The Instigator
Lordgrae
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Lupricona
Con (against)
Winning
3 Points

Christianity has roots in other religions besides Judaism.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Lupricona
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/21/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,315 times Debate No: 36910
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (4)
Votes (1)

 

Lordgrae

Pro

I am on the pro side of this debate, and thus I shall be arguing that Christianity had many roots from religions that it would declare "heathen". Of course, Judaism will be off the table, because Christians and everyone understands that a lot of Christianity is from Judaism and therefore it is unnecessary to discuss it.

As the con side for this debate, my opponent shall be arguing that Christianity had no roots in any other religions. (accepting Judaism) I wish whoever it is the best of luck.

Here is the layout of the debate.

Pro | Con
Round 1: Description of debate | Acceptance
Round 2: Opening arguments | Opening statements/ Refutations
Round 3: Refutations/argument | Refutations/arguments
Round 4: Closing arguments/refutations | Closing arguments/ no new arguments

The rules are as follows

1. No swearing
2. This is not an argument over the existence of god
3. This is not an argument over the validity of the bible
4. This is not an argument over the divinity/ existence of Christ
5. Please do not use religion in your argument.
6. Judaism is not allowed to be used on the pro side as an example.
Lupricona

Con

I accept.
Debate Round No. 1
Lordgrae

Pro

Early Christianity, mainly the stories and properties of Jesus.
Lupricona

Con

Opening

As my opponent accidentally posted his comment in the argument section, I obviously don't have anything to rebut. However, I will give an overview of my understanding of Christianity.

Beliefs

True Christianity does not have God as a trinity. The Scriptures declare one God, the Father, and one mediator between man and God.

Matthew 10:28 "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna."

Christianity does not believe in Hell as a place of torment. Believers will be resurrected, but those who are deemed as unworthy by God will be annihilated in Gehenna, not have an eternal torment in hell.

Statement

Jesus came to fulfill the Law given by Moses and to fulfill the messianic prophecies. Everything Jesus did was in relation to Scripture, not as an influence of other religions.
Debate Round No. 2
Lordgrae

Pro

My first argument shall be the Egyptian God Horus. Egypt was in an area where it would have had a lot of influence over Judea, and the Romans adopted and spread many of their gods during that era, making it so that the Jews of that time would have had a lot of exposure to that. The same can be said of the god Mithra and the cult of Dionysus and any Greco-Roman mythology.

-Horus and Jesus

-Both born of virgins

-Mother was Meri/Isis. (in the Jesus story it is Mary)

-Foster father is Seb, the Jo in josephs name can be attributed to a lingual prefix

-Only son of his father

-Birthdays celebrated about 4 days difference (Horus dec. 21, Jesus the 25)

-Herut tried to kill Horus, in the Jesus story the guys name was Herod

-No information is given between the age of 12-30 for both

-Baptized in a river at the age of 30

-Tempted in the desert by his fathers arch rival

-Their baptizer's were beheaded

-Raised Osiris from the dead. (Osiris is also known as Asar, translated to Elazarus in Hebrew, pretty close to Lazarus)

-Both Crucified

-Both went into hell and came back roughly 3 days later, for Jesus it was not a full three days, but rather the night of the first, the second and the morning of the third.

-Often known as KRST (pretty close to Christ once you add vowels)

-Both criticized for being around sinners.

http://www.andrew.cmu.edu...

Much of our information of Horus in found in documents from pyramids and tombs, preserved from much before C.E. began. The stories would have been kept well and alive by documents in Alexandria and temples, also by oral tradition.

Then there is Orion. Ever heard of his belt in the constellation?

-He was born of a deity and a god

-He walked on water

Although passed down mostly by oral tradition, his story was kept well intact by some small amounts of writings and temples.

The cult of Mithra

-Birthday celebrated on the 25th of December

- Water related miracles

http://en.wikipedia.org...

The cult of Dionysus

-Monotheism (sort of)

-Eucharist is performed

- Birthday celebrated on the 25th of December

- Importance of wine and bread

- Dionysus charged with claiming divinity, brought before the king

The stories of Dionysus were much before the time of Jesus, however the actual cult did not form until around the time Christianity existed.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Something else that is staggering evidence is the birth date. The bible, as described in the site below, says facts that lead to the conclusion that December could not have been the birth date. So why then, was the birthday celebrated at the time it was, right around all the other religion's holidays? It was to compete with them, rather than force the romans to change, it was far easier to convert the Romans when you don't force them to move their holidays.

http://www.ucg.org...

I will save Krishna for the final round, but I rest my case. How could such similarities exist? Is it just random that almost everything in the Jesus story matched up with another religion? How is this possible without influence. Keep in mind that during the Roan empire's control of Judea (which is when Christianity came to be) the early Christians had a lot of exposure to these religions. It would not have been out of the ordinary for this religion to have been based in other Mediterranean or near Middle Eastern or even Indian faiths. (Though in the case of Hindu, it is more likely that they influenced other religions which later influenced Christianity and was not a direct influence.)
Lupricona

Con

All of my opponents arguments rest on one conjecture: Parallelomania (http://en.wikipedia.org...)
Parallelomania refers to a phenomenon where authors perceive apparent similarities and construct parallels and analogies without historical basis.

My opponent offered various comparisons between Horus and Christ, and offered a link to validate the claims. Here is a quote from the source given under the heading 'Reactions of Egyptologists': "There is no evidence that Horus was born of a virgin, that he had twelve disciples, or that he was considered incarnation of God."


To further validate my point, here is a list of common deities that are generally attributed (through false information) to have correlations with Christ: Krishna, Buddha, Horus, Zoroaster, Mithras, Attis, and Dionysus, and here is a link that shows that none of these deities actually do have substantial correlations: http://thedevineevidence.com...

(Some examples from the link is that some of these deities do not actually have a virgin birth, specifically Horus, who was born from his mother using magic to make sperm from her dead husband to be able to become pregnant, etc.)


Pro "Although passed down mostly by oral tradition"

I argue that pagan mythologies borrowed from the Christian religion. We have accurate accounts of prophecies that the Messiah was supposed to fulfill that can be demonstrably be proven to have been written before Jesus. However, with pagan mythologies, there is very little written material, and as they relied on oral traditions, additions are inevitable. Unless my opponent can validate the argument by providing adequate references to pagan texts that predate Christ, there is no case here other than certain historians using their credibility to create erroneous arguments for Christian/pagain parallels.

(Also, it doesn't matter that we celebrate Christmas on December 25th, because, as my opponent has proved, Christ was not born in December. Yes, later Christians celebrated this date to increase their number of converts, but that isn't paganism influencing Christian theology, it's just Catholics willing to do anything for converts.)
Debate Round No. 3
Lordgrae

Pro

"All of my opponents arguments rest on one conjecture: Parallelomania. Parallelomania refers to a phenomenon where authors perceive apparent similarities and construct parallels and analogies without historical basis. "

There is historical basis for these arguments. Not only are they incredibly similar, but the early Christians in the area of Judea during the Roman empire would have had massive exposure to these religions, as they were widespread in the eastern half of the Roman world. I don't believe in coincidences. If many eastern Mediterranean religions contain similar elements of a story, that is not coincidence. Are you meaning to say that a group of people, happened to be exposed to these beliefs and create a belief set that shares many similarities, that there was no influence? My argument isn't that there are similar faiths, it is that they shared similar practices

"My opponent offered various comparisons between Horus and Christ, and offered a link to validate the claims. Here is a quote from the source given under the heading 'Reactions of Egyptologists': "There is no evidence that Horus was born of a virgin, that he had twelve disciples, or that he was considered incarnation of God."

I re-read it, and I admit that I was incorrect and had not read the full report. That does not take away a lot of what we do know for sure about Horus, many of the similarities I presented are still valid. I find that some of the stories were infused from Christianity to Egyptian mythology, but many of them are common elements in both stories. I find it hard to believe that if one religion could influence the other, than the other could not have influenced the first. The early Christians would have been exposed to these beliefs. Are you saying that none of the similarities found are copies?

"To further validate my point, here is a list of common deities that are generally attributed (through false information) to have correlations with Christ: Krishna, Buddha, Horus, Zoroaster, Mithras, Attis, and Dionysus, and here is a link that shows that none of these deities actually do have substantial correlations: http://thedevineevidence.com...;

I find your link weak. It

(Some examples from the link is that some of these deities do not actually have a virgin birth, specifically Horus, who was born from his mother using magic to make sperm from her dead husband to be able to become pregnant, etc.)

Pro "Although passed down mostly by oral tradition"

"I argue that pagan mythologies borrowed from the Christian religion. We have accurate accounts of prophecies that the Messiah was supposed to fulfill that can be demonstrably be proven to have been written before Jesus. However, with pagan mythologies, there is very little written material, and as they relied on oral traditions, additions are inevitable. Unless my opponent can validate the argument by providing adequate references to pagan texts that predate Christ, there is no case here other than certain historians using their credibility to create erroneous arguments for Christian/pagain parallels."

The Egyptian texts were preserved in tombs that existed long before the Roman takeover of Egypt, around the time of Jesus. The Roman temples kept somewhat accurate records of their practices and their faiths. Although Krishna was not well documented until after Jesus, we can see isolated areas in the Indian peninsula that have well informed knowledge of Krishna and his stories. Areas that are not really connected to the outside world. If anything the Christian's didn't even have their bible written for a hundred years after Jesus was supposedly around.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

"(Also, it doesn't matter that we celebrate Christmas on December 25th, because, as my opponent has proved, Christ was not born in December. Yes, later Christians celebrated this date to increase their number of converts, but that isn't paganism influencing Christian theology, it's just Catholics willing to do anything for converts.) "

I'm sorry, but that is influence. That is one faith having an affect on the beliefs and practices of another without conversion, that is influence. This is a clear example of how a religion was influenced by those around them, and changed to be more like them.

One more thing I have to say. The idea of a heaven and hell, and an ultimate battle between them, was original used by Zoroastrianism, another religion that the Christians would have had exposure to. And the link below, is not about their oldest book, yet it dates back to before Darius the first. Who in turn outdates the Roman victory over the Carthaginians. (before Christ)

http://en.wikipedia.org...

To summarize. My opponent seems to think that there is some coincidence. I will admit that some of the similarities I pointed out tend to be random archetypes for characters, and not very convincing. For all of these similarities to be completely random, when they developed in the same area, and Christianity had exposure to it early on, is ludicrous.

Failing in this I will stick to my claim that when a religion clearly changes a belief because of another faith, regardless of the purpose, that is religious influence. Therefore the fact that Christian's changed the date of Jesus's birthday party, is obvious influence of other religions on Christianity.
Lupricona

Con

My opponent never offered any evidence to show that pagan religions were similar to Christianity, only just by asserting that the that there were simiarities. Some people have claimed similarities, but historians have denied such claims.

The only real argument that my opponent has is that Christians celebrate Christmas, which was on a pagan date. However, this does not show Christianity changing their beliefs. The Christians actually took the pagan dates, and changed the nature of the celebration.

I argue that just because when Christianity became the main religion in Rome so Constantine changed all of the pagan holidays to christian ones but kept the dates just to make everyone happy is not a good argument to show that other religions influenced Christianity. Actually, this is Christianity influencing other religions to make more converts.
Debate Round No. 4
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by Lordgrae 3 years ago
Lordgrae
I'm really really sorry, but I accidentally posted what was a comment to my argument submission.

I will give my opponent a free head start then, and will not argue until round 3, in which I will post my entire argument.
Posted by countzander 3 years ago
countzander
Christianity in general? Or different denominations? Early Christianity? Christianity circa 2013? If the religion in general, then, as that other guy said, you're already won. If Early Christianity or Protestantism or Southern Baptism, that would be a more interesting debate.
Posted by Lordgrae 3 years ago
Lordgrae
Because I got into a contention with someone over this. The person was a Christian fundamentalist and because the bible is the "word of god" and thus this question will create controversy, because if the beliefs of the Christian religion comes from pagan beliefs, then it destroys the validity of the religion.
Posted by Oromagi 3 years ago
Oromagi
Wow, talk about your straw man. I can't think any serious scholar who deny non-Judaic and pre-Judaic influences on Christianity. Isn't that like saying ' I will argue that Rome had many cultural influences, but my opponent must argue that Rome was only influenced by Greek culture?' You've set the conditions so that you're on the side of conventional history and your opponent may only defend a fiction of your making? Where's the challenge in that?
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by funwiththoughts 3 years ago
funwiththoughts
LordgraeLupriconaTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Mostly because Pro called Con's link "weak" without offering any explanation or rebuttal.