Debate Rounds (3)
why is it so hard to logically understand it foundational principles?
I was a christian for many years. I wanted to know the truth. I prayed
and studied and searched and I was never able to figure it out. You
would think that after 10 plus years I would understand even the basics.
I know christianity very well so if you are going to debate me then you
need to have a considerate amount of knowledge and familiarity with
the first century culture and also be open minded. Most christians are
so full of fear to look deeper which reminds me of tyranny.
Here is a list of my questions:
-What is sin?
If there is a higher being that has rules and breaking those laws has
consequences then what are those laws, how many are there, where
do we find those laws and how do we verify that those laws are truly
What specific law from the question above did I commit that requires
me to burn in hell forever and ever?
-If Jesus died for our sins then why did he die on passover and not day of
-What are we saved from?
-If your child was crying for help while being ripped apart by lions and you
had the ability to stop it, would you?
There are and have been many people in this world who are/were dedicated
people who have gone through horrible and difficult things and they have cried
for help and all they got was silence. If you acted that way towards another
human being especially your children people would say you were cold, mean,
uncaring and maybe even charge you with a crime but God who is supposed
to be an example of a loving father can do it and it is ok and nobody ever
I think this is a good starting point.
Disclosure: I will give you a good debate on this topic, because I am not a christian- which lends odds to me knowing a little about its doctrine and history. Why am I arguing pro? Because first, it's important to second guess one's self. Second, due to the mental affect christianity has on its followers, sophistry is the best we can expect from them, after all, they prefered illiteracy and the sword filled in all the blanks. And a dozen or so centuries of all killing, no listening, well let's just say they don't really get debate, as it would require individuality and opinions and thinking to be okay.
Now you said you commited a law, I'll assume this means you're multi-tasking and cleverly invented a way to say 'broke a law' and 'commited a sin', with one phrase 'commited a law'. Seriously, I like it, it's like a conjuntion sentence. I would assume you refer to the only law it has-the unforgiveable sin, the only one that leads to 'forever and ever' legitimately from a theocratic point of view. In other words, that's what the bible says (Matt, Mark and Luke) , and it is to blaspheme the holy spirit. I suppose you did it implicitly as you clearly reject Jesus-yoiu know he died for your sins right? My question to you is why does he get any credit-I mean, he was runnin' and hidin' and all cowardly. He wasn't trying to save anyone and we can't very well give him credit for getting CAUGHT when he didn't want to be caught. I mean, once he's nailed up there=whatever happens cannot really give credit to the helpless dude talking shop with the other felons....
In reality, Judas=yes, Judas it the one to thank, it's his action that saved those christians from that dumb woman and her blood curse. Back to the point: EvEn though jesus character was even a fraud in the character ( he came here with one purpose< and takes 30 yeaRS to finally step up to the plate and then runs back to the dugout???? We'd already beeen waiting 4000 years for this perfect god to fix his perfect curse on his perfect creations for not believing his lie and falling for his entrapment, man 30 more years and then he still screws around avoiding his destiny and trying to do so the entire time until caught-how is that even a guy to look up to by the way lol). Anyway, christianity is the easiest reliigion in history to practice-take jesus as your god and savyour and sit down for the rest of your life, it's not that important anyway as there's only one deciision-god or no god, which is what christians mean when they say 'free will' they mean one, closed ended question under duress no less as one answer carries my opponents' 'forever and ever' threat of some sort.
So either way they claim jesus died for YOUR sins ( see, it's at the heart of christian culture to think oneself done and then go about fixing others to quit thinking and pass the buck like a good christian does! So if he died for all your sins, and only one exception exists, via 3 of the 4 gospels (john is quiet) clearly all the rest are forgiveable. And note my advanced skills and shiver: i just used christian reasoning without contradicting everything_that"s a hat trick my friend. And this is objective since our only source on this stuff is one awful hideous library of books called "the bible". So, essentially he can save you from anything, except himself, if he's attacking you which he will if you didn"t follow his one real rule_he doesnt want peace on earth< his one rule does nothing for people< its actually a very selfish rule_to respect his mad skills< to bow down to him or thor or those awful female gods_such a notion! the rest he doesn"t care about< including and especailly the golden "rule" which is an obvious deception_as it"s clearly a suggestion with no reward nor punishment>>>>>>> THATS WHY NONE OF THEM DO IT>
looking for a challenge and you presented more of a frustration about the idea then I have.
You corrected me at the beginning about not being more specific but it looks like to me you
were all over the place and I never could figure out what you were trying to say other than
I hate this subject and would like to eradicate it. That I can agree with you on. I hate what it
has produced but I try to be a little more civil.
Let me debate myself for a minute and answer my own questions.
First lets look at the universe. If you took human beings out of it all and everything else was
left there would be harmony. The main reason there is all these problems is because people
are dysfunctional. Why are they dysfunctional? Because of what they believe. What does most
of the world believe that causes them to be dysfunctional? Guess? Ideas of ancient cultures
who were trying to figure out what this is all about.
My questions focus on christianity because that is what I am familiar with and those ideas
affect alot of the population of the world.
Should we care for people? Yes. Should we murder? No. Do we need a book telling us to do or
not to do? I think we can figure out things on our own.
What is sin? Who knows. It is what someones culture says is wrong. A lion that was created by
God rips a dear apart and we admire lions. Interesting? What would happen if you did that?
Would someone admire you?
If the sins that would send me to hell are in the old testament then which one is it and if you
are following the old testament then you should probably follow everything in it.
What am I being saved from? Never could figure that out and most christians don't know.
One says your saved from your sins another says you are saved from yourself another
says you are saved from the wrath of God another says you are saved from the evil generation.
If I was studying for 25 years on how to build tables do you think I would be an expert by then
and there wouldn't be too much disagreement. The bible has been around for how long and
christianity has been around for how long and most people don't understand the basics and
there is so much disagreement. That in itself should tell you something.
I do need to say I respect the maker of the universe and if he did have a son I would respect
him also. I care for people and I care for myself and am tired of what religion and specifically
christianity has produced in my life. I would never want to discourage anyone from searching
for truth and from wanting to know more about the maker. I think it is important for all people
to examine these ideas and make a decision for themself and in the meantime stand up
for what they believe.
The logic bell is ringing. Your up :)
First, let's start with your assumptive statement hidden in one showing perhaps a tinge of Deism? Regardless I must call you out-you cannot slip a creator past me as though it's a given. How is it a given? Why must the Universe need a Creator at all? Why must there be a beginning to life itself? We see every manifestation of life, from micro-organisms to Universes has a beginning and an end, a birth and a death. Birth and death can be assumed, we all experience them, both first hand and second hand-so that's a reasonable assumptive statement that shouldn't require verification. However, the assumption of a creator has no basis at all outside your backward stoneage myths due to ignorance. They thought thunder was the anger of the head god, Yahweh. Others thought Poseiden would cause Hurricanes. And Atlas held up the sky on his shoulders.... They thought the world was flat, held up by pillars, others thought held up by turtles.... And the stars were just holes in the curtain of night, shining the light of heaven through..... and even today christians look up when praying to their god aloud.... yet that makes no sense-since there is no up. Hell is trickier-it still has to be below, and with seismology and spectroscopy and other sciences, well we know there's no hell down there....
With all that in mind, I don't think there is a religion with a creator that hasn't been proven false in enough ways to discount all of it. All evidence points to infinity, a never ending cycle of life.... that whatever we think is large is really small compared to something else... endlessly both directs (small and big). The moment we get complacent thinking we got to the end of knowledge, we find more-sub atomic particles or now they are trying to prove Multiverses..... Again, all this points to no creator-no beginning, and no end of life itself... just cycles of birth and death.
The argument for a creator usually goes like this, like yours, my favorite to capture it most simply is, "Just look at all this stuff!" As though stuff proves a creator. The underlying argument is of course-everything needs a creator. But the argument thereby disproves itself as everything would include the creator and we find then a complication that contradicts the claim- IF the universe needs a creator, then so does the creator, which suddenly makes the position of creator seem perfectly illlogical as no creator could exist by its own accord under this law of creator necessity becomes a silly claim no matter what. Endless creators or none are then the only logical outcomes and one of them is silly and one is not.
Next you assert a few claims that seem rooted in chrsitianity. Like the inherent claim that murder is 'wrong' and that helping others is 'good'. I disagree with the first and call 'lacking foundation' on the 2nd. First, no action has a value by its own accord-it is NOT wrong or bad to kill. Actually, sometimes murder is the only moral thing to do. What matters is not what you do, but what motivated you to do it. If it is that which causes the least harm it's likely the right thing to do in any situation even if 'it' is murder. Second, I agree it's good to help people but I must assert that you don't know why. Nor does the bible-it never explains why. As a matter of fact-in the entire book, nearly 2000 pages I believe, not once does it tell you a reward or punishment for practicing the 2nd commanment, ie 'golden rule' which again is not a rule without said punishment or reward and without nothing at all to motivate its use-what do you know, christians rarely ever do it.
So I now would challenge you to reflect on your assumptions and question them-starting with your assumption of a creator as necessity-please explain that claim, you know with logic and junk. And also to question if there are moral absolutes? Not just because culture dictates so much-but rather because there do appear to be certain universal truths.
For example, any claim that puts control of one's life outside one's control is just fatalism. This is true with any all powerful god-one is simply shifting their burden of life onto the ether or god or something else... ie avoiding responsibility. This is true of many atheists too, but only if what they believe does the same thing-that is, leads to fatalism. For example, the current trend in quantum physics is 'pre-determinism' which is basically intelligent design without a creator if you ask me. Whatever it is, it asserts we have no control, our dna drives us to do every little single thing we do-meaning we are helpless, see, again fatalism.
I would make the claim that any belief that leads to fatalism, which is almost all of them-is immoral. The only moral philosophy is one that puts you in the role of responsibility for your whole world. And world here is infinite, it means your reality, not Earth. The bigger your life, the more things in it you see as yours to shape and improve. I only know of one such philosophy and it has no gods or any other outside forces, and no other entity or thing to blame for misfortune nor to credit for fortune. Christianity is the most immoral philosophy in history precisely because it avoids responsiblity the most of any and worse-spends its time trying to get others to sit down and pass the buck too.
When someone comes on the scene with tact, humor, sarcasim, irresistable in your face
information and passion then the force shakes the room. That is my last weapon in this debate
so hang on I hope to see you in round 3. If not it has been nice debating and maybe we will meet
What is God? What is all of this? Where did it come from? Why do I think? Where do thoughts
originate? What are dreams? How did this complex reality begin and why does it work so
Different people at different times have had these questions? Many believed they figured some
if not all of these answers. My answer to all of these is noone will ever know. We can put 2 and
2 together to better understand what is in our reality and that is the closest we will ever get and
in the end will it even matter? If more people would come to this conclusion we could all stop
arguing so much and we could all have more of an enjoyable life. That is what draws people.
Does it feel good.
We can learn alot from animals and babies. Animals live, they rarely talk, they don't make fun
of each other for the stupid things we do, they are selfish, they let themselves be themselves.
They are truly free inside. Babies are similar. They let themselves look at a person deep. They
let themselves process without rushing, They let themselves feel and express exactly what they
feel. And the best of all either one is not trying on purpose to do it nor are they probably aware
that it is even wrong or right. What freedom.
Christianity is just one of the beliefs that control someone and not let them enjoy their life. It robs
them of real true enjoyment. Real true freedom inside.
How this all became I am not sure. It makes more logical sense to believe that something originated
it. I am not saying that it is a person or a force or a being because I don't know.
At this point the idea of christianity is alive and it isn't going away any time soon but for me lets put it too
Here are some ideas that should make any christian with an open mind think.
1.) How do we know that the original source that we get the bible from was written by someone who was
not a liar and who was not just making up a story?
2.)Is there any eye witnesses from the garden of eden alive today so we can question them to confirm that
there was a garden and that the events there happened?
3.)Why do we not see similar miraclous events that happened in bible happening today?
4.)The laws in the old testament or torah have a specific part where it says if a virgin is raped in the
country the man is not to be killed and should marry her? Also there was a time when God commanded
that they go into a city and kill babies. Does that change your mind about the writer of the old testament?
Or is it still a book that you cherish?
5.)Why is there condradictions about Jesus' life?
6.)Why is it that I dedicated myself to God. Became a christian. Tithed, fasted, prayed, street preached,
read the bible more than most, was willing to be rejected by people for the cause of God. After all this
I ask this God for a simple request and you know what I got. Silence. I am sure the starving kids in africa
who pray and the little kids who are being neglected medical attention because of their parents religious
beliefs would say the same.
Why is there silence. Tell that to the baby deer who is being stalked and killed with no mercy and where
is the saviour at that point.
Do you want to serve a God like that? Be honest. Most of you know exactly what I am talking about.
Christians. It is time that you wake up and really examine your beliefs. They are rooted in your terms
paganism, mithraism, kabalism and more.
If I had an opportunity I would make a law that punished people for psycological abuse and christianity
would be at the top to scrutize. I am sure in the future it will be here so you better be sure you are right.
Brendan_Liam forfeited this round.
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