The Instigator
snowtigerspeaks
Pro (for)
Winning
1 Points
The Contender
backwardseden
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Christianity produces a net benefit to society

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Post Voting Period
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after 1 vote the winner is...
snowtigerspeaks
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/31/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 830 times Debate No: 104710
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (86)
Votes (1)

 

snowtigerspeaks

Pro

Christianity has had many people commit atrocities "under its flag"

I would argue that Christian principles and disciplines provide more benefit to society than negative externalities.

This should be a self-evident position to hold if you consider the what the media focuses on. The media's job is to get people to tune in #1 and #2 to present factual reports on events. Sometimes #1 can overshadow #2. The point is the media would not think reporting a religious atrocity is newsworthy unless it had a level of significance. Why would it be significant to show a church group volunteering or gathering to worship, these things happen much more often than 1 individual or 1 group under the banner of Christian ethos committing violent acts.

To contrast this point one of the often heard examples of Christian oppression is the idea that it supports slavery. This is easily an inflammatory topic on its own but I hope to focus on the concepts and principles of Christianity as I logically understand them.

The main concepts taught by Jesus, the central focus of scripture, is how to live a more abundant life. With this premise, I would subject that the basic idea on how to live an abundant life as a slave is more along the lines of what scripture is speaking to. Ironically enough, why would a group of Jewish people write these letters and text as a pro slavery stance? In fact, the Jewish people were enslaved for close to 400 years by Egypt and were also technically under the rule of the Romans. The latter may not be considered slavery per se but it definitely wasn't freedom.

Historically, the majority of the United States at the time of the "end of slavery" post civil war would claim to be Christian and furthermore the real end of slavery 100 years later in the 1960s had as a main spokesperson a Christian man Martin Luther King Jr. This is a major accomplishment for Christianity in the sense that Slavery has been a very strong institution that has existed for thousands of years and will most likely continue to exist in most of the world especially because of the lack of Christian influences. Slavery, most would agree has more negative consequences for more people than it has positive benefits therefore would be a net negative benefit to society at large. Although unarguable and unethical slavery does produce significant benefit for select few through oppression.

Christianity has #1 so many positive acts everyday that it would be uncommon and thus significant to hear a report of "bad Christians" and #2 taught principles and concepts for abundant living which eventually did lead to the "abolishment" of slavery in the United states.

These little everyday acts of kindness and the significant end of slavery are positive benefits in society and I suggest far out way the negative consequences of "bad Christians"
backwardseden

Con

"Christianity has had many people commit atrocities "under its flag"" Oh that"s absolutely 100% true. Yet strangely you decided to post this very unimportant debate. Why is that? I mean jeez, your god is far worse than Hitler, Mao, Hong Xiuquan, Pol Pot, Stalin, all serial killers, all rapists, all pedophiles, all torturers, all sodomizers etc etc etc combined. I mean jeez according to your bible, your god knowingly created them all. And if your god is a true god, in which we all know he isn"t, he would know BEFOREHAND all of their evil and hate a good sextillion of years before they would be committed.

Oh yes I 100% agree with you" this SHOULD be self evident. "The point is the media would not think reporting a religious atrocity is newsworthy unless it had a level of significance." Well um gee. No. Mass murders are being committed every day now. Especially with guns. And because it virtually an everyday thing, things like these are getting ignored by the media. Especially where legal guns are plentiful in places like Chicago were pretty much anybody can shoot anybody. Now if someone were to commit an atrocity in a church, such as a mass shooting, let"s say 10 or more, oh boy would that gain national attention and the media would be all over it.

Christian oppression? Are you serious? Your god is nothing but oppression. Have you even read you bible? Its nothing but oppression. Here"s just a few examples"Indeed as point blank stated god is far far far worse than Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin, Hong Xiuquan combined. Here's some examples... 3,000 EX 32:27-28, 14,700 NU 16:49, 24,002 NU 25: 1-11, 12,000 JOS 8: 1-25, 10,000 JG 1:4, 120,000 JG 8:7-10, 42,000 JG 12:3-6, 1,000 JD 15:14-15, 3,000 JD 16:27-30, 25,101 JD 16:27-30, 1 SAM 4 34,002, 1 SAM 6:19 50,070, 2 SAM 8 65,850, 1 KI 20: 28-29 100,000, 1 KI 20: 30 27,000, KI 19 35 -37 185,000, 2 CHR 13 17-18 500,000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, 2 CHR 28:6 120,000, Esther 9:5-18 75,813 etc etc etc Yeah god is really so moral huh? There"s no such a thing as "love" within any genocide.

Your god also truly hates children. Here's some prime examples... 2 Samuel 12:11-14 "From evilbible.com [The child dies seven days later.] This has got to be one of the sickest quotes of the Bible. God himself brings the completely innocent rape victims to the rapist. What kind of pathetic loser would do something so evil? And then he kills a child! This is sick, really sick!", Deuteronomy 2:34, Numbers 31:17-18, Leviticus 26:21-22 rob you of your children?, 1 Samuel 15:3, Hosea 13:16 "Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up." Wow. Such a nice gentle caring god. This book should clearly be read to children - correct?

Slavery? Your god endorses slavery. The entire chapter of EX:21 proves this. Especially verses 20-21 which gives permission to beat slaves so if they don't die within a couple of days after the beatings, hey that's OK.
Your christ also endorses slavery Luke 12: 47-48.
"The main concepts taught by Jesus, the central focus of scripture, is how to live a more abundant life." Really? Would you care to rephrase that? Oh I get it by giving up you entire family, your siblings, your parents, ALL of your friends and loved ones Luke 14:26-33 you can live a more abundant life? NOPE. That's how EVERYBODY worsens their lives is to be entirely cut off from human contact. No exceptions. None. Especially when you cannot even prove that this christ figure even exists. You mention sooooo much on slavery and yet your god and christ fully endorses it + a whole lot more in today's society. Please do come research.
https://www.youtube.com... - Atheist Experience
https://en.wikipedia.org... - Slavery in Sudan
http://www.africanholocaust.net... - 21st Century Slavery
Debate Round No. 1
snowtigerspeaks

Pro

Your first paragraph is either a non sequitur or in reality you believe in God you just hate him because he is not you.

God created man, Hitler is man, God is evil. IF free will exist then God can create a being and be displeased with the actions of the being without being responsible for the person's actions. The only way the logical progression of nonsensical meaning makes any sense is if you believe that God created man without free will then we would be doing what we were programed to do by God and under his constant control. But of course you probably believe that men do not have free will or if they do it is unknowable because even if you think we have free will how do you not know that you have just been programmed to think that or by chaotic interactions with environment you think you have know that you have free will.

You can't say all rapists, pedophiles and so on, you don't know. No one can know definitively know that it is incalculable. it is meaningless words thrown to invocation reaction. it is not grounded in logic because who are you to claim to be the moral authority on all of those people. besides it's a really bad bet, if 1 of those people happens to be worse then God then you're wrong. And you have no idea of knowing if it is true so it doesn't make you superior it just makes you silly.

Foreknowledge if anything proves free will because it allows humans to act their beliefs. besides if you compare the length of this life to what a christian believes is an eternity in heaven then it means God is infinitely more good then all of those people because he created an infinitely perfect universe for people that don't do those bad things. I think society benefits more by saying this life is incredibly short and you should do good things here because there is an eternity beyond this life. Where is with no God and no eternity there is absolute nothingness after death which means pleasure/pain principle rules, get as much pleasure as possible out of life because when you die it is over. There is a sense of accountability that the majority of christians feel towards their actions which helps motivate positive societal behaviors like charity.

That's great has any other society founded by a group of religious people every abolished slavery? no... hmmm well I guess the Christians just thought it would be funny? no don't be stupid, slavery has existed for a long time and still exists and will continue to exist. is not the same thing to tell a kid not to touch a hot stove because it burns and say a kid is being enslaved because their parents wont let them touch the red stove. The bible is a collection of writings that tells people how to live a meaningful life that transcends culture. It would be far more oppressive if it just ignored slavery and let people behave however they want. and don't judge past culture again who do you think you are, what have you ever done that you are so endowed with moral certitude to have perfect understanding of the past that you can hold it accountable. utterly unhelpful, you have no more power to judge the past then to control the weather.

Unfortunately there are a lot evils in the world. When people are allowed to choose God and life or death and sin there are consequences. I know it is difficult to accept that bad people who choose bad actions is part of reality. I think people don't truly grasp the impact of their actions, like a pebble thrown in a pond we see the splash and ripple but we don't know how deep the rock goes or how wide the ripples before they fade. If God wanted slavery he would have created men without free will and could force them to behave but then there would be no meaning because you have no choice.

I would challenge you question where you get your values, you seem to be very angry about some serious injustices especially since you believe that God doesn't exist and we are all just subjective collections of atoms reacting to chaos in our environment.
backwardseden

Con

Wow. Totally wrong. You are terrible at psychology and totally 100% incapable of psychoanalyzing anybody just as most christians are. Its why they believe in their god and have no outlets to bank on. If this was a game4 of poker I"d take all of your chips before you"d even were to sit down to the table.
Here"s the thing.. We both know that YOUR god does not exist because YOU cannot prove that he does. It is the mere belief in YOUR god that creates chaos, pain and suffering especially to children, that is IF YOU were to read you bible in which case its rather obvious that YOU blatantly don"t. All you do is invent excuses just as nearly all christians do so you and they can keep that noose from strangling you.

Now get this and get it good" I said "according to your bible". Got it?

Now tou show me anywhere in your bible where it says something to the effect of "I the lord thy god grants man free will." In fact there"s nothing like it. So YOUR god of print only shows you directly that you have no free will. None.
Here"s also some common sense videos for you to watch showing you that you have no free will. None. IF you believe in YOUR god.
https://www.youtube.com... - All Knowing god versus Free Will: The Greatest Religious Contradiction
https://www.youtube.com... - Free Will With god
https://www.youtube.com... - god Favors Evil
https://www.youtube.com... - god allows Free Will?
Another example in fact god shuts you down with Free Will all over his bible. A perfect example of that are the 10 commandments... Threatening people with death is taking Free Will away.
Thankfully pretty much no one follows the justice followed by the ridiculous mayhem madness god.
The 10 commandments are a perfect example. How can you uphold stupid idiotic laws that have no meaning? If those were to be upheld today as a guess at least 80% of this population would not be in existence or better. But that is what is estimated of those who claim that they are christians who do not read their bible except for once every other week. And that"s only a couple of verses, if that. So they are not true christians.
* Taking thy lord thy god"s name is vein requires being stoned to death (blasphemy).
* Working on the sabbath also requires to be put to death.
* Adultery requires to be put to death
* Cursing at your parents requires you as the child to be put to death. That"s PURE evil to put children to death for cursing at their parents. But NOT according to your god. And its stated it at least 5 times according to your god. So are you going to follow your god"s wishes and put children to death every time they curse at their parents? Y____? N____? Why? Why not? Well of course not. So you disobey a direct order from YOUR god.

Oh ab-so-lu-te-ly anyone can say all rapists and pedophiles. IIf not then that means that your god is not in control of everything - that he allows the rapists to do as THEY please, then your god does not care, is not kind, suffering, horror take place, does not know everything, is not just, is not omnipotent, and most importantly is not perfect.

Tracie Harris: "Your question was regarding free will as an argument for allowing suffering. That's when you get into the problem of evil. Now the problem of evil as we all know is not an argument that demonstrates that no god exists or that god exists. What it demonstrates is that god is your god is an a$$. What she's telling you is she believes in a god, and I assume she worships this god? Its like is she 'happy' about her god?" Caller: "Oh oh yeah everything except for the old testament." Tracie "In other words what she is saying is 'I love this god who believes that the free will of the rapist is more important than the free will of the child being raped. That I think that its worth it to have a child be raped because I really really put a high value on a rapist's free will.""

Am out of space.
Debate Round No. 2
snowtigerspeaks

Pro

I've never suggested aptitude in those fields, I'd wonder if you have any acumen in psychology. My only claim is logically & mathematically if we were to quantify positive benefits to large groups of people then beliefs in an infinitely perfect universe valued by 1 point per person per action over the course of infinity is significantly more valuable compared to the idea that there is absolutely nothing after this life. If there is nothing after this life with no accountability for action then i don't have to do a in depth psychoanalysis of an individual person. A group at large will behave based on value. If they do not perceive any benefit then they don't do it. People will sacrifice and go through pain because historically we have figured out doing things we don't like ie. studying for test, it will set off a chain of positive events. The real comparison is values systems in society.

Do you know most Christians? I feel like you have a hard time valuing christians. You do realize a significant number of the top 10 highest IQ people in the world believe in Christianity. You act as if all Christians are stupid because they dont believe what you do.

You're not playing poker if you take the chips before someone sits down & deal cards. Much like in this debate you are mostly tangent to the argument & in reality you are just here to reinforce your idea of what a Christian is & refuse to maintain focus on a logical progression.

My point is I don't have to defend God's existence in this forum because this forum doesn't question the existence in God just the majority of people's actions in society based on their belief in God.

In what way can you tie the belief in God to Chaos? Jewish Rabbi's suggest Chaos is a force like gravity that existence and order is a force like gravity that exists not merely consequences of belief. The average Christian especially in the united states fits into 2 major categories you have the church going group that goes to buildings at least 1x per week to pray, listen to someone tell them the right way to live and then they go out and intentionally do nice things for people and try to make a positive difference. the other major category do not go to church but may be 2 or 3x per year around easter they say they are Christians and claim to be good or try to be good specifically because they want to go to heaven & they think they can get there by being good. Both by in large are positive benefits to society. All religions including atheism have radical people that take things way too far and some commit violent acts.

You don't kno me at all, how can you say it is blatantly obvious I don't? if anything is blatant this shows the lack of effort you have put into this argument because about 50% of it is just trying to discredit some person you don't know & therefore have no way of knowing.

this is a discussion, I don't look at your statements like "you are terrible at psychology" & [therefore I don't have to argue against what you're saying] as an excuse to invalid my argument. I consider the merit & of that statement as others it is merely an attempt to discredit or punch down strawmen.
It doesn't have to be literally written to be implied. IF God created man & say this is good then men commits negative actions & God says I am displeased with them because of their behavior that is a perfect example because if they didn't have free will he couldn't be displeased with them. Cain & Able

I have already unseated this argument free will can exist simultaneously with foreknowledge Like watching a recorded game of football i know the end result but i can't change what the players choose to do.

Again with 10 commandments just shows that you are angry at God for not creating the world according to how you think it should be. Ever hear of Icarus, it's getting a little hot with that ego. you can threaten death without taking free will. & if the definition of life is engaged with God then opposite is death
backwardseden

Con

No this is NOT a discussion. This is an argument is which you are losing quite badly at in which you just can"t stand to be proven wrong and or incorrect because you just can"t stand it to be proven that your god is quite fallible.and hellacious. That murders you deep inside.

Your first paragraph has absolutely nothing to do with anything and I really don"t have any idea where it came from and or where its going so I am just going to ignore it. Your entire RD2 was hinged upon free will. Let"s see how drastically you will avoid that topic because its a topic that if you believe in god, it doesn"t exist.
"You do realize a significant number of the top 10 highest IQ people in the world believe in Christianity." Really? According to what? You? Strange if true then these so called creationists and or geniuses would put god on trial again and win. But they won"t. They are not stupid. At least not as stupid as you to bring in such a class act that that doesn"t exist. Why won"t these so-called creationists NOT put YOUR god on trial again? Its because all they have to go on is faith. Faith is not a pathway to truth. And faith is not evidence of any kind. And faith cannot be proved. They know it and they will NEVER shame themselves by doing so. Next time you try to bluff, please use some common sense. K? So in fact that"s not being smart at all!!!!!!!!! "Faith is the reason people give when they don"t have any evidence" Matt Dillahunty
"You're not playing poker if you take the chips before someone sits down & deal cards" Oh but I am. And I"m winning. I"m holding a Royal Flush. You are holding nothing and not even sat down to the table. Its also rather clear and point blank obvious that you do not play poker.
"My point is I don't have to defend God's existence" " That"s because you like everybody else who has ever existed simply can"t because there"s 0 proof, none that he"s ever existed. A belief doesn"t count unless acted upon violently with hate and evil which is often the case with YOUR so-called god.
Strangely, but not surprisingly also you avoided christian oppression from RD1 as well as slavery which is oppression. Now why is that? . .
And this paragraph also has nothing to do with anything. So it shall be dutifully ignored also. "In what way can you tie the belief in God to Chaos?"...
Oh but I do know you a lot better than you know me. Take one lucky guess how?
"IF God created man"" Nope. Stop. That right there is your debate fault. And its an automatic loser that no atheist or anyone of intelligence or has an education should EVER bite into because after all there"s 1. No proof that god exists. 2. Which god? 3. Why should anybody ever believe in YOUR god? 4. "If" is a pretty BIG word 5. And quite silly at it. Then you continue blah blah blah showing god"s imperfections 6. Therefore why should anyone WANT to believe in an imperfect god? How utterly moronic. And 7. If this god of YOURS didn"t know the outcome that he"d be "displeased with them" then he"s most certainly NOT a god. See that"s the problem with you christians is that you do not have the ability to foresee the simpleton obvious.
"I have already unseated this argument free will can exist" " Oh you most certainly have not. Not even close. Try harder. And it is blatantly obvious that you have not even bothered to look at the videos which will always "unseat" you. No exceptions. None.
"When she dies does she get to go to heaven? If she gets to go to heaven will she be happy? And she"ll probably say "yes". And you say "Will you be able to choose and do anything you want while you are in heaven?" And she"ll say "yes." And so you are basically saying "you"ll have free will in heaven?" So you have free will in heaven and no one is being hurt, raped, so you can do anything you want and no one gets hurt. If god has that power in heaven, he must have that power on earth. So he"s chose not to set that condition/ toggle switch which means he"s a dick." Phil Ferguson
Debate Round No. 3
snowtigerspeaks

Pro

I feel pretty centered if you're asking about my reflection of events. I personally believe it will do your argument & arguably your blood pressure much better to consider the complexity of the conversation and the world which people live in. rather than dismiss them & storm through debates like a spoiled princess who wants her way.
murder is a powerful word why do you think you used it?

to the question of my first paragraph, you can read back & see you literally accused me of being terrible at psychology & totally 100% incapable of psychoanalyzing anyone. I merely suggested that i never made such a claim of experience. I am providing anecdotal evidence of obvious everyday behavior that I think when most people will consider the world they live & those around them that they will agree that the analogy is relevant and useful.

You keep making claim that free will precludes belief in God and provided no evidence of such. I could by your standard just as easily argue we should kill all butterflies because they flap their wings & cause tornados & hurricanes because I saw it in some stretched youtube video. A First cause God does not predetermine behavior as much as foreknowledge does not change free will. I know my dog will eat food tonight & I have foreknowledge that you will eat food in the next 48 to 72 hours does that mean I have caused you to eat food against your will!? how absurd your claim that God knows everything & therefore puppets people unable to think or control themselves. But you have made the grave error of clutching to science as a savior from belief in good, evil, order, & chaos. Objectivity does not tell people how to live it tells people what will occur on average & if you follow the tenets of a Christian faith in society what will objectively happen is the moral structure with which our society is held together will produce better standards of living for a majority of people. Not overnight but over time. Violence rarely changes opinions merely silences objections.

I put the information out there feel free to dig around & disprove me on the IQ statement. I appreciate that you disagree with it, I had foreknowledge that you might. So, in a way you may say that I imposed my will on you since you don't believe in free will. Nonetheless I have complete confidence in the claim even you could find it.

Let's play a game... it's called add the context to the quote! "My point is I don't have to defend God's existence in this forum because this forum doesn't question the existence in God just the majority of people's actions in society based on their belief in God." I have no problem debating the existence of God w/ you in a debate about the existence of God&I can do it while staying on topic.

a logically factual statement: you can lose a poker hand with a royal flush. just as you can win with a 7 & 2 in your hand.
Poker is not just chance it is how you play the game, players, & self

You think "A belief doesn't count unless acted upon violently with hate & evil" ??? please explain because I think I see why you are getting so worked up about this topic. I thought it might be because you have to prove it to yourself but now I think you actually believe hate & evil is an appropriate response.

I addressed slavery in the very first post..... smh
I don't know if she gets to go to heaven I don't make that decision. Happiness is subjective & can be controlled by most people. Will she be able to choose anything the answer no. Choices create limits, limits create boundaries & boundaries create definitions. You're attributing characteristics that no Christian supports about heaven etc.. Every choice bears responsibility you will either be a slave to the negative consequences of the choices you make or the good ones. read some Nietzsche. "God is dead, We have killed him, with what water can we purify ourselves" we are missing out on a much richer conversation because you can't get over your belief that God doesn't exist
backwardseden

Con

Spoiled? Oh that"s a good one considering the absolute miserable fact that you have your pathetic god and you believe that he can do unto you whatever you want him to. Yet strangely he doesn"t.

Interesting isn"t it that you have yet to make one single quote from your pathetic stinking bible. Now why is that? Oh yes, I forgot. Gee. Its filled with pain suffering, misery, pure evil especially geared towards children. Awe its also filled with the most discussed thing in your bible which is faith in which no true god would ever rely on. Its also got this cockamamey ideal that your god would ever even dream about using text as a form of communication, in which no god would ever ever ever ever do as text is the worst form of communication. It also scraps the ideal that peace, love, honor, caring for each other, kindness, harmony etc etc etc has never taken place because in turn what your bible has shownm you from its god spitting out of his yap is anger, wrath, vengeance, rage fury, jealousy" Jealousy? What? From ANY supreme deity? Jealousy is nothing more than anger as disguised fear. Even worse is this so-called god of yours since he has these admitted emotions it proves that he is not omnipotent nor perfect. Even worse for you is that this god of yours would pass down these emotions to man so in turn man could learn to hate. Way to go god! Way to go you and billions of other for worshiping this sadistic pig in the first place. Keep up the good work. Its suits you best.

Now other peoples of the earth do much better off without you god. Well of course that"s only true until your christian brethren nearly wiped them out with such terrible and horrific ferocity such as what they did with the Inca, nearly all native American Indian tribes, the aborigines were nearly wiped out Hindu"s. Those that are Buddhists - they believe in the ---end--- of suffering. Your christ AND god preaches the beginning of suffering. BIG DIFFERENCE. Gosh golly, I just can"t possibly imagine which one I will choose? All in that list DO NOT in any way practice nor preach hate nor evil anywhere close to what your god does. Sorry. Worshiping different/ false gods according to YOUR god IS NOT evil in any way, shape or form. Certainly in no way to mount massive point blank hypocritical contradictions genocides against those that do that YOUR god has surmounted in the OT. Evil is not a NEED. Evil is NOT a necessity. Evil is NOT a requirement. But according to YOUR god it is. Pitiful.

Indeed ab-so-lu-te-ly spoiled rotten are you with an evil hateful god who loves to cause genocides, evil, hate, needless death, bloodshed, famine especially in Africa wow, especially what is going on in Puerto Rico for 46 days and may continue until Feb or Mar (way to go YOUR god), the wonderful church shooting that happened today but was NOT taken over by the media because it such a pastime now that practically nobody cares anymore and with the football games on today hey that most certainly takes precedence, wow you and your god are ever soooooooooooooo spoiled rotten. And with Trump in the big white barn things are going to get much worse.
You are contemptible at psychology as stated and as stated my suggestion to you is for you to not try it on anyone. Not ever. Nah. I l know you will not taketh myeh adviceth. You say that you never made such a claim that you were good or bad at psychology" but your subconscious most certainly did.

"You keep making claim that free will precludes belief in God and provided no evidence of such." Oh I most 100% certainly did. I provided you with 4 videos. I provided you with expert testimony. I provided you with good VS evil. I provided you with the value of the hate winning (should it come to that) and the value of it which it always, no exceptions, none, greater than the value of those that suffer, especially children. I provided you with showing you how free will is suffocated if forced upon you etc etc etc

am out of space
Debate Round No. 4
snowtigerspeaks

Pro

This debate has nothing to do with the scripture itself. It is intended to be about how Christians actually interact in the world. People can say what every they think about what they believe but what matters to me is how they actually behave. To me that is more telling of belief than anything else. People in U.S. that are christians do not believe in salvery because they don't practice it and very much against the culture of the rest of the world they abolished it. So thank you for making that point clear.

Life is filled with pain, suffering, misery, pure evil and pure good, joy, happiness, love, and values, I noticed how you left half of that list off and the bible reflects life. It would not be very good if it only had the happy things in life it would make all christains very niavete if that were the case but it is not the case. Hence why Christains try to do good in society.

You say that like much of the inca's, mayan's and other native americans were not already at war. They were not peace loving culture very few of them were. I can only think of 1 peaceful tribe of Indians. But nations like the Soux were warrior tribes and they put up one heck of a fight against the Americans. The mayans and I believe incans also committed ritual sacrifice of virgins and played soccer with the heads of their eneymies. Most of them got wiped out because they had not built up any immunity to deasies that the settlers lived with. Do you really want to credit Christians with being that intelligent that they knew they would die but giving them blankets? With that point, shouldn't you just absolutely love that since it is darwen's principle at work? the stronger more adaptable countries infected the weaker nations and almost killed them off?

What does a hurrican have to do with how christians as a whole people group behave? or Famines in Africa? nothing. Christians are among the groups of people that collect canned goods at thanksgiving and christmas and ship rice and other foods over seas trying to be good although someimes it is overdone like in hati where they need to stop sending rice. It is now hurting the agriculture. We would be smarter to send seeds and help revitilize their agriculture as opposed to sending the end product only.

You cant say you haven't argued that Me a non-pyschology disciplined individual is not good at pyschology now. You have done it twice in this debate. Again I literrally took 1 psychology class freshman year. I do not claim to be profiecient at psychology. Do you mean anthropology becasue that is the study of societies and that is the central theme of this topic? and No I didn't even take 1 anthropology class.

How can you know what my subconscious is doing? it is sub-conscious meaning I don't even know what it is doing becasue it is not conscious? are you claiming to have magical powers?

You do not care about children, women, rape, or the rest. You say you care but the reality is your belief does not match your actions. Most christains will back up there actions becasue it is one of their jobs to help care for women, children, and victums of all sorts and they do that.

you can't have good without evil. you cant' even define suffering is there is not something nuetral or positive to compare it to so the fact that you point to one and ignore the other just shows you have a terribly narrow viewpoint and you must broaden your scope to have a more well rounded approach.

Force is used to refrence pyshical action or movement, and coercion
how is a being saying you are free to chose amoung a varity of options coercion? or pyshical action?
if anything it shows that the lack of free will would have to be forced because you do not have choice you simply have the chemical and physical reaction to stimuli in the environment.



backwardseden

Con

"This debate has nothing to do with the scripture itself." OK we're done. It absolutely does. You cannot even talk about, nor prove one god damned thing about YOUR god without scripture. I'm not going to further take up my valued time and bite into your pathetic moronic stupidity and arrogance. Bye.
Debate Round No. 5
86 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by snowtigerspeaks 2 months ago
snowtigerspeaks
funny how in RD 5 you invoke an all powerful being so that can you can have a more powerful curse when trying to convince everyone else that you don't believe in an evil all powerful being. 1. if you thought God didn't exist then why invoke his power or authority? 2. If you think God is evil then why would you want God to support your argument that God doesn't exist.
Posted by backwardseden 2 months ago
backwardseden
OK so by your ruling and according to you, then your god MUST be killed. And the way to kill your god since he offers only hate, evil, anger, wrath, vengeance, rage, fury, jealousy which is imperfection and what idiot would ---ever--- want to worship that malfunctioning bathroom bile problem in the first place with all those faults, is to offer this supposed supreme deity in which nobody can even prove exists, NO FAITH? Your god has been proved to be the most selfish egotistical unloving contrivance of the human imagination that has ever existed. I"ve posted this once. I will post this again. In no way shape or form can you fault it".
"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully. Those of us schooled from infancy in his ways can become desensitized to their horror." Richard Dawkins

Strike 3 you're out!!!
Posted by backwardseden 2 months ago
backwardseden
"As the definition of Love, and the said God being required to have that as its purpose. I would argue that God may even BE Love." Well then you would argue falsely. And you have no evidence to support your ridiculous dimwitted dullard snot meat sow claims. Nothing. Is killing evil? Y____? N____? Is slavery evil? Y____? N____? Is rape evil? Y____? N____? Is hating gays and wanting to kill them evil and should you die if you are gay? Y____? N____? Is deliberate genocide evil? Y____? N____? Is hating children evil? Y____? N____? Is going against god evil? Y____? N____? Which is worse" going against god or killing five 6 year old children, chopping them up, eating them, and torturing them? Why its going against your god according to your bible. Is worshiping other god"s evil? Y____? N____? Why? Why Not? Is cursing at your parents evil and should you die for it? Y____? N____? Why? Why Not? Is working on the sabbath evil and should you die if you work on the sabbath? Y____? N____? Why? Why Not? Etc etc etc All of these your god has freely admitted to and participated in. Now you look it up if you don"t believe me. Your god is pure hate and immoral. If you think they are perfectly OK, then you are as immoral as your god. Period. So no fuzzy pink slippers for you.
There is no love within you god. NONE. But in truth I hope you find it, somewhere, anywhere within your bible. That"s because then your bible would be one super massive hypocritical contradiction. And YOUR bible is litter boxed with thousands of supermassive hypocritical contradictions and would prove that your bible is truly even more unreadable than it already is.

"If Love and Selfishness cannot co-exist. Then obviously the Selfishness must be removed. So that Love can continue to exist. Therefore those who are wicked must be pushed away, however that may be interpreted. Killing may even be the only solution."
Posted by backwardseden 2 months ago
backwardseden
NO ONE can prove FAITH. Wow. You must think you are smarter than creationists. Creationists will NEVER put your god on trial again until YOUR god reveals himself which will never happen because your god does not exist because all creationists have to go on is faith which is unproved and is intangible. Do you really think that creationists are as stupid as you? Of course not. There"s no way they are going to put your god on trial again with something as intangible as faith. Now if you mention this again, we"re done.

Happy? You can"t even prove that YOUR god in his bible was ever "happy". Are you serious? Happy is an emotion. It has nothing, 0 zip, nada to do with what you are sadly making the attempt to describe.

"So in the case of a God, the purpose that not only it had, but created others for, would be to Love." And yet you can"t prove it because at no time in the bible did god ---ever--- mention he was "happy". Try harder.

"As such, this God would Love its creations but also expect its creations to Love it back. As that is the purpose of all things." Including rocks, whales, bacteria, microbes, smallpox, the bubonic plague, earthquakes, cancer, pain, suffering, box jellyfish, the jolly green giant? There"s no way you are in college with passing grades.

"So we have already established that A God would be required to be loving." no "we" haven"t you still have yet to prove that your god even exists much less is loving. And a god doesn"t have to be loving at all. What do you call satan you simplistic moron? Again, there"s no way you are in college with passing grades.

You also simply don't get that your mind is far too small to accept that fact that I'm not going to agree with anything you have to say just for the mere sake of agreeing with an imbecile like you who cannot prove one god damned thing. After all you have, as previously stated, you've provided no evidence. I after all do know what I am talking about, whereas you guess and invent excuse
Posted by backwardseden 2 months ago
backwardseden
Vick "Youtube, books, Amazon"" CLICK. Russell "Get the F(*$u#@u^"*c@!k out of here. Yeah. All these ancient books didn"t have the right idea about god, but some dude on youtube has SEEN THE LIGHT!!!!!!!

"Since it is logical and rational to believe that A God does exist," Really? According to what imbecile? You? How would you know? What grade of cheapened chocolate chip compate Keebler elf companies have you graduated from to make such a gesture? No it isn"t logical at all. As stated before you apply no thinking, reasoning, rationalizing, common sense nor logic because none is required within your god, religion and bible. You probably didn"t know it, but in a way, you did a roundabout plagiarization of what I said. That"s a flat out excuse for something in which you clearly know nothing about and it is an invented excuse in an attempt to prevent your sunken ship from sinking. Strike 1.
"Atheism is a response to a single claim, that some god exists. We don"t believe that"s true so we"re atheists. And that"s all it means." Jen peeples

"So what is the purpose behind creation?" Who ever said anything has to be created? Strike 2.
https://www.youtube.com... - How did Life Come About?
https://www.youtube.com... - How Atheist Became a Theist & Prophecy
"Well many people say Purpose is subjective," Who ever said people have to have purpose? What good is purpose without motivation and experience?
"- It has to be something you can at any point of your life." Experience.
"- It cannot end while you are still alive," Well why not? You are the one who claims that there"s a heaven. So I should call that one strike 3 due to your own folly. But nah because according to you, you just proved that you cannot possibly ---ever--- improve upon yourself once you reach heaven.

"So with those basic logical rules we can see that meaning has to be something intangible." There are no basic logical rules that can be applied to faith.
Posted by backwardseden 2 months ago
backwardseden
Don "Yeah that"s pretty awesome." Russell "Where"d that come from?" Vick "You"re not hearing me. I"m not the only one. You can be sure of that" Russell "But like how many people have the right belief. Like is it 1% of humanity?" Vick "I have no fricken idea. Nor do I care. I don"t wanna clump with them if I happen to find them.Clumping is going to get these people into trouble.You know you don"t clump together. The boy scouts in the wilderness don"t put all their flashlights in a bigger pile so you have a bigger light called a steeple. Its not about clumping." Vicks voice gets drowned out. Russell "K so I get it, you didn"t get your information from other people or books. Where"d you get it?" Vick "Why are you so hung up on source here?" Russell "Because I think you"re full of crapola to I"m just gonna say." Vick "Look at how religion has raped the earth. Russell "Yeah." Vick "Look at the problems in the world today." Russell "There are a lot of problems." Vick "It spawns unbelief by design because it has (southern priest accent) SKRewed up from the get go. You know here it is. The messiah did not come up to the earth to create a god damned religion. Now here me out when I say this"" Russell interrupting "How do you know?" Vick "I"m talking english. He came to this earth to create a god blessed invisible kingdom and revealed that kingdom to people who would listen to him." Russell "How-do-you-know?" Vick "The problem is mankind... "Russell interrupting "Alright you are not having a conversation with me you are just doing a preacher thing and I"m not going to stand for it. Are you going to answer my question or not?" Vick "Answer it again and I"ll give you an answer." Russell "How do you know a messiah came to earth and how do you know what he wanted? Where"d you get that information" Vick "I"m a researcher. I"m a"" Russell "What did you" What sources did you use to research this novel information?" Vick "OK are you ready?" Russell "Uh huh"
Posted by backwardseden 2 months ago
backwardseden
Let"s get crystal clear here" its is always up to you, no exceptions, none, for you to prove your god. And that is something that you cannot do. After all no one has come close to doing as such. Oh I get it, you must think you are better than everybody else - right? That you have some insight that EVERYBODY who has ever lived does not - correct?
Now I have presented you with plenty of evidence. You have presented me with NOTHING. No scriptures. No verses. No chapters. NOTHING. So I am going to use a strike 3 rule. If you invent 3 excuses I will end this because my time is far too valued to deal with flunkies that cannot present any evidence to support their cases. Its exactly why you have no genuine friends or loved ones. And if you do that form of strategic maneuver, I 100% you will fail every single subject you take.
Now let"s start off with a phone conversation that you nor any christian can overcome"
Don Baker and Russell Glasser. Russell from the atheist experience answering a call from Vick "But your god belief happens to be the right one, despite all these blind people who follow all these various religions, somehow out of all these different belief systems you"ve happen to land on the one that most people didn't see.Is that it?" Don Baker "So instead of telling us what you believe, tell us WHY you believe it? Why do you have the magic that everybody else lacks?" Vick "Well I wouldn"t say everybody else. There"s always a remnant." Russell "A handful. You"re one of the chosen few I guess." Vick "Well ultimately I guess you could say chosen. But its not anything I"ve done to make myself worthy. Its not a free will its a free (spells it) W-H-E-E-L. If you went down to the earth against the earth against the clay and plops somethin on his spinning wheel and makes someth" out of it .You don"t have a choice in the matter. "Russell "Its pretty lucky that with all the clueless people in the world you happen to be the one who knows the truth about god"
Posted by backwardseden 2 months ago
backwardseden
2 Kings 2:23-24 "And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
You would think that God could understand that sometimes the youthful make childish jokes. Calling someone "bald head" is far from being worthy of death. (evilbible)

Leviticus 26:29 "And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat." Yummy child cannibalism.

Leviticus 26:21-22 "And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins. 22 I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate." Rob you of your children?

1 Samuel 15:3 "3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling , ox and sheep, camel and a$$."

Hosea 13:16 "Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up." Wow. Such a nice gentle caring god. This book should clearly be read to children - correct?

Now what was covered in these verses? Clearly child abuse of the highest magnitude (though not neglect nor to be ignored), rape and your god loving it, happy to kill little ones, cannibalism of children, plagues, slayings, severe animal abuse that is found in far too many verses of YOUR bible, abortions - the ripping open of a woman's innards? WHAT? Your bible is a truly sick and perverse book that NOBODY should be allowed to read.
Posted by backwardseden 2 months ago
backwardseden
@Stonehe4rt Let's start with only a few of your bibles verses to thus prove that your god has nothing but hate and is the absolute furthest from love by showing just how much he cares for children. Now if theses very few verses do not convince you that something is seriously wrong here, then something is seriously wrong with you.
2 Samuel 12:11-14 11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. 12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun. 13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. From evilbible.com [The child dies seven days later.] This has got to be one of the sickest quotes of the Bible. God himself brings the completely innocent rape victims to the rapist. What kind of pathetic loser would do something so evil? And then he kills a child! This is sick, really sick!

Deuteronomy 2:34 "And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain:"

Numbers 31:17-18 "17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. 18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

Psalms 137:8-9 Prayer/song of vengeance "0 daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones."
Posted by Stonehe4rt 2 months ago
Stonehe4rt
Oh one last thing, my bad.

Homosexuality, specifically Male Homosexuality is seen as an abomination as you have stated. Why? Anal. Sodomy. Sexual intercourse between two men physically harms Both of them. To Sodomize is wrong, regardless who it is on, that verse about a man lying with a man is also about Sodomy. Sure if two guys said they loved each other and hung out, lived together, ect... Sure, go ahead, that is just two super friendly guys. But when Sodomy comes into the picture, sexual intercourse between the men, IT DOES CAUSE HARM. Not only does it physically harm their flesh, but can also lead to disease.

Why is it also wrong for men to be cross-dressing? Because it portrays themselves as sexually in a female manner. In a sense, it implies Sodomy.

I already know my views are highly different from most Christians, however I have searched in the Bible and it does not condemn Lesbianism. While there is a verse stating:

"Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."

I believe this is referring to women sodomizing themselves or others. In fact it could even be referring to Transvestites. Attempting to change their gender.

So is Homosexuality a Sin? Loving the same sex? No, love everyone. Two men having intercourse? Yes. Because it is harmful, and unnatural. The body is not meant for that.

Yes thousands of Christians would most likely disagree with me, but as you said 80% don't read the bible. I would like to consider myself in the 20% that do. While you can try to discredit my words by my age and claiming I am in high school, I truly am in College. I would give you physical proof of either side of this debate if there was any. But we only have Lo
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by dsjpk5 2 months ago
dsjpk5
snowtigerspeaksbackwardsedenTied
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Total points awarded:10 
Reasons for voting decision: Con called Pro "pathetic", "moronic" and stupid in the last round. This is poor conduct.