Christianity is more likely to be true than Islam
Debate Rounds (5)
(1) Authenticity: What proof did Muhammad give to show that he was really chosen by God? Jesus, the founder of the Christian faith had many miracles to prove he was of God. (Matt 1:19-25; Mark 2:6-8; Matt 3:14-17) So did Paul and the other disciples who wrote the New Testament. (Acts 20:8-12; Matt 10:1-8) Muhammad, however, came with no supernatural proofs of his divine commission. This fact is admitted as his listeners accuse him of imposture and forgery. (Sura 17:89-93; 21:5, 6). In view of the many signs the previous prophets like Moses and Jesus performed, did his listeners not have a right to ask: "Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord"? (Sura 6:37; 13:7, Ali) What is faith without proof? Anyone could claim to be sent of God. Moses and Christ proved it by the performance of many miracles, but where were Muhammad's miracles? He confessed in the Quran to having none. (Suras 2:118; 10:38; 11:13; 6:109) Plainly it quotes God as saying, "We refrain from sending Signs, only because men of former years treated them as false." (Sura 17:59, Ali) The Bible writers proved they were of God, so did Jesus, Muhammad didn't.
(2) The historical truth about Jesus: The New Testament claims Jesus was God's Son who died on the cross, the Qur'an denies both these things. Both books claim to be inspired of God, so we can't settle the issue that way. And anyone can make that claim and be lying. Gospel writers were eyewitnesses. (1 John 1:1-4; 2 Pet 1:12-18) Matthew, John, James, and Peter were all eyewitnesses to Jesus' life. Luke, Mark, and Paul were contemporaries of Jesus and got their information from eyewitnesses. (i.e. Luke 1:1-4) Early church fathers like Clement the bishop of Rome from 88-99 AD, Ignatius (35-107 AD) and many others quote from the New Testament, placing them all firmly in the first century C.E. So the Gospels were written by contemporaries and eyewitness of Jesus within a generation of the events, and their claim is supported by secular 1st century historians Tacitus and Josephus who confirm that Jesus did die on the cross. (The Annals, by Tacitus, Book XV. 44; Loeb edition, 1981, Vol. V, p. 283; Jewish Antiquities, by Flavius Josephus, Book 18, Chapter 3, paragraphs 1-5, The New Complete Works of Josephus) So the NT version is true because it is backed up by secular historians of that period and supported by eyewitness and contemporaneous testimony; the Qur'an isn't. Muhammad didn't start dictating the Qur'an till 610 C.E., and in the absence of proof of his divine calling, we can't take his word over those who were around in Jesus time or close enough to it to know the facts of what really happened. The word of God cannot contain misinformation about Jesus. The Qur'an does.
(3) The Qur'an has a morally inadequate view of God: Being all-loving, God is the highest standard of love. Yet, the Qur'an minimizes God's love for mankind. It says: "Allah loveth not transgressors" [la uhibb al-mua'tadeen] (Sura 2:190) "Allah loves [hubb] not those who do mischief." [al-mufasideen] (Sura 28:77) "Allah loveth [hubb] not those who reject Faith. [al kafireen] (Sura 3:32) "Allah loveth [hubb] not those who do wrong." [ad-dalemeen] (Sura 3:57) "Allah loveth [hubb] not any arrogant boaster. [kul mkhtal fkhur] (Sura 31:18) Most humans on earth are guilty of these things and other negative qualities, so the Qur'an is saying that God doesn't even love most of mankind. Here the Qur'an says that God does not love the very people that the Bible says he loved so much that he gave up his only Son to die for them. (John 3:16) Islam thus argues that God only loves those who do good, that we have to earn God's love, but what kind of morality is this? This contradicts the previous prophets, for Jesus said you should "love your enemies" and pray for them. (Matt 5:44) To follow the Qur'an's advice we'd be hating our neighbours, and that cannot thus be a religion of love when we hate everyone who happens to be different from us. Christianity says we must respect their differences and love them anyway.
The Bible is superior to the Quar'an in its authenticity, accuracy about Jesus, and its view of God.
Thanks for posing a question about authenticity of prophethood and Islam is not from God and faith without proof and so and so-. In rply I have to say about authenticity about prophethood that Quran itself testified that Muhammad[peace be upon him] sent by God.Muslim believe in the prophet and messengers of God ,starting with Adam,including Noah, Abraham, Ismael, Isaac, Jacob,Moses, and Jesus[pesce be upon all of them].Muslim believe that all the prophet and messengers were created humanbeings who had none of the divine qualities of God.
In the quran God said- "Muhammad is not the father of any one of your men ,but he is the Messenger of God and the last of the prophet."[Q:33:40].
"You[Muhammad] have indeed in the Messenger of Allah an excellent exempler for him who hopes in Allah and the final day And who remember Allah much."[Q:33:21].
And pro said -Islam is not from God .
In the quran God said -" Truely, the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam[submission]"
In Arabic ,submission to God's will is expressed by the word "Islam".
We see what Jesus[peace be upon him] said in the gospel according to tne Matthew[7:22]-
:Not everyone who says to me ,Lord ,Lord ,shall enter the kingdom of heaven ,but he who does the will of my Father in heaven"- In this statements ,Jesus[peace be upon him] places emphasis on "the will of Father", submission of the human will to the will of God.
The "will of God " is contained in the divinely revealed laws which the prophet taught their followers . Consequently ,obedience to divine law is the foundation of worship.
Again pro said ,Islam the faith no proof- In reply I say ,Islam based upon proof.In fact,throughout the Quran Allah directley address man's reason and discuss the ayath[proof,evidence]that would lead man to the path of truth for all of mankind.
Quran is the literal word of God and that is the greatest miracle that Allah has set for mankind.
Every prophet before Muhammad[peace be upon him]had miracles ,such as, parting of Read-sea by Mose[peace be upon him]wich are particular to their own people in order to establish proof against them. Muhammad[peace be upon him] 1400 years ago was given the Noble Quran ,the greatest miracles of all,which will last as proof of the message of Islam for everytime and every place and every people.
The challenge of the Quran
"And if you [non-muslim] are in doubt concerning that which we have sent down [Quran]to our slave [Muhammed] then produce a surah[chapter] of the like thereof and call your witness[supporter and helper] besides Allah ,if you are truthul."[Q:2:23].It is also challenge for you.
In the second chapter of the Quran ,Allah addresses every non -muslim who have doubt about the divine origin of the Quran. Alah state that the Quran is an inimitable,unmatched,unique and without comparison . He challenge every individual who has doubt that it is divinely revealed -to produce single chapter that is similar to it. Till this day ,many disbeliever have attempted at this but have only proved their attempt to be vain and meaningless.
Quran is only one version -not many version like Bible. Today over ten million Muslim who have comitted the entire Quran to memory word for word ,.This is not small feat.
How many other works of literary value have been memorized and passed down through so many generation in the original language ,without a single change in even one sentence.?
One of the attributes of the miraculous nature of the Quran ,is that its verses and text completly conform with scientific discoveries of to-day . More amaizingly is that Quran is full of verse which reveals things about the science which has never been comprehend until the past 100 years.
Here I have not much space to mention and also subject is vast-just one or two mention.
Orgin of life:- "And we made from water every living thing. Will they not believe?[Q:21:30]
The building blocks of all living things are called cell .They are the basic units of life.
Protoplasm[cytoplasm+nucleus] is the substance of all living things .Cytoplasm is a jelly like material consisting of water and dissolved substance .The constitution of protoplasm is about 80-85% water-without water life is not possible.None of the myth on the origin of life that abounded at the time of the Quran are present at the teaxt.the fact that all life originated from water would not have been a very easy thing to convince people of 1400 years ago,especially in the desert.
What happened to the body of Pharaoh of Exodus- Bible version of Pharaoh's story state that -he was drowned in the pursuit of prophet Moses[peace be upon him] -[Exodus:14:28-29]. Unknown to the world till only of late ,the Holy Quran made a definite prediction about the preservation of the body of that same Pharaoh of Moses time.
"This day we shall save you in your body so that you may be a sign for those that come after you. But verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our sign."[Q:10:92]
Body was discovered in the tomb of Amenhotep11 in 189
Another false allegation brought by pro -that Islam does not love neighbour, Isay it is his ignorancy about Quran.
In the Qura Allh one chapter revaeled named "Neighbourly Needs"[Arabic-Al-Maun].chap-107.
I ask read this chapter with open heart without bias .
Allah said in the Quran -"Serve Allah ,and joined not any partners with Him .and do good to parents ,kinsfolk ,orphans, those in need, Neighbours who are in kin .Neighbour who are strangers, The companion by your side ,The way-farer,[you meet],and what your right hand posseess, for Allah loveth not ,the arrogant ,the vain glorious."[Q:4:36]
Ican say that after reading this verse any sane person can say that Islam does not like neighbour.
To those who say Quran forged -Allah replied in the Quran about their obstinate unbelief in the Quran-
This is the revelation of the book in which there is no doubt -from the Lord of the worlds[Q:32:1]
Another place Allah challange -produce one similar surah[chapter] like it-which I mentioned before.
Pro, mentioned chapter 2-v-118,
This chapter describe the distorted heart ,in respect of which all the ignorant people past and present are alike. Its talking about absurd demand of the ignorant people also remind them that He has sent not one but a number of clear sign and proof to conform and establish the prophethood . But sign and proof can be help of only to those people who sincerely wish to know the truth and to attain certitude.For those people who are not in search of truth,but enjoy being stuck in their malice and obstinacy ,there is no help for them.
Here we see that the Torah of Moses is like the Quaran, so the Quaran"s challenge to produce something like it has already been met. (Sura 28:48-49)
Three separate writings are mentioned in the Qur"an. Sura 5:43, 44: "How will they come to you for judgement, when they already have the Torah which enshrines Allah"s own judgement? Soon after they are bound to ignore you: they are no true believers. There is guidance, and there is light, in the Torah which We have revealed." Hence, the Torah, Genesis to Deuteronomy, are referred to in the Qur"an as the Word of God. Again: "To David We gave the Psalms." (Sura 17, Al-Isra" [The Night Journey], verse 55) The third writing referred to in the Qur"an is called the "Gospel." "After those prophets we sent forth Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the Torah already revealed, and gave him the Gospel, in which there is guidance and light, corroborating that which was revealed before it in the Torah, a guide and an admonition to the righteous. Therefore let the followers of the Gospel judge in accordance with what Allah has revealed therein. Evil-doers are those that do not base their judgements on Allah"s revelations.""Sura 5, Al-Ma"ida [The Table], verses 46, 47.
At least sixty-two verses in the Quar'an point out that these three writings in the Bible come from God. And at least twelve other verses say that the Qur"an was written for the purpose of confirming these books. Here are some of these verses. "Children of Israel . . . Have faith in My revelations, which confirm your Scriptures." (Sura 2, Al-Baqara [The Cow], verse 41) "A Book confirming their own has come to them from Allah." (Sura 2, Al-Baqara [The Cow], verse 89) "When it is said to them: "Believe in what Allah has revealed," they reply: "We believe in what was revealed to us." But they deny what has since been revealed, although it is the truth, corroborating their own scriptures." (Sura 2, Al-Baqara [The Cow], verse 91) "He has revealed to you the Book with the truth, confirming the scriptures which preceded it; for He has already revealed the Torah and the Gospel for the guidance of men, and the distinction between right and wrong." (Sura 3, Al-Imran [The Imrans], verses 3, 4) "This is a blessed Book which We have revealed, confirming what came before it." (Sura 6, Al-AnR19;am [Cattle], verse 92) "What We have revealed to you in the Book is the truth confirming previous scriptures.""Sura 35, Al-Fatir [The Creator], verse 31.
So not only does the Quaran teach that the Bible is God"s word, but it also shows that it was uncorrupted at the time the Quaran was written because it tells us to trust it. Those Muslims who despite all the evidence to the contrary still insist that the Quran teaches the corruption of the earlier scriptures, will have to face a dilemma:
1.If you accept the Quran's verdict that the Torah is like it (Sura 28:49, 46:10), then the challenge was met before it was issued. It will be hard to avoid the implication that this challenge was published rather thoughtlessly, which in turn questions its alleged divine origin.
2.You reject this statement of the Qur'an regarding the Torah being like it. Why then would you believe the Qur'an to be from God if you reject what it says as being wrong?
The Hadiths are also like the Quaran: In his Hadeeth, Muhammad explained Ayat 75:16-29, by saying, "
"I was given the Quran and its equal with it (i.e., the Sunnah)" (A Sahih Hadeeth; Al-Hadeethu "Hujjatun bi-Nafsihi ).
29. [Albani, Muhammad Nasir ad-Deen. Al-Hadeethu "Hujjatun bi-Nafsihi fi-l-A"hkami wa-l-"Aqa-id (The Hadeeth is Proof Itself in Matters of Law and Creed) (Pg. 26-27)"] (Introduction to: Muhammad The Prophet of Mercy " Muhammad"s Role in Islam, by Jalal Abualrub, edited by Alaa Mencke [Madinah Publishers and Distributors, First Edition: June 2007], p. 34)
No Muslim has ever produced anything similar to Shakespear, or the works of TS Elliot, so does this prove these are also the word of God? No one has drawn a Mona Lisa since Leonardo de Vince, does that make his paintings from God? This challenge to produce something like the Quar"an is nonsense!
There are many contradictions in the Quar"an which show it is not a miracle from God:
Abraham: "neither Jew nor Christian; but he was sound in the faith, a Muslim." (Sura 3:60; 5:48, 111, Rodwell) But according to Sura 39:14 (Rodwell), Muhammad was the first Muslim: "SAY: I am bidden to serve God with a sincere worship: and I am bidden to be the first of those who surrender themselves to him, (Muslims)."
Again, according to Sura 2:59 (Rodwell) salvation is for others besides Muslims: "Verily, they who believe (Muslims) and they who follow the Jewish religion, and the Christians, and the Sabeites,"whoever of these believeth in God and the last day, and doeth that which is right, shall have their reward with their Lord: fear shall not come upon them, neither shall they be grieved."
But other parts of the Quran teach exactly the opposite: "Whoso desireth any other religion than Islam, that religion shall never be accepted from him, and in the next world he shall be among the lost." (Sura 3:79; 5:76, 77)
Again in Sura 2, verse 285 (Rodwell), we read, "We make no distinction between any of His Apostles," whereas in verse 254 of the same sura we are told, "Some of the Apostles have we endowed more highly than others."
Muhammad confessed to having no miracles: (Suras 2:118; 10:38; 11:13; 6:109) Plainly it quotes God as saying, "We refrain from sending Signs, only because men of former years treated them as false." (Sura 17:59, Ali) That rules out any book Muhammed brings, even the Quar"an as being a miracle.
As for man all living things being made from water, the Quar"an contradicts itself on this too:
In the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, who created man, out of a mere clot of congealed blood. Sura 96:1-2
It is he who has created man from water. Sura 25:54
We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape. Sura 15:26
Amongst his signs is this, that he created you from dust. Sura 30:20
Blood clot? water? clay? dust? The Qur'an doesn't really seem all that sure what God used. Sura 19:67 says
But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing?
So now Allah doesn"t use anything at all, not even water! So much for scientific accuracy. Besides, people already knew man"s body was mostly water long before the Quaran was written, so this point is mute!
Hear the so-called scientific accuracy of the Quaran: Sura 2:261 tells us that every ear of corn has 100 grains. This is obviously false. Sura 86:6-7 says that semen comes from between a man's backbone and ribs. We know today from biology studies that semen comes from the male phallus. Sura18:83-98: "Until, when, he reached the setting of the sun, he found it to set in a spring of murky water" (18:86). So Zulqarnain found the sun sets in a spring of murky water. This is saying that the earth is flat and the sun is very small.
Sure, the Quar"an tells us to be kind to our neighbors, but it doesn"t say that God loves them. It says "for Allah loveth not ,the arrogant ,the vain glorious."[Q:4:36] So Allah only loves the good people, but hates the bad ones. Allah does not love all human beings, his love is limited. The God of the Bible loves all mankind. (John 3:16)
So Con fails on the authenticity of the Quar'an and its view of God, and said nothing on its inaccurate account of Jesus. Vote Pro.
Pro said ,"Allah does not love transgressor" where as in the Bible God love all people.
I say what is wrong with this phrase "Allah does not love transgressor". It does not mean that Allah does not love His creations. It is warning gave to the people those who are transgressor, sinner and mischief maker in order to save from the punishment in the day of judgement because that punishment will be serious and dire. If they repent and ammend themslves and live their life rightious way ,then surely they will find Allah as the Most Merciful and Most Forgiver.
Now I come to Bible and we can see what Bible say about transgressor.sinner and wicked.
-Matthew:13:42-43-- "All who do evil with throw them in to the blazing fire where there the will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Then the rightious will be shine like sun in the kingdom of their Father."
Psalm:59:5--- "Be not merciful to any wicked ,transgressor:selah.
Revelation:21:8:--"For the cowerdly,the faithless,the detestable,as for murderer,the sexually immoral,sorcerer,idolaters,and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulpher."
Proverbs:2:22---"Wicked cut off from the earth ,and the transgressor shall be rooted out of it." you can see also Malachi[4:3]
Psalm:65:1-3:----O thou that hearest prayer -as our transgression ,thou shall purge them away."
If any clear minded people read above verses,surely they will realise what sort of love in the Bible are talking by pro.
Pro, mentioned that the Tourah of Moses[pubh]is like the Quran and mention the chapter 28:48-49. It is your distorted translation. Here I put forward the verses in full-
verse48-"But now, when the truth has come to them from Ourselves, They say,why not [signs]sent to him ,like those which were sent to Moses[peace be upon him]?
Do they not then reject [signs]which were formerly sent to Moses[pubh].?
They say,two kind of sorcery ,each assisting the other ,for us ,we reject all."
49-"Say, then bring ye ,a book from Allah which is better guide then either of them. That I may follow it. Do ,if you are truthful."
These verses informed the prophet Muhammad[pubh]about the story of Moses[pubh] because similar conflict was going on at that time between the disbelievr of Mekka and the prophet.
Why was Muhammad[pubh] not been given the same miracles which was given to Moses[pubh] like miracles of staff,shining hand etc,? as if to suggest that you would really believe only if you were shown the kind of miracles that were shown by Moses[pubh] to Pharaoh.
Allah gave information that do you know what sort of response was made by those who were shown those miracles ? They had not believed even after seeing the miracles and had only said "This magic".This their stubbornness and hostility to the truth -same melady aflicts you today.These verse proving that stubbornness and hostility against the truth is not new -it was happened at every time ,every stage
when prophet of Allah invite their people to worship only one God ,not make any associate with Him.
Again I see pro ,mentioned a part of the verse and left half part of the verse in order to establish his ill-motivated intention,He mentioned chapter 17,verse no-59
that "We wre refrain from sending signs" and he concluded that no more sign sending by God .
Here I put forward complete verse from the Quran.
"and nothing stop Us from sending the ayath[signs,evidence] but that the people of old denied them. And We sent the "she-camel" to Tamud as a clear sign but they did her wrong. And we send not the sign except to warn and to make them afraid."
Here I point out that in the last potion of the verse "except to warn and make them afraid " pro, did not mentioned this portion because he is trying to change the meaning of the verses by picking the verse like a cherry-picking.
These verse talking about the nation of Tamud-how these people behave with their prophet.Here Allah said after sending signs -they remaim stubborn,not repent ,not amend themselves ,not stopping doing mischief so Allah send no more sign for them -only sign come by way of punishment.These verse does not mean signs from Allah stop forever.Any sane person when read these verses they can understand what subject talking in these verse.
pro ,mention chap/2,verse no59 but here is mistake that verse no -not 59 in the Quran ,it is 62.
Q:2:62: Verily, those who believe and thosewho are jews ,christian and sabians ,whoever believe in Alah and the last day and does rightious deeds ,shall have their reward with their Lord on them shall be no fear...nor grieve.
These verse refers to those sabians ,jews and christians who sincerely followed the original teaching of their respective prophet without ever corrupting the true message and believing in the prophecy of the advent of Muhammad[pubh] made known by Moses[pubh] .Jesus[pubh] and other prophet and also those of them who lived in the days of the prophet but died before the news of his proclamation of the promised prophethood could reach them ,because,surely they would come into the fold of Islam if they known about it.
Belief in unity of Allah without making any partnership and the day of judgement and doing good was the religion of all the messenger of Allah preached to their people.
and it is Islam[submission].
Four revelation of Allah are mentioned by name in the Quran ,such as-Taurah,to Moses[pubh],Zaboor to Dawood[David],Injil to Isa[jesus] and final Quran to Muhammad[pubh].
It is an article of faith for every Muslim to beleive in all the prophet of God and all revelation of God .However, the present day Bible has the first five books of the OT attributed to Moses[pubh] and the Psalm attributed to David ,moreover, the NTor four gospel of the NTare not the Taurah, Zaboor or the Injeelwhich Quran refer to.
These books of the present day Bible may partly contain the word of God but these books are certainely not the exact,accurate and compete revelation given to the prophet.
Thw Quran presents all the diferent prophet of Allah as belonging to one single brotherhood. all had a similar prophetic mission and the same basic message . Because of this ,the fundamental teachings of the major faith cannot be contradictory. ,because source of this mission was one Almighty Allah.
Difference which exist between the various religion are not the responsibility of the prophet ,but of the followers of these prophet who fogot part of ,what they have been taught ,and furthermore ,misinterpreted,and change the scripture.
The another name of the Quran is Furqan-which means the criteria to judge right from wrong .and it is on the basis of the Quran that we can decipher which part of the previous scripture can be considere to be word of God.
Ihave not much space -Inshallah[if God willing] I will reply ur questions next time.
Con says: "It does not mean that Allah does not love His creations," but it does mean Allah does not love transgressors. If it doesn"t mean that, then Allah does not mean what he says, which makes him a liar.
Because Con couldn"t handle such a clear text showing that his god doesn"t love all people, he makes a vain and desperate attempt at finding a parallel statement in the Bible. He tries his hand at Matthew 13:42, 43; Psalm 59:5; Revelation 21:8; Proverbs 2:22; Malachi 4:3 and Psalm 65:1-3, and in not one of these verses does it ever say that God DOES NOT LOVE transgressors. All these verses speak of God punishing transgressors, but just because we punish our children doesn"t mean we don"t love them. It"s because we love them that we chastise them. The same is true of God. (Prov 3:12) None of these Biblical statements come even close to the Quaran"s clear statements that "Allah loveth not transgressors" [la uhibb al-mua'tadeen] (Sura 2:190) "Allah loveth [hubb] not those who do wrong." [ad-dalemeen] (Sura 3:57) The God of the Bible loves sinners, Allah does not.
Con accuses me of giving a distorted translation of Sura 28:48-49, but I never quoted those verses, so how could I give a wrong translation? Here is the verse I did quote: "Say: Have you considered if it is from Allah, and you disbelieve in it, and a witness from among the children of Israel has borne witness of ONE LIKE IT (mithlihi), so he believed, while you are big with pride; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people ... And before it the Book of Musa was a guide and a mercy: and this is a Book VERIFYING (it) IN the Arabic language that it may warn those who are unjust and as good news for the doers of good." (Sura 46:10, 12) Here is another book like the Quar"an (ONE LIKE IT) and it is verified by the Quar"an " challenge met.
Muhammad had no miracles, proof: "The unbelievers say, 'Why has a sign (ayatun) not been sent down upon him from his Lord?' Thou art ONLY a warner, and a guide to every people." (Sura 13:7) Muhammad"s only function was to warn people, not to perform miracles. After all, the statement "Thou art ONLY a warner" would make no sense if a warner could in fact perform wonders.
"Naught prevented Us from sending the signs (bial-ayati) but that the ancients cried lies to them; and We brought Thamood the She-camel visible, but they did her wrong. And We DO NOT SEND the signs, except to frighten." (Sura 17:59) By the way, if Allah has no partners, who is the "We" in this verse?
Regarding this verse, the late Sunni scholar Muhammad Asad candidly admitted:
"This highly elliptic sentence has a fundamental bearing on the purport of the Qur'an as a whole. In many places the Qur'an stresses the fact that the Prophet Muhammad, despite his being the last and greatest of God's apostles, WAS NOT EMPOWERED TO PERFORM MIRACLES similar to those with which the earlier prophets are said to have reinforced their verbal messages. His ONLY miracle was and is the Qur'an itself - a message perfect in its lucidity and ethical comprehensiveness, destined for all times and all stages of human development, addressed not merely to the feelings but also to the minds of men, open to everyone, whatever his race or social environment, and bound to remain unchanged forever"" (Asad, Message of the Qur'an [Dar Al-Andalus Limited 3 Library Ramp, Gibraltar rpt. 1993], p. 427, fn. 71; online edition) Note it doesn"t say in this sura that miracles are sent to warn, it is Con who misquotes the verse, not me.
"Not before this didst thou recite any Book, or inscribe it with thy right hand, for then those who follow falsehood would have doubted. Nay; rather it is signs, clear signs (ayatun bayyinatun) IN THE BREASTS of those who have been given knowledge; and none denies Our signs but the evildoers. They say, 'Why have signs (ayatun) not been sent down upon him from his Lord?' Say: 'The signs (al-ayatu) are only with God, and I am only a plain warner.' What, is it not SUFFICIENT for them that We have sent down upon thee the Book that is recited to them? Surely in that is a mercy, and a reminder to a people who believe." (Sura 29:48-51)
This last one sounds the death knell for any Muslim who claims that Muhammad performed miracles. Muhammad presents the Quran as his only miracle, the one miracle he had which was sufficient to prove his prophethood. I challenge Con to name one miracle Muhammad ever performed, and show us the evidence.
"After those prophets We sent forth Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the Torah already revealed, and gave him the Gospel, in which there is guidance and light, corroborating that which was revealed before it in the Torah, a guide and an admonition to the righteous. Therefore let the followers of the Gospel judge in accordance with what Allah has revealed therein. Evil-doers are those that do not base their judgements on Allah"s revelations.""Sura 5, Al-Ma"ida [The Table], verses 46, 47.
If, at the time these words were written, the Bible had already been corrupted, how could believers in the Gospel "judge in accordance with what Allah had revealed therein"? Thus believers in the Qur"an should accept that the Bible was uncorrupted at the time the Qur"an was written. On the other hand, there exist manuscripts of the Bible written four hundred or five hundred years before that time that are on public display in museums today. When comparing our modern Bibles with these ancient manuscripts, it is easily seen that there is no significant difference. The Bible is substantially the same. Certainly, the Bible has not changed since those words were written in the Qur"an saying that in the Gospel "there is guidance and light." I challenge Con to tell us, if the Torah, Psalms and Gospels we have in the Bible today are not the ones the Quar"an refers to, then what books is it referring to?
"He has revealed to you the Book with the truth, confirming the SCRIPTURES which preceded it; for He has already revealed the Torah and the Gospel for the guidance of men, and the distinction between right and wrong." (Sura 3, Al-Imran [The Imrans], verses 3, 4) "What We have revealed to you in the Book is the truth confirming previous SCRIPTURES.""Sura 35, Al-Fatir [The Creator], verse 31.
The only SCRIPTURES around in Muhammad"s day called the Torah, Psalms and Gospel are those we have in the Bible; so if Con says these are corrupted, he is saying that Allah failed to preserve his word, which contradicts the Quar"an which says "6:115 (Picktall) Perfected is the Word of thy Lord in truth and justice. There is naught that can change His words." (also Sura 10:64) So was Allah telling us to trust a corrupted book? Or was the Quar'an referring to other books that have magically disappeared without a trace? Which is it, Con?
Con is yet to answer the historical fact that Jesus died by crucifixion. All the first century evidence agrees with the Bible against the Quar'an, so Christianity is more likely to be true than Islam. Note: Con didn't come back for more on the Scientific accuracy of the Quar'an after being so clearly refuted. Vote Pro.
Pro mention the verse [86:6-7] and said that semen coming from man's backbone,it is your wrong translation.
Verse[86:6-7]- in Arabic-"khuliqa min ma'e dafiq" " yakhruju min baynee sulb and tarib"
Here there is two sentance-createdfrom water gushing forth and proceeding from betwen the backbone and the ribs.
yakhruju=proceeding,min=from , baynee=between, sulb and tarib=backbone and ribs.[see,Arabic-English dictionary].It did not say coming from man's backbone.Water of sperm come forth from between backbone and ribs.not from the backbones.-read carefully.
Water constitute to the formation of the male semen . Semen has manythings, such as, sperm,blood ,glucose,water ,protein,amino acid, etc.
Do you think the semen comes directly from the male phallus where it is stored like that?
The liquid white form of the semen comes together when the sperm is in the vas deferens,the prostate gland and the seminal vesicles add fluid to the sperm which is not yet white liquid, after mixture of all substance then the semen travel to the urethra from where it gushes forth just like Quran tells.
If your phallus is dissected it will show that sperm are not stored in white form inside, the white form comes from mixture of water ,blood and high concentration of glucise with sperm ,this only form after going through the prostate gland , its water that comes from between the ribs and backbone and form the liquid.
So ,Quran uniquely summarise that proceeding from the backbone and ribs.
You have to read about the mechanism of ejaculation of the seminal fluid and you find how nerve impulses are dischared from the lumbar and sacral segments of the spinal cord that lie within the first two lumbar vertebrae which are below the 12th ribs and above the remaining lumbar and sacrel vertebrae[backbone].
Again pro mention that man create from dust,sperm, congeal blood.
All statements of the Quran are unique.
The Quran refers to the lowley begining of a human being from a drop of sperm.
The human being are crated from dust -this verse are refers origin of human being .
another verse say man created from water .
All three statements are correct. We know that all the elements present in the body [i,e. the constituents element of the body] ,are all present in the earth in small or greater quantity ,this the scientific explanation for the quranic verse that says that man created from dust.
So,man created from sperm,dust and water ,all are correct ,there is no contradiction.
It is not contradiction but contradistinction .
Contradiction means ,statements which are opposite or conflicting and both cannot be true simultaneously.
Supose, I say that he is truthful and he is habitual liar then these two statement are contradiction.
And contradistinction means speaking about two different concept on the same subject without conflict ,suppose, I say that he is truthful and he is kind ,loving and honest the this two statement are not contradiction because first word truthful is not conflict with kind and loving,so it is contradistintction.
If I say we require water to make a cup of tea and we require tea-leaves or powder. Both statement are not contradiction because in order to make cup of tea we need both water and tea-powder and if you want sweet test then you can also add suger.
Similarly When Quran say man created from dust ,sperm and water -all are correct ,these are contradistinction.
Pro mention that man created from congeal blood-
In the Quran mention -the man created from "alaq"[96:1-3]
Meaning of the word "alaq" in Arabic -'"things that cling to some place ", the word literally use to describe leeches that cling a body to suck blood.
In the Quran use the word "alaq" it refes to embryo development inside the mother womb.
According medical science when sperm of the male unites with the ovum of the female the essence of the body to be born is formed ,this single cell is called zygote,in biology. This zygote instantly begin reproducing by dividing and eventually become a "piece of flesh" -it is called embryo.This embryo cling to the uterus with something like roots that is firmly fixed to the earth by its tendrils.Through this bond ,the embryo can obtain the substance essential to its development from the mother body .And Quran uniquely describe this scientific fact to use the word "alaq".
[ref. Keith. L. Moore, Developing Human, 3rd ed, W.B. sunders company 1982].
You said ,man created from merely congealed blood -I ask where you get the word "merely".
Quran say in Arabic - "Qhuliqal insana min alaq"
Qhuliqa means created
insana means human being
min means from
alaq means leech like substance- there is no arabic word equvalent to merely in this verse of the quran.
InshaAllah If Iget time I will write more.
Lest I failed to understand what the Qur"an meant by these strange words, I referred to the famous students of the Qur"an as well as to the ancient scholars. I discovered that all of them concurred with this rendering and said that Muhammad"s friends inquired about the sunset and that he gave them that answer. All the scholars such as the Baydawi, Jalalan, and Zamakhshari confirm it. The Zamakhshari remarks in his book, "the Kash-shaf",
"Abu Dharr (one of Muhammad"s close companions) was with Muhammad during the sunset. Muhammad asked him: "Do you know, O Abu Dharr where this sets?" He answered: "God and His apostle know better." Muhammad said: "It sets in a spring of slimy water"" (3rd Edition, Volume 2 p. 743,1987).
In his book, "The Lights of Revelation" (p. 399), the Baydawi indicates,
"The sun sets in a slimy spring; that is, a well which contains mud. Some of the readers of the Qur"an read it, "...a hot spring", thus the spring combines the two descriptions. It was said that Ibn "Abbas found Mu"awiya reading it (as) hot. He told him, "It is muddy." Mu"awiya sent to Ka"b al-Ahbar and asked him, "Where does the sun set?" He said in water and mud and there were some people. So he agreed with the statement of ibn al-"Abbas. And there was a man who composed a few verses of poetry about the setting of the sun in the slimy spring."
The Jalalan (p. 251) says that the setting of the sun is in a well which contains a murky mud. We found the same interpretation and text in the Tabari"s commentaries (p. 339) as well as in "Concise Interpretation of the Tabari" (p. 19 of part 2) in which he remarks that the well in which the sun sets "contains lime and murky mud".
These are the comments of the pillars of Islam and the intimate companions of Muhammad such as ibn Abbas and Aba Dharr. END QUOTE http://answering-islam.org...
The sun is too large to set on earth, and its heat would destroy this whole planet let alone a well of muddy water.
Muslims have offered seven contradictory interpretations of Sura 86:6-7 http://www.google.com...(Qur%27an_86%3A7)&ei=H5HQUp26LOnlsATHs4L4Cw&usg=AFQjCNH5fFLDV9FYrLwoi5VbsLVOo4DzVA&bvm=bv.59026428,d.cWc; Con has now added an eight interpretation, namely, that these verses don"t refer to sperm at all, but to water. He now contradicts the Muslims who preceded him like Moiz Amjad. http://www.google.com... In Con"s view it"s the water which is one of the ingredients of sperm that issues between the backbone and the ribs, not the sperm itself. On their website www.answering-christianity.com Muslims do acknowledge that it is indeed sperm which issues between the backbone and the ribs. http://www.google.com... The fact that they offer multiple answers shows they themselves are unsure what the Quar"an even means in this text, yet Con wants to bolster this verse as proof of scientific accuracy and use that accuracy as proof of divine revelation? What arrogance.
Con says alaqah means something that clings, and refers to the embryo or zygote, but "Those who claim that 'alaqah is used in the sense of a clinging thing in the Qur'an should consider that the embryo does not cease to be attached to the uterine wall when the musculo-skeletal system begins to develop around the 5th week. Yet the Qur'anic stages appear to describe a transition between a succession of states. Moreover it would be self-evident from aborted fetuses that at some stage the embryo becomes attached to something".Apologists who are fond of leech metaphors should consider that unlike a leech, which simply sucks blood from its host, the embryo circulates and exchanges blood and waste products with its mother. A leech has many characteristics such as size, behaviour, shape, color, appearance. Why would the author use 'alaqah intending such a metaphorical meaning when his listeners could not be expected to know in what respect the analogy applies? It is a typical Texan Sharpshooter fallacy of apologists to choose one characteristic, shape, to an arbitrarily very limited degree find a similarity with an embryo, and draw any conclusions, particularly as the early embryo passes through a wide range of shapes and is itself a biological organism. Moreover, such apologetics have to conveniently ignore the embryo's yolk sac when depicting the embryo"Given that one of the meanings of 'alaqah is congealed blood, which was also the understanding given in numerous tafsirs, it is most unwise to use a word with such a biological meaning to describe a biological process if that meaning was not the intention. A perfect author would avoid arousing any such suspicion of inaccurate biology with his choice of words." http://www.google.com...
Con tries to reconcile the discrepancies in the Quar"an by saying that man was created our of many different elements, and so by naming them individually in different suras Allah is doing contradistinction, not contradiction. Well, let"s see:
We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape. Sura 15:26
But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing? Sura 19:67
So how is it possible to create man from NOTHING and yet create him from CLAY? I"d like to see Con explain how this isn"t a contradiction. Will he now say it was clay mixed with an ingredient called "nothing"?
The Quar"an denies that Jesus died by crucifixion. Even those who don"t believe in the Bible know that the death of Jesus is one indisputable historical fact. "Most scholars agree that Jesus was a Jewish teacher or rabbi from Galilee who preached his message orally, was baptized by John the Baptist, and was crucified in Jerusalem on the orders of the Roman prefect, Pontius Pilate." http://www.google.com... This fact is supported by Josephus and Tacitus, who lived in the first century, and the Gospel writers who were eyewitnesses and contemporaries of Jesus. So all the historical data we have agrees with the Bible teaching of Jesus" crucifixion. The Quar"an disagrees with this evidence, and Islam is therefore less likely to be true than Christianity. Unlike Jesus, Muhammad had no miracles to back up his claim to divine authority, and unlike the Bible, the Quar"an does not teach that God"s love is extended to all mankind, but is a self-centered love that Allah only has to those who do good. Jesus preached that we should love our enemies, Allah does not love his! By contradicting Jesus, a true prophet, Muhammad showed his religion less likely to be true than Christianity.
I began with quoting from the Bible -1]Are not on the other side Jordan ,by the way sun goeth down ,in the land of the Cananaties ,which dwelll in the champaign over against ,,,plain of Moreh."
How sun goeth down to the land of cananaties ,a city .Do I think that sun really goeth down to a city?
2] woman clothed with sun....[Revelation 12:1]-how to explain these verses?
quranic verse say -he found it set in a spring of murky water .This verse simply referring to person/s perception.It inform us that Dhulqurnain reached a place on his westward campaign where it appeared to him as if the sun was setting in a murky lake.
The word "wajada" means perceiving something by using one of the five senses-according to authoritative lexicon of quranic terms "Mufradat al Quran by Rajib Isfahani.
Quran has used the word from the perspective of Dhulqurnain and merely describe his perceptionand how it appear in his sight.
all clasical muslim exegets have understand same way.
Jalalayn said- ..its setting a spring is perspective of eye.
Ibn kathir wrote:- he saw the sun as if it were setting in the ocean .This is something which everyone when goes to the coast can see.It looks as if the sun is setting in to the sea but in fact it never leaves its path in which it fixed.To use word sun set and sun rise when infact ,we know that the sun neither rise or set ,it is only the earth rotating on its axis which make us perceive sunrise and sunset.In our language ,we have always used certai epithets for different region of the world. for exmp- Japan is a country and in japanese language ,this name means- land of the sunrise.Shall I thiink that is really sun rise from japan?
When I say sun set in the west ,-I am taking it as a place and when I say sun rise at 4a,m, -I use as a time .So Dhulqurnain did not reach that place of sunset -used as time ,he reached at the time of sunset.
Pro said that Bible alwas teaches love and morality. Now I move to bible and see what kind of love and morality display.
1] Christiane are of God and everyone is wicked [1Jhn5:19]
2] Shun those who disagree with your religion [Roman16:17].
3]If any one come to you and does not bring yhis teaching ,do not receive him in to your house .Whoever greet him take part in his wicked works.[2 John:1:10].
3] A man should hate his father ,mother ,wife and children..[Luke:14:26].
4] If wright eyes causes you to sin ,take it out and throw it away...right hand causes sin cut off and throw it away[Matthew5:29-30].
4] Thus says the lord God of Israel ,put your sword on your side each of you and go to and fro from gate to gate throughout the camp and each of you kill his brother,companion,friend and his neighbour.[Exod:32:26-27].
If bible love sinner then how Bible say cut hand and throw it away and tear the eye/
How Bible order that kill his friend and neighbour ,on the other hand Bible love all sinner .
If you read book of. Genesis capt19, verse no-31 -36 Iam not going to details just mention no-36 - Thus both the daughter of Lot became pregnant by their father.
What kind of morality acheive by reading this passage of the Bible/?
I ask can you give Bible to read this passage to your daughter? Obviously not ,any sane person cant do it.
Pro his previous argument said if we punish his child ,it does not mean I dont love child ,nice but one thing before punishing -you must let the child to know what is right and what is wrong and what you like and what you dislike.
If your child do bad thing and you say I love you ,it means you encourage to do bad thing and at the end you give punishment -then you are unjust and hypcrite.
So according to your logic you make God unjust[God forbid] .
That's why in the Quran Allah says -that He does not love transgressor or mischief maker,it means He gave warning to save His ceation from the punishment of hellfire.
He sent messanger to the people as a warner to guide them on the path of rightousness and gave glad tidings to those who follow His commands.Quran display more love and high standard of morality compare to Bible.
.Finally ,I like to say that how people trust Bible because 32 biblical scholar with highest emminence -they declared that "king james version has grave defect" [read preface of the revised standard version] ,how people accept- this version is true book of God?Inside the Bible many interpolation ,alteration going on ,Bibleinterpolation ,concotion ,alteration -Bible say-how we can say ,we are wise ,for we have the law of the Lord, when actually the lying pen of the scribe has handled it falsely" [Jeremiah:8:8]
86. Until, when he reached
The setting of the sun,
He found it set
In a spring of murky water:
Near it he found a People:
We said: "O N26;ul-qarnain!
(Thou hast authority,) either
To punish them, or
To treat them with kindness." http://www.sacred-texts.com...
The Quar'an describes Zulquarin as actually reaching the place where the sun sets. It says "WHEN HE REACHED the setting of the sun;" it does not say that it seemed to him that he had reached this place, and indeed, it could never SEEM to anybody that they had reached this place because no matter how far we travel towards the sun it will always appear to be far ahead on the horizon. So how could this REACHING the place of the sun set be written from a human standpoint as Con suggests? More embarrassing to Islam, not only does it say that he REACHED the place where the sun sets, but hat "he FOUND IT;" found what? The sun! How could it even APPEAR, even from a human standpoint, that one had FOUND the sun? It doesn't say that it appeared as though the sun was setting in water on the horizon, but that this dude went on a journey to find the spot where the sun sets, and he FOUND THE SUN in a spring of murky water! How could it even appear to a man that he had found the sun when the sun isn't on the earth? What's more, it couldn't be that the sun appeared to him to be setting in a spring of water for two reasons: (1) the horizon is too far away to see a spring. The ocean, yes, but a spring of murky water would be invisible from so far on the horizon. So Zulquarin needed to be very close to that spring, close enough to see it, but at this close distance the sun would not even appear to be going down into the spring, because it would either still be far ahead on the horizon, or, it would have already set and it would be night. (2) The account does not picture him as seeing this sun setting in the spring of murky water from a great distance away, but rather, it tells us that he went and FOUND the spot where the sun sets, and THERE he FOUND IT set in a spring of murky water.
Not only did he FIND the sun set in this murky water, but NEAR IT (near the sun) he found a people. A people living NEAR THE SUN? This is unscientific and silly. If this was written from a human point of view, then the author must have been delusional. Con makes a desperate attempt to find parallels to this nonsense in the Bible, so he came up with Deuteronomy 11:30. Sure, it seems like the sun goes down on the other side of the Jordan, but surely they never claimed they FOUND the sun there, least of all in spring of murky water! That's not possible, even from a human point of view, unless one is mentally challenged or on hallucinogenic drugs. As for the woman clothed with the sun in Revelation 12, John says these were symbolic visions at the very beginning of Revelation (1:1), so Con is simply ignorant of Scripture.
Con says that Zulquarin arrived at the time of sunset, but that's not what the text says. It says "he reached THE SETTING OF THE SUN, he FOUND IT SET in a spring of murky water." It was, not the time, but the SUN itself that he found SET at a specific PLACE in murky water. What was in the water, Con? Con is denying what his own holy book says because its so ridiculous. This seems to presuppose a flat earth, otherwise how can there be an extreme point in the East? It does not say, he went as far as possible on land in these directions and then observed the sun-rise or sun-set while standing at this shore. A sunrise there would be basically just the same as at any other place on this earth, at land or sea. It would still look as if it is setting "far away". It does say, that he reached THE PLACE where the sun sets
I argued that the God of the Bible loves all mankind. His love isn't reserved only for those who do good. "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." (Rom 5:8) "This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins." (1 John 4:10) "For God loved THE WORLD" (John 3:16)...In contrast, the Quar'an is clear that God DOES NOT LOVE sinners! Con tried to find parallels to this in the Bible by giving a list of verses that deal with our relationships to each other, such as Lot and his daughters having sex, and Jesus telling us to hate our family, but in not a single on of these does it say that God himself doesn't love us! Surely we humans make make mistakes, but God's love is supposed to be perfect, and infinite. Allah's love is limited, the love of our God is not. And all these examples are simply red herrings where I doubt Con even understands the Christian view of them, because Christians do read the account of Lot's daughters having sex with him to their children, just as they read every other Biblical text. But we don't teach them that these actions were right. Even the most holy men of God in the Bible were guilty of sin at some point, and because God is so loving he forgave them and helped them to change. Those who refuse to repent and turn around he punished. But this doesn't mean he doesn't love them.
Con brings up Exodus 32:26-27 to prove the God of the Bible doesn't love everyone. Well, compare this with one of the more striking contradictions found in the Quran concerning freedom of worship. On the one hand there are a number of expressions favoring religious liberty, such as, "Let there be no compulsion in religion." And on the other hand, time and again expressions appear that indicate the direct opposite: "When the sacred months are passed, kill those that join other gods to God wherever ye find them; and seize them, besiege them, lie in wait for them with every kind of ambush: but if they shall convert, and observe prayer, and pay the obligatory alms, then let them go their way for God is gracious." And again: "Fight for the cause of God against those who fight against you: Kill them wherever you find them. .".". Fight therefore until there be no more civil discord, and until the only worship be that of God," or "until the temptation stops.""Sura 2:186-190, 212, 213; 8:12; 9:5, 124, Rodwell.
Modern Muslims claim that the Quran teaches freedom of religion and advocates only defensive warfare, but can such expressions as "kill those that join other gods to God wherever you find them," "but if they convert .".". let them go their way," and "kill them .".". until the temptation stops" be construed as either defensive warfare or permitting freedom of religion? The very Arabic word jihad disproves such a contention, for it means, "A religious war against infidels or Mohammedan heretics." (Webster) Many, many Muslims were slain by other Muslims because of religious differences. Certainly that does not spell out freedom of religion.
As for Jesus saying 'hate' your family, the Greek word for "hate" at that time simply meant to 'love less.' We are not to love anyone more than God, not even our relatives. Con obviously doesn't know Jesus, for he taught the second greatest commandment was to love your neighbor as yourself. (Mark 12:31) At least Jesus had miracles to prove he was the Messiah, Muhammad did not! I challenged him to name one miracle Muhammad performed and show us proof, he didn't do it. He has on round left but sorry I won't get to rebut him.
The Bible warns God's creation as well against sinning in all forms, but it does so without making the claim that God does not love those whom he created! (Deu 19:1-4)
The Quar'an can't even agree on who was the first Muslim, so Con needs to deal with the Quaran's problems before he attachs the Bible. http://answering-islam.org... I'm out of space, thanks for a great debate.
kaisor forfeited this round.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by janetsanders733 3 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Good Job to both debaters. However, I think Pro had a lot of "knock down arguments". For one, he listed historical facts to support Christianity and to show that Jesus is the Messiah and the Son of God. He also showed how the Quran contradicts history, science, and the reality of God's existence. He showed how Jesus proved to be the Judeo-Christian God(The one True God).
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