The Instigator
jesusfreak22
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
philochristos
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Christianity has proof

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Post Voting Period
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/26/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,113 times Debate No: 41273
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (8)
Votes (0)

 

jesusfreak22

Pro

First round is acceptance. Second round speech. Third rebuttals/conculsion. Good luck! Must back up points with proof as to why Christianity has been proven true/false. May use biblical references.
philochristos

Con

Temptation got the best of me, and I'm going to play devil's advocate.

Since Pro stipulated that I must prove Christianity false, we can assume the burden of proof is shared. She must prove Christianity is true, and I must prove it is false. That means we both must do two things: (1) we must each offer arguments in support of our own point of view, and (2) we must each attempt to refute the other person's arguments.

May the odds be ever in your favor.
Debate Round No. 1
jesusfreak22

Pro

First off, I can't help but say that I love the Hunger Games reference!
Now onto my speech...

Big bang theroy; God's creation; both are theroies of how the world came to be. I would like to start off this point by asking if anyone truly believes that there was a bang created by who knows what somewhere in space and that the world was created? Because scientists believe that. Don't you think it makes much more sense to believe in God?
There is so much detail in life. Everything breaks down into atoms and particals that make up the atoms. Only God could create such a thing, not an explosion. (1) The famous astronomer and mathematician Sir Fred Hoyle once did a mathematical analysis and concluded: “The likelihood of the spontaneous formation of life from inanimate matter is one to a number with 40,000 naughts after it…. It is big enough to bury Darwin and the whole theory of evolution.”

When people say, "There’s not enough evidence", what they mean is "There’s not enough evidence to coerce me out of my indifference. If I choose to ignore it, the evidence isn’t enought to force me to believe." (2) Jesus said: "Keep on asking and you will recieve what you ask for. Keep on seeking and you will find. Keep on knocking and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives. Everyone who seeks, finds. Everyone who knocks, the door opens." (Matthew 7:7-8)
God doesn't force himself upon us. He has given evidence of Himself that is clearly sufficent to those with open minds and hearts. The French mathmatical genius Blaise Pascal put it this way:Willing to appear openly to those who seek him with all their heart, and to be hidden from those who flee from him with all their heart, God so regulates the knowledge of himself that he has given indications of himself which are visible to those who seek him and not to those who do not seek him. There is enough light for those to see who only desire to see, and enough obscurity for those who have a contrary disposition.

I thank my opponent for accepting the challenge, and await the next speech!


1 http://www.creationism.org...;
2 http://www.bethinking.org...
philochristos

Con

Thank you for that opening, Jesusfreak22.

What is Christianity?

Before we can have a debate over whether Christianity has proof, we first ought to have some inkling of what we mean by "Christianity." That will tell us what actually needs to be proved.

Now, I don't expect Pro to try to prove that every doctrine of Christianity is true. After all, Christians differ with each other over what doctrines are true. But think that at a minimum, before Christianity can be true, the following things must be true:

1. There is a God.
2. Jesus is the Christ.
3. Jesus died for sins.
4. Jesus was raised from the dead.

Now, of course, Jesus couldn't have died for sins if there were no such thing as sin, and there couldn't be any such thing as sin unless there's a moral law that God imposes on us. So you might place morality in the fifth spot, but I think to be as fair as possible, we can just say that if Pro proves #3, she will have proven that there's a moral law.

Pro's case for Christianity

So far, all she's done is attempt to prove #1. But that is not sufficient to prove Christianity because it's possible for #1 to be true and yet for Christianity to be false. For example, it could be that Islam is true. Or it could be that deism is true. So Pro has not carried her burden of proof. Even if her arguments for God are sound, she has not shown that Christianity is true. She needs, at the very least, to prove that Jesus is the Christ.

As for Pro's attempt to prove the existence of God, her argument is an exercise in credulity. Apparently, she can't imagine how the universe with all its intricacies could emerge from a big bang, so she concludes that God did it. But I think when it comes to subjects like the origin of the universe or the intricacies in the universe that we just don't know what happened. Reality is a strange enough place that we shouldn't jump to conclusions that stem from our own lack of imagination or lack of information. Maybe God did design and create the universe, but Pro hasn't really shown that.

As far as Fred Hoyle's 1e40,000 odds of life spontaneously arising, I question whether Fred Hoyle really had enough information to calculate the odds. If Pro would explain to us how Mr. Hoyle came up with that number, perhaps we'd have something to argue about.

We also have to consider our explanatory resources. There are roughly 1e23 stars in the universe[1], many of which have multiple planets, and many of which are big enough that "chances for life" could be taking place in multiple locations at once. That's not to mention the many moons around many of the planets which provide more chances for life. If you add to that the 13.82 billion years[2] the universe has had to try various chemical combinations over and over again, we might be able to overcome Fred Hoyle's improbability.

The case against Christianity

Christianity is a self-refuting religion. By "self-refuting," I mean that if you begin with the assumption that it is true, you end up with the conclusion that it is false. Christianity contains certain doctrines that if true turn out to disprove Christainity. My argument can be summarized like so:

1. If Christianity is true, then Judaism is true.
2. If Judaism is true, then Christianity is false.
3. Therefore, if Christianity is true, then Christianity is false.

Let's take the premises one at a time.

1. If Christianity is true, then Judaism is true.

Christianity presupposes the truth of Judaism. Jesus was a Jew. He believed God gave his law to Moses and that it was binding on the Jewish people. Jesus believed in the God of Israel. Jesus was supposedly the fulfilment of Jewish prophecies found in the Tanakh. So if Christianity is true, then Judaism is true.

2. If Judaism is true, then Christianity is false.

According to Christianity, Jesus "does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself" (Hebrews 7:27). Jesus' death completely did away with any further need for sacrifices. He was the final sacrifice that accomplished what previous sacrifices could not.

However, according to Judaism, sacrifices will never end. Although Jews don't sacrifice today because there is no Temple in which to do so, the prophets say sacrifices will be restored. In Malachi 3, it says that when he comes, the "messenger of the covenant" will purify the Levites so that they can "bring offerings in righteousness" (Malachi 3:1-4). In Zechariah 14, it talks about how God is going to punish all the nations that fought against Jerusalem, and in verse 21, it says, "Every pot in Jerusalem and Judah will be holy to the Lord Almighty, and all who come to sacrifice will take some of the pots and cook in them." In Isaiah 56:7, it says that at the time when the house of the Lord is called a house of prayer for all nations that "their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my alter." There are also other passages in Ezekiel about sacrifices in the new age, but I think I've said enough to establish the point.

If sacrifices continue into the eschaton, as the prophets say, then it cannot be true that Jesus was the final sacrifice, so Christianity is not true.




NOTES

1. http://www.esa.int...

2. http://www.washingtonpost.com...



Debate Round No. 2
jesusfreak22

Pro

Before Christ was nailed to the cross he was beaten. He was stripped to the waist and beaten with a long chain attached to a pole. Jesus knew when he was born that he would die; that he would be beaten. But he accepted it. After he had been beaten half to death they placed thorns all around his head. Then the Roman soliders dug the thorns into his skull. After that he was forced to walk up the mountain carrying his own cross, then be nailed to it. The drove the nails into his hands and feet so that he could not move. This ensures that he died.
After his death he was moved into a tomb. The entrance was sealed by a boulder. Three days later, two women came in to wrap his body. When they arrived at the entrace, the rock was moved to the side. They entered and Jesus' body was gone. He stood in the entrance, and they felt his hands where the nails had been driven into him. His ressurection was witnissed by hundreds upon thousands of people. http://www.4truth.net...



If Christianity is true, then Judaism is true.
Jesus was born a Jew. Judaism is true. Judaism was the Christian religion before Christ was born. Once Christ was born, Judiasm wasn't the "updated" version. It became Christianity (hence the Christ). The only difference is that Jews believe that the Son of God has yet to walk the earth.

If Judaism is true, then Christianity is false.
Not so. Christianity is merely built upon Judaism. Judaism is just the "older version" of Christianity.


Sorry my arguements could not be longer. Am running out of Mb on the data plan. Good luck!
philochristos

Con

Alrighty, then. In the last round, Pro attempted to prove that God exists. I gave a refutation of her arguments, and she dropped that point. Unfortunately, the existence of God is necessary for the truth of Christianity, but she has dropped that argument. That leaves Christianity unproved.

Concerning Jesus being the Christ, she simply told us the story found in the Bible, but she didn't give us any arguments for why we should think it's true.

In the last round, I gave an argument for why Christianity is false, and that argument had two premises:

1. If Christianity is true, then Judaism is true.

If I understand Pro correctly, she agrees with this premise. After all, she claims that Christainity is Judaism.

2. If Judaism is true, then Christianity is false.

Pro disagreed with this premise, saying that Christianity is merely a continuation of Judaism. Unfortunately, she ignored my argument to the contrary. I pointed out that if Judaism is true, then sacrifices and offerings will last into the new age, and that refutes Christianity which claims that Jesus was the final sacrifice. With that argument in mind, it can't be the case that Christianity is a continuation of Judaism. At best, it's a heretical off-shoot of Judaism.

There you have it. Thank you for coming to tonight's debate, and thanks to Pro for her contribution.
Debate Round No. 3
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by DudeStop 3 years ago
DudeStop
"Big bang theroy; God's creation; both are theroies of how the world came to be."
Ok...

" I would like to start off this point by asking if anyone truly believes that there was a bang created by who knows what somewhere in space and that the world was created"
What? I would say simultaneous causation would.be the solution to where all the space and energy came from. Or retro causality. Or maybe, just maybe, it was a NON SENTIENT force.

" Because scientists believe that"
And they have good reason to.

"Don't you think it makes much more sense to believe in God?
No, why? You haven't proven that it's your god, nor have you disproven The Big Bang.

"There is so much detail in life. Everything breaks down into atoms and particals that make up the atoms. Only God could create such a thing, not an explosion."
Right... Which is made because we live in an multiverse.

"The famous astronomer and mathematician Sir Fred Hoyle once did a mathematical analysis and concluded: "The likelihood of the spontaneous formation of life from inanimate matter is one to a number with 40,000 naughts after it". It is big enough to bury Darwin and the whole theory of evolution.""

Yet again, he must not have known of the multiverse.
Posted by philochristos 3 years ago
philochristos
I was just playing devil's advocate. I don't actually think Christianity is false.
Posted by Romanii 3 years ago
Romanii
@philoschristos:
So... how do you still believe in Christianity as your profile indicates, if you are still able to prove Christianity to be false?
Posted by swag_master 3 years ago
swag_master
what proof
Posted by jesusfreak22 3 years ago
jesusfreak22
I posted a link to it on my friend's thread. Hopefully they'll look at it!
Posted by philochristos 3 years ago
philochristos
Don't worry about it. It doesn't look like anybody is going to vote anyway.
Posted by jesusfreak22 3 years ago
jesusfreak22
I would like to thank my opponent for this challenge! It was extremly fun. And I wish I had been able to expand my last arguement, but, as I said, I didn't have much time online and I only had an hour left before I ran out of time. However, this debate could go either way. Good luck, and may the best debater win!
Posted by philochristos 3 years ago
philochristos
I'm tempted to play devil's advocate for this debate.
No votes have been placed for this debate.