy.
Therefore it can be conclusively proven Jesus is not the messiah prophesised. Christianity is a religion based on the life of Jesus who they claim was the messiah prophesised. Therefore Christianity is clearly a false religion. This refutes any claims by my opponent as the new testament is clearly a man made piece of scripture with no divine influence.
Con mentioned Bar Cochoba and Shabbtai.
"Bar Cochba and Shabbtai Tzvi have been rejected."
They do not have 2.4 billion adherents, and they fulfill Christ's decleration that there would be false messiahs come.
Con is making a claim that Isaiah 53 is about all of the Jewish people and not a person. Let's look.
1)Con's claim is inconsistant with Isaiah 9:6.
"But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed."
The Jewish nation has never been pierced, nor has it healed anyone.
for the transgression of my people he was punished.
They are "my people" and "he" in one sentence, both being the Jews?
though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.
Con herself has pointed out, in her own threads, violence by the Jews in the OT.
5)"..the LORD makes his life an offering for sin.."
The entire Jewish nation was an offering for sin? The concept is inconsistant with the verses provided.
"Christianity is clearly false as Jews at the alleged time of Jesus's time on earth would not have rejected a real messiah."
1)All of his apostles and numerous followers were Jews.
2)The Jewish prophet Isaiah stated about the messiah:
He was despised and rejected by men, a man of suffering, and familiar with pain...he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
"It is clear the messiah prophesised will only require one visit to fulfil the prophecies."
"They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son."
They must pierce Him before He is the king.
Isaiah 53 is a passage that speaks of the one who is referenced as the "suffering servant".
The passage refers to the messiah as deemed "stricken by God". He is pierced for our transgressions. The Lord laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
In Isaiah 53:7 we are told "He was led like a lamb to the slaughter."
In Isaiah 53:8, "He was cut off from the land of the living."
This depicts a messiah, not as a king ruling in omnipotence, but as a sacrifice from God. This clearly depicts that He must die first. THEN He must come again to be king.
"Jesus appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended."
Sure. And Jesus was born, and in 2,366 years the Jews never had another prophecy. Why?
"Descend from David, Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father.."
He actually referenced His Father more times than one can count. If one wants semantics, His father would be father of all He has chosen, meaning Father of David, who is Father of Mary, who is mother of Jesus. Jesus' Father gives Him lineage by any law or rule. Besides, it is not the Jews who determine what God permits. It is God Himself.
Isaiah 9:6 conceptualizes who the Messiah is.
The Jews themselves did not come to Con's interpretations.
Jews of the time referred to Jesus as the "Son of David".
Con says the Messiah will not have "supernatural ability.
According to Judaism's own perspective, the Messiah is predestined for victory and supernaturally cannot be defeated.
It also is not Jews who decide things for God. It is God Himself.
Millions of Jews who know the Jewish perspective have had no problem accepting Christ.
Here is a list of Jewish rabis who have accepted Jesus. Even many Jews themselves disagree with Con's assertions.
"There is no way of knowing which of these religions are true."
Or is there?
Religions who have an antichrist and infallable prophet, give authority to a "new monotheistic god, hates Christians and Jews, commands them be beheaded, sets up a graven image(that "speaks") that its followers bow to, with a god who meets the descriptions of Satan(murderer, liar, wants worship as God, "great deceiver, denies Christ, etc), teaches lying as a religious concept, etc do not just pop into existance every day.
Satan Biblical Description vs Allah-
Islam commands Muslims lie to infidels.(taqiya, tawriya, maruna, kitman, etc)
Allah commands the murder of all unbelievers.
The Quran labels Allah as "The greatest of deceivers.
The Quran denies Jesus as the Son of God which be Biblical definition is antichrist.
Islam says that in the end of days "THE BEAST" will address the unbelievers and admonish them for their lack of attention towards "God".
"When the Word is fulfilled against them, the unjust, we shall produce FROM THE EARTH a BEAST: He will speak to them, for that mankind did not believe with assurance."
"R01;Qur'an, sura 27 (An-Naml), ayat 82
"The beast will strike the head, and it will be brighten the face of the believer with the staff and "He is destined for Paradise" will be marked on his FOREHEAD."
The Bible warned this was coming-
Then I saw a beast, coming OUT OF THE EARTH."
"It also forced all people... to receive a MARK on their FOREHEADS."
The Islamic "Messiah", the Mahdi, matches the Biblical Antichrist step for step.
Revelation 16:13 mentions the "false prophet" who gives authority to a being claimed to be God and is worshipped as God.
Revelation 13:15 says that they bow to a graven image that "speaks". The false prophet sets it up.
Muhammad set the stone in its current place in the wall of the Kaaba.
Pics of the graven image
They bow to it.
Islam says it speaks, by what means is unknown.
"this stone has a pair of eyes, ears and a tongue and it opened its mouth upon the order of Allah."
Islam claims the stone represents Islamin that it fell from Heaven, was white, and is now black and led Adam and Eve in Paradise. In the Bible Satan "fell from Heaven" and led Adam and Eve astray away from God. In the Biblical book of Revelation, Satan is worshipped as God.
What are the odds of a religion matching Revelation's antichrist description matching in this many distinct, nonsematic ways? Pretty much zero, unless the prophecy was guided by someone, namely God.
A book that Christians claim is the true word of god Is clearly difficult to understand and open to many different interpretations. If the bible was the word of god you would expect it be be very easy to understand and written in a clear and obvious manner. If this was the case there would not be 33, 000 different opinions on how to interpret the bible.
If the scriptures were inspired by God and then accurately copied by scribes, we would expect to see a fairly rigorous consistency among the books. The best way to test this hypothesis is to examine the four gospels, as they all claim to describe the same events. What we see are numerous contradictions, including:
1. The genealogies of Joseph in Matthew and Luke disagree significantly
2. Luke has Mary and Joseph travelling from their home in Nazareth in Galilee to Bethlehem in Judea for the birth of Jesus (Luke 2:4). Matthew, in contradiction to Luke, says that it was only after the birth of Jesus that Mary and Joseph resided in Nazareth, and then only because they were afraid to return to Judea (Matthew 2:21-23).
3. All of the gospels disagree on who found the empty tomb. In Matthew, it is Mary Magdalene and the other Mary. In Luke, it is the women who had come with him out of Galilee, including Mary Magdalene, Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, plus two others. In Mark, it is Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome. In John, Mary Magdalene found the stone removed and ran back to get Peter and another disciple.
4. There are also major contradictions about what they saw at the tomb. In Mark, a man in a white robe was sitting in the tomb. In Luke, it was two men in dazzling apparel. In Matthew, and angel was standing on the stone that had been removed. In John, Mary and Peter and the other disciple initially find just an empty tomb. Peter and the other disciple enter the tomb and find only the wrappings. Then Peter and the other disciple leave and Mary looks in the tomb to find two angels in white. After a short conversation with the angels, Mary turns around to find Jesus.
The following link shows more of the dozens of known biblical contradictions.
Another problem with christianity is the forged ending to the Gospel of Mark.
Mark was the first documented gospel, and it is notoriously silent on many points added to the subsequent gospels. It contains no account of a virgin birth, or any birth for that matter, and no mention of Joseph as Jesus"s father.
But the crux of this point is that the original version of this gospel contains no mention of Jesus appearing and talking to his disciples after the resurrection. A unanimous consensus of Biblical scholars agree that the earliest manuscripts of Mark end at verse 16: 6-8, which is as follows:
Don"t be alarmed," he said. "You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him. But go, tell his disciples and Peter, "He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you."" Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.
The early Christians were not satisfied with this ending, so various versions of alternate endings were devised. One of these was selected for inclusion in the KIng James Bible and is now documented therein and in other translations as Mark 16:9-19:
Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils. And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept. And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not. After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country. And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them. Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
The history of this matter is discussed further at the following website:
This creates many problems for Christianity. First, it brings into question the authenticity of the scriptures as a whole. This forgery was caught because we have an early manuscript of Mark, but, lacking the original, we do not know how many other forgeries were also added to that document. Second, it exposes the fact that the early Christians were not averse to adding to scripture tales and stories of questionable authenticity. In effect, it means that they had no problem making things up to embellish the accounts. Third, the forged ending portion of the Book of Mark contains demonstrably false statements. Many Christians have died handling serpents in this manner, many have died of poisoning, and many have died after being prayed for.
The fabricated scriptures at the end of Mark are a Rosetta Stone for recognizing the questionable historical accuracy of the scriptures. They are, in effect, telling the reader to be wary of everything written in the Bible.
The selection of the gospels to be included in the Bible was made by a council of Christian bishops convened in Nicea in Bithynia by the Roman Emperor Constantine I in AD 325. At this council, four gospels were selected from a total of approximately 60 that were in use at the time. Three of the four gospels selected are called the synoptic gospels, Mark, Luke, and Matthew. These were not independent efforts, but had many elements borrowed and shared among them. The fourth gospel, John, is very different from the other three and presents a somewhat contradictory theology.
The other 56 or so gospels that were discarded do not agree for the most part with the four that were selected. Examples are the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Judas, the Gospel of Peter, the Gospel of the Nazarenes, the Gospel of the Ebionites, and the Gospel of the Hebrews.
It is likely that the truth of what happened lies buried amid the numerous tales told by all of these gospels, with various true and fictional elements scattered throughout. But, what should be troubling to a questioning believer is that the council undoubtedly preferentially selected the gospels that were favorable to the Romans (i.e., the ones that made them look good) and excluded whatever did not flatter them. It is certain that this process resulted in a whitewashed portrayal of history.
The clearly unreliable and contradictory nature of the bible refutes claims that Christianity must be true because the bible says so.
"If the bible was the word of god you would expect it be be very easy to understand and written in a clear and obvious manner."
"This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand."
In Matthew 13:19 Christ tells them literally what the parable meant. Why did He tell THEM? They seek God and do not seek to stand against Him. Christ is clear. Those who do not seek God will not ever and are not meant to ever understand. This is how God speaks in the Bible, in the language that He and His child only speak. This is a concept that the secular world does not understand, and according to God cannot understand.
"The genealogies of Joseph in Matthew and Luke disagree significantly."
Matthew is tracing the primary/ biological, lineage while Luke is tracing while taking into account occurences of “levirate marriage".
"All of the gospels disagree on who found the empty tomb."
It's neccessary to keep in mind that a partial report is not a false report. Just because each gospel author doesn't report every detail of a story doesn't mean it's wrong. If Mary found the empty tomb, then told others, the story would be told as "that Mary found the empty tomb with so many angels." If Mary Magdeline comes along later and finds the tomb empty, then tells others, their story is Magdeline found the empty tomb with so many angels." Neither report is false. People tell the story from their perspective. What we have by having different accounts of the stories, are accounts we know were not purposefully altered to fit nicely together, but honest reports of events.
"The fabricated scriptures at the end of Mark."
No one can tell us what was "fabricated" without being there themself.
"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."
The gospel "good news" is not a series of books and loads of information. It is a tiny amount of information.
1 Corinthians 15:3-4 combined with Romans 10:13 are the gospel. If nothing else were conveyed but these verses, the gospel would give us reason and salvation with no other information at all.
"Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved."
"Christians have died handling serpents in this manner, many have died of poisoning, and many have died after being prayed for."
We have no idea who these people are, what they believed, their motives, nor their actual faith. The Bible is also clear to never test God.
"They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them."
These are also words of a person who spoke in allegories. Christ called the Pharisee priests snakes and vipers and told the disciples to "drink His blood", (which was wine)neither of which were literal speech. He spoke of "raising the temple after it was destroyed". He was speaking of Himself. HE was the temple.
The Council of Nicaea was composed of about 300 members from every work of life. They came up with a creed that they could agree defined the point of the gospel. Christ is God. Christ died for sins. Christ rose from the dead. Accept Christ for salvation. The gospel is simple.
The council came together in this manner because there was dispute being caused between the Orthodxy and what was taught by Arius. The canon was not created by the Council of Nicaea, but was called to come to a common ground between the 2 factions. It was a mediated discussion. In the end the council agreed on what they felt was heretical vs nonheretical. The canon was already established before the council. An "official canon" was defined later, but was already established as the doctrine prior to the "official canon". The books of the canon of the New Testament were written namely in the first century.
"the council undoubtedly preferentially selected the gospels that were favorable to the Romans, the ones that made them look good."
The Bible indicates that the Antichrist/Throne of Satan comes from the Roman empire. Not very flattering...Why didn't they erase Revelation 2:13 which speaks in the worst of possible lights against Pergamist, so calling it the "throne of Satan"? Especially seeing that in 324 AD, Constantine chose Byzantium to be the capital of the Roman Empire, naming it New Rome. It would be logically inconsistant to change the canon to make the Roman Empire "look good" while it claimed you the "seat of Satan" himself, seeing it was a Christianised empire.
Sheikh Hussein, Top Shiite Cleric in Damascus, Syria -
"I think the time has come for us in the Islamic world to stop asking if Jesus Christ died and to start asking why...”
There are many questions that get tough for the atheist. One is the estimates of the world's population quickly turning into hardly anyone only a few thousand years back. Why is the history of the modern human being so short? Where did all of these languages(6,200) come from in such a short time? Have the New Atheists been deceived and sold a bill of goods?
The big seller of the New Atheism was Darwinian evolution. Richard Dawkins had stated that it "was a fact" in order to get a plethera of coverts and raise a generation of Atheists. Yet many scientists completely reject it as even being worthy of being called a scientific theory. It defies the fossil record and the Cambrian record. For example, the prominent secular molecular biologist named David Berlinski was an exposer of the theory through testing and the fossil record fully rejecting darwinian evolution saying it has zero evidence for being true. Atheists were sold a bill of goods.
I have so far demonstrated:
1)Atheists have been lied to in order to sell them a particular dogma.
2)Islam fulfills prophecy in improbable ways.
3)Christ offered an omniscient report of how the gospel history would be before there was a religion at all.
4)The equations used to describe the reality of our universe are simply "Hammin's Binary Self Correcting Error Code"
5)The world populations and young history of intelligent humanity going into the past demands a dramatic move to get to where we are today.
6)Muslims, not Christians are seeing the divine Christ in dreams in massive numbers.
"In Matthew 13:19 Christ tells them literally what the parable meant. Why did He tell THEM? They seek God and do not seek to stand against Him. Christ is clear. Those who do not seek God will not ever and are not meant to ever understand. This is how God speaks in the Bible, in the language that He and His child only speak. This is a concept that the secular world does not understand, and according to God cannot understand".
Pro claims that God intended for the bible to be difficult to understand for non Christians. This seems a strange thing for a god to do. Surely it would be logical to make it clear and easy to understand. The fact Christians themselves struggle to understand the bible, hence the 33, 000 denominations also refutes pro's claim that the bible is easy to understand for God's "children" as pro describes Christian's. For example pro being a protestant would disagree on the interpretation of many parts of the bible with for example a Catholic. The following website outlines a few of the differences between the two denominations.
Pro makes the following claim:
"Matthew is tracing the primary/ biological, lineage while Luke is tracing while taking into account occurences of levirate marriage".
He provides a link explaining what levitate marriage is but fails to show that this is what Luke's geneaologies is based on. His assumption it is based on levitate marriage is unsubstantiated and without evidence. It certainly cannot be proved as fact. What is a fact is that the two gospels have contradictory geneaologies.
Pro makes a claim that the contradictory accounts found in all the gospels over who found the empty tomb Jesus supposedly rose from can be explained by them being partial accounts. Even if they were partial accounts the significant differences in all four accounts refute such a claim. A scripture inspired by a god could not contain such significant contradictions.
Pro offers his opinion over what a Christian needs to believe to obtain salvation. However this is merely his opinion. The 33, 000 denominations all have their own views on what is needed and the 2. 2 billion Christians in the world often come to individual opinions over what is needed. Quite simply one individuals opinion is not an effective way to prove something. Especially when the individual does not actually know with certainty what happens after death as they are yet to experience it.
No Christian can prove an afterlife exists as they are yet to die. Afterlife is simply a theory with no supporting evidence outside of religious scripture compiled by the many thousands of religions humans choose to believe in. Even if an afterlife exists it is impossible to know which if any of the world's religions have the correct interpretation of it.
If Christianity was a fact it would seem strange that misleading verses about handling serpents would be included in its holy book. It seems strange that allegories of any kind would be included in such important information. Christians come to their own conclusions over what parts of the bible are to be taken literally and which parts are not. It is clear that they all have to guess which biblical stories are real events and historical accounts and which ones are merely allegories. If it was clear what parts of the bible were intended to be taken literally and which parts were not then you would expect much less variation in how individual Christians interpret the bible.
The council of nicaea had to consider the fact that if the gospels they chose did not look favourably on the Romans then the Roman rulers at that time may have condemned the council and restarted movement's to persecute Christians. The council members were also citizens of the Roman empire so likely had natural bias towards it and it's cultural history and values. No evidence exists proving that any god had any influence on the council. Claims the holy spirit influenced their decision are simply unsubstantiated. As it cannot be proven the holy spirit exists it is impossible to varify it's alleged influence on the council of nicaea. The presence of 56 false gospel books also casts serious doubt on the validity of the bible. If Christianity was true you would not expect any other gospel books to exist.
As Islam recognizes Jesus as a prophet means it's unsurprising a Muslim cleric believes he existed. The opinion of this man has no relevance to whether Christianity is true or not. Muslims dreaming about Jesus is also irrelevant. People dream about Santa Claus and the tooth fairy. Dreams don't make things real or prove anything.
The rapid increase in human population in recent times has been caused by increasing birth rates and decreasing death rates. This has been caused by a variety of factors;
1. Improved medical knowledge.
3. Improved surgical techniques.
5. Improved education on health related issues.
6. Human technology development allowing the species to dominate other species of animals that used to compete with humans for resources.
The human population is six times greater today than it was in 1800 as this link shows:
Before 1800 and the medical, technological and educational advances made by humans population growth followed a more gradual trend.
This point made by pro does not prove Christianity in any way. The fact a rapid increase in human population in the last 200 years has occured is completely irrelevant to this debate.
Pro claims the theory of evolution has been disproved. This is a false claim. The following link provides 5 proofs of evolution, disproving pro's claim.
The theory of evolution is supported by an overwhelming majority of scientist's. The following link shows this:
Therefore pro has made a false statement. It is misleading to use an example of one scientist when 99. 9% of scientist's accept the theory of evolution is true.
The following link even shows that many Christian denominations accept the theory of evolution is true.
The pope, supposedly the figurehead of Christianity globally accepts the of evolution and the big bang theory are true.
A major flaw in Christianity is that accounts of Jesus"s life in the gospels were written well after the events allegedly occurred. The crucifixion of Jesus is believed to have occurred around 29 AD. The best estimates date the gospels as follows:
Mark: AD 68-73
Matthew: AD 70-100
Luke: AD 80-100
John: AD 90-110
The large time lag between the life of Jesus and the documentation of his life indicates the eyewitnesses of Jesus"s ministry were dead by the time of the gospel writings, either of natural causes or as a result of the Jewish-Roman war that began in AD 66. The band of Jewish followers of Jesus, led by his brother James, no longer existed. The only Christians remaining were the Romans and other gentiles who were followers of Paul"s concept of Christianity. Consequently, the gospels are told in a manner consistent with Paul"s theology and also with an anti-Jewish, pro-Roman bias. One of the best examples of this bias is the exoneration of Pontius Pilate and the condemnation of the Jews for Jesus"s death (Matthew 27:24), a fabrication of the first order (and one that has had tragic consequences for Jewish people for the past two millennia). Another is the story of the Roman centurion who was allegedly commended by Jesus for having more faith than anybody else in Israel (Matthew 8:5-13).
Fred Hoyle, atheist, and the "Father of Nucleosynthesis" had a "contempt for orthodoxy", but stated his atheism 'greatly shaken' by the indication of purpose in science.
If a married man died childless, his brother was required to marry his wife to provide a son to continue the dead man's line.
"..scientist's accept the theory of evolution is true."
Many, many articles have been written by secular experts rejecting such claims.
We are still yet to observe, test, or measure a change in kind. Bacteria always become... bacteria. We have seen variations within the construct of entities. This is not the magical Atheist version of Darwinism. Atheist darwinism is a parasite that has been attached to actual science to dishonestly give it false validity. Darwinian evolution does not meet the bare minimum of requirements of the scientific method.
"To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry is based on empirical or measurable evidence."
99. 9% of scientists accept Evolution.
Many Biologists question the core components of darwinian evolution.
Here is a giant list of field qualified evolution skeptics.
"accepts evolution and the big bang theory are true."
The Big Bang insinuates a beginning and a universe created by a Genesis-like event.
If Evolution is true it does nothing to creationism. Who knows how God designs systems and creatures? If it is false, Atheism has no answer. I have demonstrated it does not meet the minimal requirements of the Scientific Method.
Richard Dawkins refuses to debate Stephen Meyer on Biology. Won't debate scientists who oppose evolution? Why not?
"..eyewitnesses of Jesus"s ministry were dead by the time of the gospel writings.."
After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.
(1 Corinthians 15:6)
Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews, written around 93–94 AD -
Josephus, in "Antiquities" wrote about people who claimed to have seen the ressurected Jesus were still alive to testify in his day.
The crucifixion of Jesus-
Many early nonchristian sources show knowledge of the event and life of Jesus.
Revelation calls the capital area of Rome the "Throne of Satan".
I will go over some points that have been made in this discussion.
-The world population shrinks to miniscule only a few thousand years ago and the history of intelligent man is very, very young.
-James Gates and Hamming self correcting or "error correcting" code in the construct of the equations used to describe our universe.
-Christ gave the sequence of the Gospel's history. Spread to whole world, false messiahs and doctrine arrive, the faith has a falling away, people mock God, and the antichrist "god".
-Islam fulfills the prophecy of Antichrist prophet's followers beginning to attack, kill, and overcome Christ's followers.
-God named Ishmael's seed slaves. They later referred to themselves as "slaves" on their own accord.
-All of Christ's apostles and many followers were Jews familiar with Judaism and saw Him as the Messiah.
-Jesus was born. The Jews never again received prophecy.
- Millions of Muslims are claiming to have seen a divine Jesus in dreams on social networking sites(Fulfills Acts 2:17). If Con has ever had a dream about Jesus, she is welcome to share it.
- Islam fits the prophetic description of the antichrist infallable prophet, beast of the Earth who marks foreheads, speaking image, bowing to image, and beheading Christians, and the eternal battle between the seed of Isaac and Ishmael which is still ongoing.
The Islamic Dome of the Rock is a full scale depiction ofjust how "Antichrist" Islam is. On the dome are engraved 24 points all declaring that "Jesus is not the Son of God", their nameless god rejects his crucifixion and divinity, and gives stark warnings to Christians. Here is a site that shows exactly what is written on the dome of the rock.
With the discovery and understanding of the Higgs-boson scientists are declaring it is "impossible that anything even exists".
John Lennox and Roger Penrose adhered to a given number of probability that states "We, our planet, everything that is, by probability alone, cannot even exist. The creation of anything required the aim be accurate to 1 part in 10 to the power of 123, that is 1 followed by 10 to the 123rd power of zeros."
Why does it need to be THIS way? Of all of the infinite possibilities, this is the singularity. This is the one that gives God what He wants.
An example of this-
This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us.
(1 John 3:16)
What does God want?
All the way from Genesis to Revelation God has asked and proven the answer to one simple question.
"Do you love me?"
And at the cross He answered the question. "Lord, do you love ME?"
(1 John 4:19)
Why do I know?
When I was a young man, I was told by a Christian preacher that before God would send you into the field, He would most certainly test you, refine you, and sustain you.
I lost everything I had and my mate in a short period of time. I gave up my family because apostasy is forbidden in the belief system I grew up in. So I had nothing. Nothing except for God. I stayed loyal to Christ. Things got worse. I stayed loyal to Christ. It got worse. This was the time of my trial and preperation.
I prayed to God to show me what to do and asked Him to sustain me and protect me. And He delivered. I got my family back, as they converted to Christianity, and by no effort on my part. I hadn't seen them in years. The doors opened. The floodgates poured out God's blessings. Suddenly I couldn't shut the doors that God had opened.
The more I helped other people with what I had, the more God gave to me. It became an unexplainable cycle of winks and nods, and mercy from God Himself. It became, that I didn't just have loyalty. I didn't just have faith. It became that I knew that I knew that I knew. God had shown us both something. It was 100% true and proven. I loved Him. And He loved me.
Why did God test me?
Because He would one day ask me to give hope to the hopeless, feed the starving, help the desperate, be there for the broken hearted, spread the gospel to Muslims, Agnostics, Atheists, take shots, name calling, insults, and even danger to my own life, all for His name's sake. Those are not waters He asks you to tread without proving your love for Him in the midst of storms.
Unbelievers ask me regularly,"Why doesn't God just appear and show us what He wants and what the point is?"
He did. Don't miss it. Why? Because God loves you. And don't ever forget it. God loves..loves..loves..loves....YOU. How long? Forever, and ever, and ever, and ever and ever.
"God Loves You"(Billy Graham)
Science has advanced to a highly sophisticated level, but to date has found nothing that requires any kind of supernatural intelligence to explain. This did not have to happen. We could have determined the age of the earth to be 10,000 years, in which case evolutionary theory would have been impossible. We could have found the universe to be so precisely designed as to beg the question of how it could have happened on its own.
What this implies is that if there is an all-powerful god as proposed by Christianity, that god must be choosing not to manipulate anything beyond the natural order, or, in other words, to completely conceal his presence. However, this concept does not square with Christianity, with its idea of a personal, hands-on, and prayer-answering god.
It seems almost beyond belief that by now science would not have found some footprint or subtle effect of this god somewhere on earth or in the universe. Instead, all that we have observed indicates that there is no god anywhere, no god doing anything, no god designing anything, just plain no god.
At the time the Bible was created, most people viewed the earth as the center of the universe and that the sun, stars, planets, and moon revolved around its flat surface. Christianity is based on this world view, placing an emphasis on humans as the ultimate reason that the universe was created in the first place. Not only is Christianity earth-centered, but it was also limited to a few hundred square miles in its beginning and did not reach all areas of the earth until about 1500 years later. Further, it is limited in its overall time scope to something less than 10,000 years.
What we have since learned about the age and size of the universe has spectacularly dwarfed the Christian world view. Instead of 10,000 years old, the universe is 13,700,000,000 years old. Instead of the earth and a few objects orbiting around it, we have the earth, 4,500,000,000 years old, orbiting the sun, which is just one of over 100,000,000,000 stars in the Milky Way galaxy, which itself is only one of at least 200,000,000,000 galaxies in the observable universe.
The idea that all of this was created so that God could create and test human beings is absurd. If that was so, then:
" Why did God wait 9,200,000,000 years after creating the universe to construct the earth?
" Why did God wait 4,500,000,000 years after creating the earth to create human beings?
" Why did God wait 100,000 years after creating modern human beings before making any contact with them?
" Why did God allow 3,500 years to pass after the initial contact with humans was made before his word had spread world-wide?
These thoughts are best summed up by a quote from Richard Feynman:
"It doesn"t seem to me that this fantastically marvelous universe, this tremendous range of time and space and different kinds of animals, and all the different planets, and all these atoms with all their motions, and so on, all this complicated thing can merely be a stage so that God can watch human beings struggle for good and evil " which is the view that religion has. The stage is too big for the drama."
The failure of science to detect any kind of a supernatural activity is strong evidence that the god of Christianity does not exist.
For those Christians who believe in evolution, there is a noteworthy problem dealing with the starting point when humans first became bound for eternity in the eyes of God. Whenever this happened, there were undoubtedly a lot of people scattered over much of the world. To be clear, there has to be a starting point when God first awarded an eternal life to human beings. Without this demarcation, we would have single-celled animals living for eternity in heaven. Whenever this occurred, it would create a problem. It would mean that many people going to heaven would do so without the company of their parents, who would die and not be raised up, similar to all of the other animals. No matter where the cut was made, this problem was unavoidable.
Pro makes a statement about his personal reasons for believing Christianity is true. However one person's opinion does not prove Christianity is a fact.
Objective studies have revealed that prayers are not effective beyond any statistical measure of coincidence. Most notably, they do not work for amputees or paralyzed individuals. Prayers for terminally ill people almost always fail. Prayers for rain, to allay storms, and for fixing damaged property, among others are rarely attempted because the supplicants know they won"t be effective. But what do the scriptures say?
He replied, "Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, "Move from here to there," and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."
"Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours."
An objective person must realize that the promises described in these scriptures are not true. The fact that there is no discernible efficacy for prayers is a valid clue that there is no god listening and responding to them.
One of the most definitive examples of the failure of prayer involves the story of Eva Peron (Evita), Argentina"s adored first lady from 1946 to 1952. Eva became sick with ovarian cancer and asked the Argentinian people to pray for her health to be restored. The ensuing 10+ million people praying for her had no effect on the progression and ultimately fatal consequences of her disease.
The very structure of society speaks to the ineffectiveness of prayer. Otherwise why would we have hospitals, drug companies, health insurance, car insurance, or any kind of insurance if Jesus"s promise of prayer was genuine?
Christians should enjoy an advantage in most of life"s situations, having a supernatural deity at their beck and call. That is, they should react in a measurably different way than atheists. However, this difference does not happen:
When a Christian gets sick, he goes to a doctor, the same as an atheist.
When a Christian has a car accident, he takes the car to a body shop for repair, the same as an atheist.
To protect his family, a Christian buys life insurance, the same as an atheist.
When a Christian is cheated, he uses a lawyer, the same as an atheist.
This might seem obvious to some, but it should be noted that other than saying prayers and attending church, a third party bystander could not discern any difference in the way a Christian lives his life versus an atheist. They both use worldly remedies for every one of life"s problems and challenges. Although they profess a belief in an all-powerful god who hears and answers prayers, Christians actually live their lives as if there is no god.
The lack of an earthly advantage for Christians is evidence that they are not affiliated with a supernatural being.
If you were born long ago, before Christianity, you probably would believe in a God by the name of Thor, or Zeus, or Olympus, or some such deity. If you were born in recent times in India, you would believe in a multiplicity of gods. If you were born in Pakistan, you would believe in Allah. If you were born in Utah, you would most likely be a Mormon, and so on.
It is obvious that belief in gods and religions is highly influenced by the timing and placement of one"s birth. If any god existed and demanded worship it would make itself obvious to all people. It would not give some people an advantage by placing them in predominantly Christian areas while placing others in areas where Christianity has no significant presence.
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