The Instigator
leet4A1
Pro (for)
Winning
40 Points
The Contender
GodSands
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Christianity is a religion

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/27/2009 Category: Religion
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 5,231 times Debate No: 10254
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (61)
Votes (7)

 

leet4A1

Pro

I would like to thank Godsands in advance for accepting this debate, presuming of course that he does.

I will not make any arguments this round because I don't want to waste my time in case Godsands doesn't accept. I'll kick it off in Round 2.

Thanks again in advance Godsands.
GodSands

Con

Thanks for this, I will try to make the most of it.

I believe Christianity is not a religion, I will try and use reason to suggest to you why Christianity is not a religion but a plain relationship with God through His Son Jesus Christ.

Religion is like politics, you have different political parties, likewise you have many religions. They all say one way is right, and this way is right, both religion and politics say that. But how does religion say this is the right way? Religion says, you get to heaven by doing good works. Like feeding the poor, obeying your mother and father, not having sex before marriage etc...On and on and on. However it is of course good to keep to good works and deeds for faith is shown by good works. But good works mean nothing since you have already fallen short of God's glory. So how does anyone make their efforts count? I am not saying doing good gets anyone into the Kingdom of God because it doesn't. What gets men and woman into the Kingdom of God? Faith in Christ, and what will you show when you have faith in Christ? Good deeds and a visible effort to do good for all.

Christianity isn't a religion, if you say Christianity is a religion you say that the court of law on earth inherits religious schemes. If you say righteousness and justice is religious then you say the court of law is religious. For God, the Christian God is righteous in every single way, He is just in every single way. He is also loving because of those other two, in every...Single way. God will act in the precisely the same matter that the court of law does on earth, but in a even more righteous and just way. God will use evidence against your sins, and you will not be justified unless you accept His Son. It sound stricted and narrow minded, because it is. The truth is not broad and wide, a wide truth can been seen and many angles, a wide and broad truth is something like, "I think." Or, "We exist." But I am talking about definision, a accurate reading of righteousness and justice, which even the smallest sin will be noticed and be held as evidence. If the law on earth could be like God, it would.

So a thief breaks into your house and murders you family in the night, missing you because you were out late, taking your parents bank details, credit cards and the car keys and car, you walk back to your house extremely startled and in shame that you were out late while you mother, father and younger sister were murdered as if they had the value of lumps of coal. After crying your eyes out and waving your fist up high in the air as if at God, you want to bring righteous justice upon this man who broke into your home and murdered your family (the police are already involved and seeking this man, you also hear that the thief has cracked into your families savings and has stolen the whole $100,000).

No news of this thief comes about and 2 years later the police close the case until further evidence is found. However 15 years later the police find the thief who murdered your family after changing his identity and name, they bring him to court and you go along to. Once at court the man defends his case and says, "But your Honour, I have a family and two beautiful children only aged 1 and 3 . I am a changed man now, what I did that night was a complete act of selfishness and hatred, please your Honour let me go free so I can watch my children grow up."

At this point religion would say, "Yes ok you may go free, you are charged not guilty." You would feel so angry that you would ring the governments and even try to enter the front doors of the White House you would seek the best loyal, you would spread the news like the black death and you would never give it up.

Christianity at this point will say...

"No, sorry, we have the evidence for your crimes, (depending which state, he would be put to death, but in this example he does not) you are sentence for life is prison, till death." (He will never get out of prison). But hang on aren't we all in this mans seat? Yes, we are indeed. But God who in this example is the judge, sent His Son Christ to pay for your unjust, thoughtless, God hating sin. That is like the judge concluding you guilty and then afterwards comes straight down from the high and powerful throne and pays the price and says, "Go on free, I will take your punishment for your crime and go to prison until I die."

Were as religion would gladly allow any old person to stroll through doors which no sin should enter. But from what basis does a religious person have to say, "I am free of sin, and my good deeds now count, because I am free of sin."? Don't you see men looking proud and seemingly holy wearing expensive clothing and long robes so everyone can see? They try to impress by they efforts at religion, by doing good and speaking good things. Not only that, but loving those men do not so much love, but those who are religious and seem to love, sure I am not saying they are haters, they love but not genuinely, they love for their religion. Christians love because of what Jesus did for them on the cross, and you can see what he did in a watered down version above as I have explained.

Religion is mans way to God, Christianity is God's way to man. And that is not religion. Religion is the works and efforts, but all of this has been done on the cross, no need for works and effort, but to believe and take faith in Christ. And the sign that someone has faith is by good works and efforts, yet they are not needed. But a saved person, a Christian will want to serve God because he or she understands what God did.

This is pointless anyway if you are to argue that Christianity is a religion, you will never admit is isn't. Saying that Christianity is not a religion and not accepting Christ and believe in him is like knowing the winning euro million jack pot of �98,000,000,000 and willingly deciding to work over time for an extra �20 and by doing so missing the chance to give in the correct numbers. In the same sense, this is like admitting Christian is not a religion, and because of that, understand Christianity is the truth yet doing doing about it.
Debate Round No. 1
leet4A1

Pro

Thanks very much to Godsands for accepting the debate. I would like to inform the voters that this debate is a result of a discussion Godsands and myself have been having in the forums, where he has expressed his belief that Christianity is not a religion, and I have begged to differ.

My opponent has failed to provide definitions, so I will do so:

RELIGION:
- (n) a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny [1]
- (n) an institution to express belief in a divine power [1]
- a system of human thought which usually includes a set of narratives, symbols, beliefs and practices that give meaning to the practitioner's experiences of life through reference to a higher power, deity or deities, or ultimate truth. [2]

CHRISTIANITY:
- a monotheistic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth as presented in the New Testament. [3]
- (n) a monotheistic system of beliefs and practices based on the Old Testament and the teachings of Jesus as embodied in the New Testament and emphasizing the role of Jesus as savior [4]
------------------------------------
Now that I've provided standard definitions, I will address my opponent's first round arguments.

"I believe Christianity is not a religion, I will try and use reason to suggest to you why Christianity is not a religion but a plain relationship with God through His Son Jesus Christ."

False dichotomy. My opponent is suggesting that because Christianity is a "plain relationship with God through his Son Jesus Christ", that it can't be a religion, but this is clearly false. Indeed, as we can see in our definitions above, these are the very components of Christianity which MAKE it a religion in the first place.

"Religion is like politics, you have different political parties, likewise you have many religions. They all say one way is right, and this way is right, both religion and politics say that."

I suppose I agree with this. For the rest of this paragraph and the paragraph which follows it, my opponent's argument gets less and less to do with the resolution, which, I'll remind you, is whether or not Christianity is a religion. My opponent claims that only faith in Christ will get someone into heaven, and that's all fine and dandy for my opponent to believe, but once again, this belief (the Christian belief) is the very thing which makes Christianity a religion. I fail to see the point my opponent is making.

Next, he says that "if you say Christianity is a religion you say that the court of law on earth inherits religious schemes", but I don't know where he gets this idea from. A religion is "an institution to express belief in a divine power". Christianity is an institution, right? Christians express belief in a divine power, right? The court of law doesn't, and in fact has nothing to do with this debate.

My opponent spends the rest of this paragraph explaining the righteousness of God and so forth, which again has nothing to do with the resolution, so I needn't address it.

My opponent then provides a story of a thief in the night who kills a couple of people, and is busted for the crime 15 years down the track. The murderer apologizes, and according to my opponent "at this point religion would say "yes ok you may go free, you are charged not guilty." My opponent's next entire argument rests on this faulty premise. Frankly, at this point, "religion" can't say anything because there are thousands of different religions. What is true for Christianity may not be so for Judaism or Scientology or Buddhism or Islam or Taoism or Universalism or Pastafarianism, and believe me, I could go on. The point is, my opponent has made a sweeping generalization of religion, as though it were a single entity, and then concluded that Christianity isn't a religion because it differs. Voters, clearly this argument doesn't hold water, and I needn't address it further.

"Religion is mans way to God, Christianity is God's way to man. And that is not religion."

Clever wordplay aside, this says nothing of the definitions of religion (which are as commonly accepted as a definition can get) I have provided.

"This is pointless anyway if you are to argue that Christianity is a religion, you will never admit is isn't."

Of course I won't, because Christianity is a religion. The definition of "Christianity" calls it a religion, you can't get any more clear-cut than that. This is like me attempting to argue that red isn't a colour, and after my opponent provides several definitions of "red" which call it a colour and several definitions of "colour" which include "red", and then me concluding that it's pointless for my opponent to argue that red is a colour. Basically, this isn't an opinion-based thing... these words we're using have specific definitions we must abide by in order to use them. That is how language works.

"Saying that Christianity is not a religion and not accepting Christ and believe in him is like knowing the winning euro million jack pot of �98,000,000,000 and willingly deciding to work over time for an extra �20 and by doing so missing the chance to give in the correct numbers. In the same sense, this is like admitting Christian is not a religion, and because of that, understand Christianity is the truth yet doing doing about it."

Nah, there's nothing here worth responding to, I'm sure you'll agree voters.
---------------

Now that I've countered my opponent's arguments, I will provide my single argument:

The definition of "Christianity" is "a monotheistic RELIGION based on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth as presented in the New Testament". Is there anything else I need to say?

I'll leave it there for this round, I do thank my opponent for accepting the debate and putting a lot of effort into it, but I would like to remind him that we are debating the definitions of simple English words and their relationship to eachother, and ask that he please remain on-topic next round.

Thanks.

REFERENCES:
[1] - http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu...
[2] - http://en.wikipedia.org...
[3] - http://en.wikipedia.org...
[4] - http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu...
GodSands

Con

Ok thank you...

"My opponent has failed to provide definitions, so I will do so:" - This comment here is fairly pointless, failed to prove what to a devoted atheist? The definitions are true definitions, but that is not all, and if not for Christ Jesus, there would be no Christianity. But there is such thing as Christianity, for one soul purpose, to have a relationship with God through Jesus.

Now it is religious to believe in God or many gods, and it is religious to pray and fast, and eat bread and drink wine, go to church and read the Bible and do well and obey God. But, and it's a big but, none of that will ever, ever get anyone, no one into the Kingdom of God. Which is all religion teaches, you must do this and that, and go do that and go do this, like this and like that. You must pray five times a day, and you must fast for 40 days, from 6am to 6pm. No! None of that, although it is good and you will gain respect by doing these things, it is not sufficient, it is not enough. It's only necessary, so when you have accepted Christ then you may begin to serve God. Christ is when you begin, without Christ all religious people are fooling themselves. What Christ does to people who are chose by God, are washed clear of their sin, and then from there their good deeds, prayers etc count for something. Unlike religion which offers no savoir. Religion is trying to fly to the moon without any fuel, religion is trying to hear without any hears, religion is trying to see without eyes, I could go on and on with ease as you can see, many analogies can be shown to show you how religion is false. Christ however is the fuel, he is the ears and he is the eyes for each of those analogies.

So to simply say that Christianity is a religion just because God is involved is misunderstanding the whole point. The thing is that people do not include God in their lives, and before Christ was crucified and resurrected; God's Grace could not be given. Christians include God, only through Christ, not in any other way. So Christ is the door way to the real meaning of salvation. God cannot save you without His payment, unless He would become unjust and unrighteous, and more so unloving.

"these are the very components of Christianity which MAKE it a religion in the first place." - Yes Christianity does carry religious values, like pray and worship, but if it was not for Christ it would all be worthless. And therefore what does Christ do? Make these things count for one, and not only had that but wiped away all of your sin. Sin separates us from God, and religion is just that, man thinking they can get to God while living in sin. It's false.

Let me use politics to express my point further. Say there was a political leader who said, "All our problems are over, we as a country will end school bullying, under age drinking, divorce, obesity and crime will have it's place no more. There will be no more war and energy supplies will no longer be an issue..." You would probably think, 'Yeah like that would ever happen.' In the same way you would think about Christianity, "Yeah it's a religion." Politics isn't good; in fact politics is the reason why we have so many problems. In the same way religion is the reason why we have so many problems; we have religions because we are separated from God. Worshiping God with music and your voice is good, only because of Christ; by thinking that you are connecting to God by doing such things as praying and worshipping is misleading. Christianity sorts out the sinner before anything else.

The reason why I spent a lot of time on the righteousness of God and His justice is because I wanted you to understand that if Christian God judges by that standard, why then would it religious, for you are all guilty who are not in Christ. If you call Christianity religious then you call evolution religious. For this reason:

In the same sense that evolutionists believe that because there is micro evolution there needs to be macro evolution, Christians believe in eternal judgment because there is justice on earth which is only temporary, like micro evolution is believed to be temporary. As in an animal isn't the same animal forever, they change right?

So you see the similarities there? Eternal judgment vs macro evolution, both eternal. Earthly judgment vs micro evolution, both temporary. Call Christianity a religion you call evolution a religion. Unless you want to lie to your self and focus more on the words and there meanings and not on the comparison of Christianity and evolution. If I compare a car to something that drives like a car, feels like a car, handles like a car and it is the same weight as a car, it is most likely going to be a car. Remember that I am not focused on the means of words but the comparisons.

Now I believe Christianity is not a religion because it does not address the notion of 'getting to God' by ways and means of men. It in fact reverses that account by God coming to us as Christ. Now you can say that men thought that up, thus it is religious, a super religion if you like. But if God really did come to us like He said in His word, what would it seem like? As it does now, either way, it is not about factual accounts but the perception of the on lookers. How one sees and perceives things. Remember that if there was evidence that Christianity wasn't a religion that evidence would change you, but you cannot see the evidence so you must change, only conclusion to pull from that, is that they happen at the same time. It is not word play!

"Of course I won't, because Christianity is a religion." - Definitions aside, they are pointless here, all definitions do is enhances a persons perspective on what that person thinks is right. You think Christianity is a religion and you say religion is this, and Christianity for you fits into the term religion. Look I do not care, we could have argued that Christianity is the only religion, and other faiths are just seen as religion, they are mere attempts by man to made sense of the universe, completely missing the point, and missing the whole meaning of religion.

If Christianity was a colour, say yellow and other colours like red mean Islam, and then Christianity would be a religion. Because both yellow and red are colours therefore both Christianity and Islam are religions, but there is a problem. You don't believe in any religion and you do not believe in Christianity, so it seems right for you to say Christianity is a colour as if religions were colours. Try from this perspective; if the colour green caused globe floods then you would not say green was a colour, but more like something that needs to be extracted from existence, therefore it not being a colour. And if green is taken out of existence then so would red, brown, blue, orange etc... and there would be no colour and therefore no one could see. And possibly because of this all colours need to be extracted from existence, in other words all religions must be wiped out, if Christianity goes so does religion, if Christianity is in so is religion. Religion is at the other end of the stick to Christianity. You cannot just have religion and nothing else that motivates it, because there must be truth in religion otherwise it wouldn't have come about. Christianity fulfils religion if you like or religion fulfils Christianity, remember, good deeds is proof of faith.

You cannot have a stick with out there being a tree and you cannot have a stick without having someone to use it. The tree is Christ and man is the person, religion just has the person a stick. In the same way white is Christianity, man is the person observing colour and blue, green, pink etc are religions.

"Now that I've countered my opponent's arguments, I will provide my single argument:" - But the last one, which still stands.

Thank you, I await the next argument.
Debate Round No. 2
leet4A1

Pro

Thanks to my opponent.

I will rebut only those parts of my opponent's response which relate to the resolution, which will make this a very short round indeed.

"The definitions are true definitions"

Here my opponent concedes that the definitions I provided for "religion" and "Christianity" are true and representative. This is basically an unwitting admission of defeat on my opponent's behalf, as the very definition of "Christianity" my opponent has agreed with refers to it as a religion.

"Now it is religious to believe in God or many gods, and it is religious to pray and fast, and eat bread and drink wine, go to church and read the Bible and do well and obey God."

Here my opponent concedes that it is "religious" to act in a Christian manner, which is implied anyway by the definitions.

"In the same way religion is the reason why we have so many problems"

I'm glad my opponent can admit this, but saddened that he can't extend it to his own religion.

"Now I believe Christianity is not a religion because it does not address the notion of 'getting to God' by ways and means of men."

Whether this is true or not, it says nothing of the fact that Christianity is a religion. This is like me defining swimming as "the action of moving through a liquid using one's body", and then saying that I believe swimming is not an activity because swimming pools have chlorine in them. It doesn't follow at all.

"Definitions aside, they are pointless here, all definitions do is enhances a persons perspective on what that person thinks is right."

Definitions are not pointless here and in fact are THE ENTIRE POINT. We use words to communicate things like religion and Christianity. We can not ignore definitions of these words, or we may as well not speak.

Anyways, this is getting a bit tedious. I don't really need to say anything more. My opponent is attempting to argue against definitions he's conceded by saying that definitions are pointless when trying to discuss whether Christianity is a religion, but clearly this is incorrect and there is nothing I can say which will convince Godsands otherwise.

"You cannot have a stick with out there being a tree and you cannot have a stick without having someone to use it. The tree is Christ and man is the person, religion just has the person a stick. In the same way white is Christianity, man is the person observing colour and blue, green, pink etc are religions."

1. Wow.
2. Lol.

I'll leave it there for this round, cheers.
GodSands

Con

Thank you once again, I've enjoyed this debate.

Ok, Christianity has elements of religion such as prayer, fasting etc, but Jesus said, "I have come not to embolish the law, but I have come to fulfill the law." So Jesus came to take us beyond religion and to have a loving Father/son relationship.

I would also like to point out that it is religious not to believe in God, to be an atheist is to be religous. An absense of something in this case God does not mean that you are free from religion, religion is to have a belief in God, believing that God exists or not, you still have an opinion.

Christianity goes further than prayer and fasting, reading the Bible etc, the point was that if you do not live by the law, and obey the two greatest commandments set by Jesus, Love the Father with all your heart and with all your mind and with all your strenght, and love on another as you love your self. So that the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ may complete these laws, otherwise you cannot love the Father or you cannot love one another in the same way Jesus said to, which was with agape, unconditional love. It would such be pointless, you can be a kind and nice as you want, but without Christ it counts for nothing. Romans 3:23 "For man has fallen short of the Glory of God."

Christ fulfills this because he lived a perfect life without sin, and then he dies, which did not suit his life style, it was unfair and thus by entering through the door of righteousness through Christ you go beyond religion, for no sacrifice is needed, no uneeded law such as not being able to eat pork, these things are meaningless with Christ. Religion has been pushed to one side. As if one says, "Get away from me, your way leads nowhere but to destruction." In a meterphorical pronunciation.

Religion does not wish for anyone to live a perfect life, yet Jesus did, and through Christ we are made clear of sin. Thus making our spirit perfect as the Holy Spirit lives in those who love the Father.

Religion alone, with nothing to aim for, no growth in the spirit ends in destruction, in Hebrews it mentions that there is a righteous path that leads to hell. Why would the Bible contridict it's self in such a way if the Bible is false? Jesus said, "I am the way and I am the truth and I am the life."

Christianity is nothing without Christ, it would not exist if Jesus never existed, Jesus Christ preformed magnificent miracles, which showed the people at the time that he had athority and the power of God. Just like if you saw something great or unbelievable, you wouldn't go around calling it a religion, Jesus' miracles were a series of events that lead to his death and resurrection, freeing men from sin. Religion does not, it is more personal, in that you may leave the religion when you like and then come back to it when you like. In Christianity you can do the same thing, but the Holy Spirit will convict you and allow you to repent, confess and then continue your walk with God. As if man had it all wrong, so God had to come and sort us out, so much that God remains in those who truely want Him. Religion does not have this, it does not convict but are mere words, when you pray in the name of religion you only speaking to your self. It would help if you believed in God to understand this.

Now my point about Christianity existing so that religion can exist was a concept which was almost innate to the mind, and most certainly innate to religion, for that because religion exists the concept of Christian is in existence, not necessarily existing in action. In the same was a square exists, innately a cube exists.

All my previous points make sense, let me put what I meant in a simple analogy: The tree/ stich analogy was rubbish to be fair. So allow me to give another on.

There is a house, Christ is the key, the Kingdom of God is the house, religion is man trying to break in. I could go on and on with these very simple analogies, and the reason why they are simple is because there are true. So man breaks into this perfect home, which is now not perfect because man has broken in and made a mess. By using a key through the front door no mess is made. In the same way, when Christians enter the Kingdom of God they enter righteous and they are justified. But when man breaks in by his own efforts he fails and is thrown out as unrighteous and he his not justified, but thrown out into the streets.

What don't you get?

Thank you, I have said all which is needed. Thank you.
Debate Round No. 3
61 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by GodSands 6 years ago
GodSands
Hahaha, funny.
Posted by Atheism 6 years ago
Atheism
'The world is wrong because my book contradicts it.'

...Really?
REALLY?
Oh, I'm getting a headache from this idiocy.
Posted by GodSands 7 years ago
GodSands
Christianity has made faith eligible because of what Yeshua did on that tree, and by His resurrection we are saved.
Posted by Zetsubou 7 years ago
Zetsubou
Faith in uncertain Act, Kleptin.
Posted by Kleptin 7 years ago
Kleptin
Lassie is a (Collie)
Lassie is a (Dog)
Lassie is a dog, but specifically, a dog that is a collie.
Lassie is different from different dogs because Lassie is a collie, but Lassie is still a dog.

****

Christianity (involves faith, not acts)
Christianity is a (religion)
Christianity is a religion, but specifically, a religion that focuses on faith and not acts.
Christianity is different from other religions because it deals with faith and not acts, but Christianity is still a Religion.
Posted by leet4A1 7 years ago
leet4A1
Lol.

*Pats Godsands on the shoulder softly*.. Ok mate, you're right, Christianity isn't a religion. I've been a blind fool.
Posted by GodSands 7 years ago
GodSands
The worlds definitions are not understanding of Christ, otherwise the world would accept, but they won't, they just think and say, "Christianity, it's only a religion right, nothing to think about there." Because the word religion sums it up. Think no more, those people who think that are right, but Christianity, Jesus Christ is not of religion but of God.

Swimming is exercise in what ever you do it in, your anaolgy didn't quite cut it, you will never understand me, in general, until you become a Chistian your self. Its like telling a blind man to see, it wou't happen, when the blind man does see he will understand.
Posted by leet4A1 7 years ago
leet4A1
"The world is wrong,"

If "the world" uses correct definitions to describe things, then the world is correct. The definition of Christianity places it as a religion, and the definition of religion includes Christianity. Why can't you understand this very simple concept?

"the Bible contridicts the world"

Lol, you got that right. It also contradicts common sense, modern science, decent morality. Don't see how that helps your case here though. :P

"I was always going to lose."

That's true. You were attempting to argue the inarguable. You were attempting to argue that swimming isn't an activity because swimmers wear goggles. Which leads me to...

"What on earth does this mean? Never understood this. It doesn't make sense."

Exactly. It doesn't make sense. You know swimming is an activity right? It doesn't matter what happens in the activity we call swimming, it's still an activity right? Just as it doesn't matter how true Christianity is, or what Jesus said, or ANYTHING else you brought up in the debate... Christianity is a religion as much as swimming is an activity. This is the English language we are talking about, not theology or the particulars of Christianity. The English language is not up for debate.
Posted by GodSands 7 years ago
GodSands
"And remember, "swimming" isn't an "activity" because pools have chlorine in them." What on earth does this mean? Never understood this. It doesn't make sense.
Posted by GodSands 7 years ago
GodSands
The world is wrong, the Bible contridicts the world, I was always going to lose.
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