Christianity causes many problems - Wrong or not, it's dangerous in big ways
Debate Rounds (5)
has significant dangerous, unhealthy, bad parts.
Now I do mean Christianity itself. I'm not going to say anything historical, pointing out holy wars or something. The whole POINT of this is that the IDEAS are bad, independently of any history.
At the same time, Con WILL have to defend the significant doctrines of Christianity. You can't just say you don't personally happen to believe some basic doctrine that mainstream Christians do.
Whether Christianity is true or not is a separate issue to be discussed elsewhere.
Whether its good qualities are greater than its bad qualities is also not the point. Con will have to defend the particulars of Christianity.
Again, let me clarify that Con will not have to defend Christians and that I will not be making any appeals to historical events to prove anything.
If this is unclear, please message me to clarify before accepting the debate.
My position is opposite that of Bound Up, who will henceforth be referred to as PRO.
Instills poor patterns of reasoning with practical consequences
How are you?
"Better than I deserve" comes the classic Christian response, an expression emerging from one of the most basic Christian doctrines: You are lower than the dust of the earth. Without outside intervention, your deserved destiny is to be lit on fire and then be kept alive like that for eternity.
The finest of your efforts are filthy rags. The worse ones are so repugnant that the most just of responses is to light you on fire. In the depths of that infinite agony, scream for pain, but never for relief, never in protest, it is only what you deserve.
Take away the flames, the state we are in now. But always remember that you deserve nothing better. Peer into the depths of your very essence and know that it is corruption to the core, awful wickedness, repulsive.
Are you loved? Oh, sure, your family and friends and so on. They think well of you because they don't know what you're REALLY like. Or alternatively, they themselves are too wicked to be properly horrified at your licentious state. God knows. Only God has the knowledge of how full of poison and depressing worthlessness you are. Only God is righteous enough to be properly repulsed by it.
And of course, only He is still loving enough to love you anyway.
They love you. He loves you.
But His love counts for extra, since only he can properly appreciate how little you deserve it.
Do we really want people to believe this about themselves? Can it possibly be emotionally healthy?
By all means, I understand if it's TRUE. If it's true, may we all believe it and do the best we can.
But if it's not true, it's not merely mundane in its falsity, it is dangerous. It hurts people. I would implore you to stop contributing to that pain.
Poor patterns of reasoning:
The standard Christianity is one of faith. It lauds the beautiful faith of children, who never question, never doubt.
We are implored to be like them, the "little children," are we not?
In this way, Christianity contributes to a stilted maturation of critical thinking skills.
It teaches a SYSTEM of thinking.
By teaching people not to doubt, it allows them to keep beliefs which do not stand up to doubt.
What starts as a pattern of thinking which defends Christian belief spreads. Humans cannot contain safely to one part of their mind such patterns of thought. They become susceptible to not doubting ANY comfortable beliefs.
The greatest opportunities for progress, in our own growth, and in that of our relationships, often lie on the other side of some uncomfortable realization.
This progress is, not totally, but still substantially, denied to patrons of Christian thought.
Christians rely on God to save the world. They are wont to discount any threats to humanity at large. This affects government decisions and increases our vulnerability to extinction-level events.
Also, you stated that Christians believe that your deserved destiny is to be lit on fire for eternity. This is not true. Many Christians are divided on this issue, but the Bible is clear that in order to go to Hell, you must reject Christ. This seems incredibly exclusive, unless of course Christ is the only legit way to salvation. But your point on CHRISTIAN doctrine here falls apart, mainly because it is not based in Christian teaching, ie, the word of Jesus himself, and the Bible. For example, Christians do not believe that babies go to hell. Your point is disproved.
"Are you loved? Oh, sure, your family and friends and so on. They think well of you because they don't know what you're REALLY like. Or alternatively, they themselves are too wicked to be properly horrified at your licentious state. God knows. Only God has the knowledge of how full of poison and depressing worthlessness you are. Only God is righteous enough to be properly repulsed by it.
And of course, only He is still loving enough to love you anyway."
The Bible does not teach this, I do not know what kind of Christianity you are attacking, Christians believe that Christ"s righteousness becomes ours, through salvation. We aren"t perfect, and we should acknowledge this and repent. In doing so, we become righteous through Christ. Your point stands disproved.
"Poor patterns of reasoning:
The standard Christianity is one of faith. It lauds the beautiful faith of children, who never question, never doubt."
Correction, it lauds the beautiful innocence of children. (See Mark chapter 9)
Also James 3:17 states "But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere"
Open to reason, not blind faith. Your point is, disproved. This is just one example, there are many more places, in which Christians are called to reason.
You are correct in stating that Christianity teaches a system of beliefs. Unfortunately, that is the only thing you are right about. We believe that God created the world, but we aren"t wont to neglect real problems. This is not a debate, it is a foolish hate filled rant. Be objective and unbiased, and good luck in life.
I don't even think I would say I hate the dangerous doctrines of Christianity. I disagree with them, and worry about their effects, is maybe how I would put it.
Perhaps my...use of vocabulary gave you the hatred impression, though I would it was otherwise. This was not the intention.
Now. That being the case, my points are sound. You've used a little bit of sly wording to manage to not say outright what Christianity most CERTAINLY teaches.
Tell me which of the following is NOT a Christian teaching, or a logical conclusion of the same:
1. Without God, a man will go to Hell (lit on fire for eternity)
2. This is his just penalty for his sins.
3. Without God, man deserves to be lit on fire for eternity.
4. What this man has done (whether it be jaywalking, or something more serious, like yelling too much) makes him deserve to be lit on fire for eternity.
Plain as day, my friend. I regret the need to dwell on such ugly topics, but it is for the sake of those in pain because of them that it is necessary to expose their nature.
As I said with clarity before, to believe that one deserves to be lit on fire, DESERVES it! As a JUST recompense for their own "wrongdoings" can hardly be healthy.
"in order to go to Hell, you must reject Christ. This seems incredibly exclusive, unless of course Christ is the only legit way to salvation."
Oh, sure, that makes it inclusive, does it?
Let's not forget that it's the same person DECIDING that He's the only legit way to not be lit on fire.
Or that he created the blessed land of fire and puts you there.
And did you not catch that my "the best of your works are filthy rags" line is right out of the writings of Paul? I used some expressive language, but that was partially because I was using the Bible's OWN TERMS to describe people.
Is it not written that no unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God? Because He hates sin? That those who God "knows not" are to be cast into everlasting fire?
Right. So just repent. Does this not include abasing one's self before God and admitting that one is a sinner in need of salvation from Hell? Acknowledging that that is what you deserve, for the wages of sin is death?
And most churches will teach that this is a continual process, always remembering to beg again for your latest transgressions. You can say "His righteousness becomes theirs," but it's not enough to keep them from having to return to this again and again, remembering again that they're worthy of hellfire and damnation.
Reasoning - A scripture that says "Go reason, yay!" does not change that Christianity encourages people to be as undoubting as little children, and that this has consequences.
Christians believe the world is destined to end. God would never let it, unless it were His plan, in which case it's SUPPOSED to happen. So, if the world's ending, either that's good, or God will stop it.
So we can just watch
You say that people go to hell because of what they do. No, they go to hell because they don't accept the truth, simple.
Now, i have not much to say but, If God as Christians believe does indeed exist, what actually are you arguing? Alot of things in life are terrible, but sometimes we have to deal with it. So the real question is, "Is Christianity the right way?".
A question that I, even as a Christian continually ponder... Christianity is a belief system that I use to view the world, and I am convince that it is true. However, if something happens, I may change my mind, and thats perfectly fine, because then I am searching for truth. We all are.
Now, on to your points, yes hell is terrible, but no one is forcing you to attend. If hell exists and the bible is true, then guess what? Yup. But if it doesn't, then who cares right?
Christianity is true, at least in my opinion, and I think that is more important than whether or not the details are appealing to me. The world doesn't revolve around our personal opinions, it exists on its own. Our job is to discover, not to imagine.
That said, on what basis should I even consider your claim that Christianity is detrimental. Who cares?
Is it true or not?
The truth hurts sometimes, but it shall set you free.
God made Hell.
God judges us.
God tells us we need a Savior. Why? Why do we need a Savior?
It's obvious. To try and hide from it is...I don't know, but it's not being upfront about Christian belief.
Without God's action, none of us would go to Hell.
With God's action, whether you go to Hell depends on YOUR choice.
But never forget that even the POSSIBILITY of going requires that God act: as the starter of the flames, the setter of the punishment, the judge of the crime.
And Christianity tells people He's just and right for doing so, and if they end up in Hell, it's THEIR fault, and they can't complain against their executioner.
I suspect this is not really necessary. You can reword things to make it sound nice, but pretty much everyone knows about the Christian Hell, it's a pretty basic doctrine. They'll know independently of whether you admit it in public or not.
Also, Christians are taught not to doubt, a careful system of not-thinking that bleeds over into other areas of life and keeps them from confronting uncomfortable truths, and from enjoying the sweet fruits of accepting them.
And they are prone to neglect resolving sufficiently serious dangers to the world, since they expect it to end anyway, according to the will of God.
Since you've dropped these other arguments, and just said that it's more important to know if it's true than if it's nice, I'll just finish up by reminding everyone of the terms of the debate by quoting my opener and title. If you'd like to discuss the truth of Christianity, just say so and we can do so in another few debates.
"Whether Christianity is true or not is a separate issue to be discussed elsewhere."
"Christianity causes many problems - Wrong or not, it's dangerous in big ways"
If he doesn't exist then feel free to do so, but not if He does, because then you would be earning Hell, and rightfully so.
Christianity isn't damaging because it provides a ray of hope for humanity, tells us that God will save us if we just accept the love he is giving. You want to frame God like an evil monster, but without God, you wouldn't even have the morality that you are arguing with. You can't tell right from wrong, unless there is someone who OBJECTIVELY knows, and told you. God did that with humans to an extent, giving us his "spirit" or "breath", but it still remains for us to accept the truth when we see it. The truth hurts sometimes, but ultimately it is true.
Saying Christianity is bad because Hell exists is pointless. Because Christianity is not a fairy puff, please everybody, cream puff, way of life. It is just there, and you accept it or not.
If God exists, then this whole issue raised is a non issue. If he doesn't, it is still non important because what does danger even mean. How do I know? Why does it matter? Why does anything matter? How do we know what right or not? Those are the important question.
Yours doesn't do anything constructive imho....
In terms of this debate specifically, no Christianity isn't dangerous. The way people apply it can be dangerous, but Christianity itself isn't dangerous. Very simple.
A gun in a grocery with bullets can be dangerous if the store owner doesn't keep it locked up in a safe place, using it only in emergency. Of course the store owner is dangerous, but not the inanimate nonliving gun. This is because if you hid the gun forever, it wouldn't magically hurt innocent people. But if a criminal comes into the store, and the gun safely hinders the criminal either by injury or by stalling for police or extra help, then you can say it was safely used. It depends on the store owner....
Likewise, it depends on how you interpret Christianity, and I fail to see how it is inherently dangerous.
For the earning Hell bit...
Suppose you were granted the knowledge of my guilt. You don't need to judge if I'm guilty or not; God did that.
You also know what God says about sin, and the wages thereof, as also His words about Hell.
To you has been given the decision to determine what punishment I'll receive for my guilt.
If you had a way to light me on fire and keep me alive like that for eternity, would you do it? Is that what seems moral and just to you, from what you know of me, know of my guilt, know of what God has said?
In the opener, I said the following: "Whether its good qualities are greater than its bad qualities is also not the point. Con will have to defend the particulars of Christianity."
I haven't said that Christianity doesn't give people hope, comfort them in trials, etc.
I have said that at least one basic doctrine is psychologically damaging. And that other ones contribute to poor thinking habits and existential negligence.
These ideas, some praising Christianity, some criticizing it, are not mutually exclusive; they can all be true.
The truth of Christianity is a separate issue to be discussed elsewhere (if you'd like to :) ).
I also said in me 2nd argument:
"By all means, I understand if it's TRUE. If it's true, may we all believe it and do the best we can.
But if it's not true, it's not merely mundane in its falsity, it is dangerous. It hurts people. I would implore you to stop contributing to that pain."
Actually, I never said if it was true or not.
So, I feel we are not actually disagreeing about this point, or at least, your argument isn't one that actually addresses my point.
You're right about the guns and so forth. Some things grant power, to be used either for good or for evil. For example, Christian ministers have a pulpit from which to preach ideas and morals. If they use it well, they do good. If they use it for evil, they do bad.
The influence itself is not good or bad.
But doctrines are not like that. They're either true or false, either dangerous or not.
And if the ministers use their influence to tell people that they'll be lit on fire for eternity, and that this is just, unless they repent and accept Jesus, they're teaching an idea which inflicts psychological and emotional damage to people.
I believe it was Paul who said that if you have to frighten people into accepting Jesus, then go for it; it's better than them going to Hell.
So the psychological effect of the idea is conceded by the Christian viewpoint, it seems...
Of course, if Christianity is true, as I said before, let us accept the truth, damaging as it is, and do what we can with it. But that's a separate issue.
Let the issue be settled: The doctrines of Christianity inflict psychological harm on people, teach them to avoid certain kinds of clear thinking, and to let God decide when the world ends instead of saving it themselves.
Vapeo forfeited this round.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by U.n 1 year ago
|Agreed with before the debate:||-||-||0 points|
|Agreed with after the debate:||-||-||0 points|
|Who had better conduct:||-||-||1 point|
|Had better spelling and grammar:||-||-||1 point|
|Made more convincing arguments:||-||-||3 points|
|Used the most reliable sources:||-||-||2 points|
|Total points awarded:||1||0|
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeiture
You are not eligible to vote on this debate
This debate has been configured to only allow voters who meet the requirements set by the debaters. This debate either has an Elo score requirement or is to be voted on by a select panel of judges.