The Instigator
Christian_Debater
Pro (for)
Winning
3 Points
The Contender
Sam-sinha
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Christianity

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Post Voting Period
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after 1 vote the winner is...
Christian_Debater
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/19/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 912 times Debate No: 52920
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (24)
Votes (1)

 

Christian_Debater

Pro

I am a Christian obviously. Anyone that has problems with Christianity, lets go through all of this. Any criticisms or debates against it, I will gladly accept.

Also, I would like to disclose I do not participate in a specific denomination [Calvinism, Catholicism, etc.], I just read the Bible and follow what GOD told us to do.

With that out of the way, have fun and GOD bless you.

- David
Sam-sinha

Con

I accept. I have serious problems with most of the religions and the religious texts. Christianity is no exception in that case. Well, as long as there is logic behind what someone says, it does not really matter whether she is extremely well-informed about a particular topic or not. That is my goal, to say what I say with logical reasoning.

My problems with Christianity lies within The Bible.

1) God, who can do everything:

But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” (Mathew 19:26),
Jesus looked at them and said, “With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God.” (Mark 10:27)

God can do everyhing. Really? Why does he let the religious fanatics kill a gargantuan number of people? Why does not he stop the warmongers and reduce their belligerence? If God can really do things things that are ostensibly impossible (at least for human), he could have easily stopped the egregious game of genocide called 'War'. But he did not? Why?

a) Is he unable to stop all those? If so, then why the Bible claims that he can do all things?

b) If he has the power to do it, but still won't, then the quetion is, "Why?" If you say that the sufferings are because of our sins, or, the God is testing us, then I will still have a problem. Why is the God testing us, or, letting us suffer for our sins? The answer must be that he wants the human civilization to be good or stable or moral. Right?

But why? If he can do everything, he can make human civilization moral and good, in a wink of eyes. That is what the Bible indicates.

c) Does the God not love the sufferers? Is he letting them suffer intentionally? But how can that happen?

So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. (John 4:8)

I am in a fix. Really! Why? See this!

But to God the wicked and his wickedness are hateful alike. (Wisdom 14:9)

No comments!

2) Morality:

Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery. (Luke 16:18)

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. (Mark 16:16)

[How is your 'God' going to judge me? I do not believe that there is anyone called God at all. Am an Atheist.]

Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. (Jude 1:5) Oh! Hoe moral and 'loving'!

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them. (John 3:36)


3) Misogyny? :

(as it is written in the Law of the Lord, “Every firstborn male is to be consecrated to the Lord”) (Luke 2:23)
What about females, eh?

But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Looking forward to your reply. Thank you. I'm sleepy, so could not write more now. Would definitely try to put more throughout the debate. I have a lot to say. I have some questions, too.

a) Does Christianity support the view that God has a body?
b) Does Christianity permit you to have close relations with atheists? mean, can you marry them without infuriating your God?
c) If I do not believe in Jesus, will I get punished? What does Christianity say?
d) Does Christianity finds it vigorously punishable to indulge in sexual immorality and doing 'bad' things like telling lies?



You talked about the Bible. So I quoted my problems from there. And, do not ask your 'God' to bless me. If you really wanted to do me a favour, you could have brought me a pizza. Thank you.
Debate Round No. 1
Christian_Debater

Pro

Before I answer, there is a few things I need to refer to as I go. To start off:
1) GOD can read minds [Genesis 18:10-14]
2) GOD knows everything you are already going to do, regardless of the circumstances [Romans 8:29-30]. Basically, he can calculate the choices you will make.

Lastly, I would like to add that Jesus himself is God, it says so in the Bible. I might need to refer to that again later, so I'll just put that here now. If you disagree, I'll supply more Bible quotes.

Secondly, I'd like to add that I do not think that other religions are "fake". They are real, they are worshipping real entities, but they aren't GOD. If you read the Old Testament, it has countless references to demons that the enemies of Israel worship, such as: baal, dagon, moloch, astaroth, etc. There are tons.

1)
a) Of Course he is able to stop them.
b) GOD loves us, that's why. Let me try to explain [I'm running out of characters, less than 500 now]. You can cite the Old Testament especially most of the book of Judges on Israel being punished for their sins. However, in addition, you have to remember people have free will. Also, remember Romans 8:29-30. You can deduct that:
1) They were going to heaven anyways if they were murdered, etc.
2) It didn't matter because regardless they would never enter Heaven.
I want to expand on this further in my next reply but for now just remember - forced love is rape.
c) Refer to b I am out of characters. I did #1 last. I will expand on more of this in round 2.

2)
[Luke 16:18] I don't see your problem here.

[Mark 16:16] I don't see your problem here either. You said your arguments got cut off in the comments, I think this is where it was as well as the previous quote.

[Jude 1:5] What's the difference between this quote and them being sent to hell in the first place? In addition, read this:

Romans 12:17-21
King James Version (KJV)
17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

What this is saying is that GOD will do all the work, we don't need to worry about going after punishments, etc. Same can be said about the people of egypt. Then again, GOD smited other people in the past such as Onan.

[John 3:36] Okay, I am running out of Characters now. So to keep things short, life means getting into Heaven basically. As for the wrath, let me quote scripture:

Revelation 15:7-8
King James Version (KJV)
7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

Also, Read Revelation 16: 1-18 for more information. I just deleted some room but I now only have 600 characters left.

3)
[Luke 2:23] - For your quote on Luke 2:23 and citing it as Mysogyny, you are taking the quote out of context. Let me quote Luke 2:21-23:

Luke 2:21-23
King James Version (KJV)
21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.
22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;
23 (As it is written in the law of the LORD, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord;)

So the reason it says male, is because Jesus himself was a male.

[1 Corinthians 11:3 (It's what you quoted, you can double-check if you don't believe me)] This just says that men are responsible and the leader. It is saying it is the husband's job to lead. Therefore, if the wife is doing something sinful, and he does not try his best to correct her, in a way it is his fault for not trying to inform her it is bad. In addition, Christ is the leader. He is who's rules we obey. Does this mean the men can boss the women around and control them? Well, read these verses and they'll answer your questions:

Colossians 3:19
King James Version (KJV)
19 Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.

Ephesians 5:25-29
King James Version (KJV)
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

Especially in Ephesians 5:25, it talks about how men should die to protect their wives.

a) Depends
b) No. Infruriating GOD? Well, that I am not 100% sure of the consequences because I have not researched deeply into that, but here are a few verses for ya:

Amos 3:3-4
King James Version (KJV)
3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?
4 Will a lion roar in the forest, when he hath no prey? will a young lion cry out of his den, if he have taken nothing?

Basically it is saying, if you don"t agree [both Christians or both Atheists] how can you walk together or be friends?

2 Corinthians 6:14
King James Version (KJV)
14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

That right there is saying more specific. I hope that answers your question.

c) Well this should be pretty obvious. I used to be an atheist when I was younger and even I knew the answer [makes me think you have a strategy lol]. If you don"t believe in Jesus you will go to hell. However, that doesn"t mean people who believe in Jesus won"t go to hell too. [if you want more info on that, let me know. It isn"t related to the topic am but I can post it for you]

d) Vigorously Punishable? Well, I'll let this answer for you:

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
King James Version (KJV)

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Some will translate it to be sexually immoral but to be honest, that is just a very over-simplified definition. You'll find that in most NIV translations. but the NIV just rechanges the whole meaning of the Bible in some spots so I wouldn't trust it (or most new Bibles anyways).

Pertaining to lies:

Revelation 21:8
King James Version (KJV)

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

So I just want to say something. Nobody is perfect and follows all rules, "everyone falls short to the glory of GOD" [Romans 3:23] but it doesn't give you excuse to sin. It also means that these things can send you to hell.

Lastly, I want to say there were parts I didn't get to completely talk about because of the lack of characters, mainly question #1. I hope we can address them in round 2.

Oh, and sorry I didn't mean to offend you. I would just take it as a compliment or something positive.
Sam-sinha

Con

Before I reply to the rest of the things, I want to ask you something. Is there any tangible evidence that supports the claim that the Bible describes everything real? The Bible is the heart of Christianity, right? What is the evidence that the stories of Jesus curing others not just stories? Why should I believe them? Just because a vast majority of faithheads, by and large, believe in that? Do you think that Superman exists in reality? Because, the comic-books say so? This is the biggest problem I have with Christianity.

Another thing. What is the law of God? Love or Cruelty? Or both?

Leaving these things apart, I will focus on the Bible and point out the other problems I have.

1. God knows everything, right? Then why is he testing us?

you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. [Deuteronomy 13:3]

Why?

And you shall remember that the Lord your God led you all the way these forty years in the wilderness, to humble you and test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not. [Deuteronomy 8:2]

Note that. He wants to 'know'. How can he want 'to know what was in your heart' ? Did not he know already?

However, regarding the ambassadors of the princes of Babylon, whom they sent to him to inquire about the wonder that was done in the land, God withdrew from him, in order to test him, that He might know all that was in his heart. [2 Chronicles 32:31]

Funny, is not it? If he really knows what we are going to do, why does he do it 'in order to test'?


2. Who is the Real God?

Can you prove that your God is the real God? If you are disproving the 'Gods' of other religions, what is the basis? If you say because you believe in the Bible, it does not make any sense. You first have to prove that the Bible is describing real events. And if you can, please tell me why you are disproving Zeus, Vishnu, Nommo, Virakocha, Kukulkaan and Brahma as 'Gods'.

3. God's Love

I must appreciate the way you dodged away the question. I am asking that again. Why is GOD testing us or letting bad things happen? Does he want a good society? If so, he can do it in a wink of eyes (if he really intends to do so, to ensure the existence of a good society), why is he not doing that?

The 'hell and heaven' logic is, however, a very good way to oppress people. The reactionaries have been using this concept since a thousand aeons. Even in Hinduism. In lieu dodging away, just answer me. Why is he letting the innocents suffer? Heaven is reserved for them? Good joke. Say that to a starved child. For now, answer me here.


4. [I will explain the part that got cut off in the latter rounds.]

5. Yes you may find occasional good lines about woman. But, only that?

Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female. (Genesis 7:2)

Why? 'His' female? Why? Is a female a property of the male counterpart? [Gender bias and patriarchy unleashed.] I do not know whether you will agree or not. But I say clearly : If woman is considered a property of the male counterpart, that is a colossal example of Misogyny. YES, IT IS MISOGYNISTIC.

I will mention more about this in the latter rounds.


Now, regarding my questions :

6. DEPENDS? Why? Cannot you clearly say what your religions thinks about it? Answer clearly. I question it again.

7. 'NO'.
That is a great answer. That means Christianity does not make a bridge between humans. It does not help them to be united. If you are not permitted to have close-relation with a man of different view-point, I am happy that I diagree with your religion. It does not unite man. It creates division.

I have plenty of good friends, who are theists. I do not subscribe to their school of thought (philosophy, in fact). But that does not make me detached from being social and friendly.

8. Yes. I am awaiting hell. Awaiting a golden unicorn too. I hope that I will be able to see Santa Claus also.

9. So, you cal that God 'locing', eh? Why cannot the omnipotent and omniscient God make a society good and gorgeous? Well, he intentionally does that, to satisfy his sadistic pleasures, then I have no word.


Now, another big question. Do you think that the Bible is true? All it says are truths? If so, how do you know? Why is not it just another tale? And why should I believe in the God mentioned in the Bible? Any good reason, lofic or tangible evidence?

Debate Round No. 2
Christian_Debater

Pro

First, I will re-answer the previous #1 because I had little space to do it after answering the rest [I didn't answer them in the order presented].
1)
a) Of course he is able to stop them, GOD can do anything as you have already proven.

b) First I will repost what I said, if he "forces" us to do something, then we aren't given free will which has been established since the beginning of creation. In addition, if he "forces" us to love him, it is just rape. GOD wants us to love him, but does not force people to love him. Read John 3:16 [how he loves us by bringing his SON here (who is really him)], Romans 9:18 [How if you have mercy will be given mercy], Matthew 5:7 [says the same about mercy], Matthew 5:4 [Those who mourn will be comforted], etc. etc. there are tons of Bible quotes on how GOD loves us, how he will treat us fair and equally, and how he won't force us to love him but how he loves us and wants us to love him.

As for the first half of "b" which I am addressing now, you should read the book of Judges. Israel was punished greatly for going against GOD, or read 1 Kings 13:1-4 where GOD basically ruins Jeroboam's hand. So why does GOD let these things happen? If he didn't, how could we be judged for our sins? Or how could we learn from our mistakes? Or if he stopped us, would it make a difference?

Let me explain, if you have cats and you tell them to not have sex and you move them apart, as soon as you are going to leave they will have sex right? So even if GOD stops them, they will keep doing it anyways. Read Romans 1:22-32 or the entire chapter, it talks about the same thing but not about cats.

In addition, how would we learn something is wrong without being punished? For example, a kid poops on the floor. His parents do nothing about it. When he goes to school and poops on the floor, he doesn't know it is wrong - he was never punished for it. However, once the teacher scolds him, he realizes it's wrong. If we are not punished, we will never learn anything.

In addition, remember Romans 8:29-30, GOD knows what will happen before it happens and has basically preplanned all of existence. He already knew who was going to die at what time. Moreover, he punishes accoridngly [quoted this in the previous round]. Also, if you think Christians get a "nice and easy" death, which I hope I get, if you read Revelation we get treated pretty badly before we die because of how evil the world becomes.

c) I already talked about how the Bible quote on "Wisdom" is not even from the Bible, it's from that website as I cited before. However, pertaining to the rest of this question, I already answered it earlier in "b". I will now answer "a" which was another question that I didn't have enough characters to answer. It was at the end of my opponent's first argument.

a) I would highly doubt it, especially with all the Bible quotes telling us not to live in the flesh. So I'm going to say no on this one. Just read John 4:24, it says GOD is spirit, not flesh.

Now these are answers to the newer questions you have posted.

1) This is with the original Question #1, I will put them here now so it is easier to read.
For Deuteronomy 8:2 and 13:3, that is very simple. Without me even having to have a bunch of Bible quotes, let me put it this way. You are sitting in front of GOD, and he says "You are going to hell." and you ask "Why." In the Bible GOD judges you based on what you have done, if you have never done anything, then you can't be judged for it, even if GOD knows you're going to do it. Basically, it's like me grounding my child for swearing because I know he swears when he plays videogames, but he has yet to play videogames today. Or like punishing people for crimes before they commit them [remember that movie?]. So yea, I just kept it simple. We can get more in-depth if you really need it. As for the 2 Chronicles 32:31, I answered that with the above statement. If you want it more in-depth, just ask it in the next round.

2) I will gladly talk about this, but will briefly cover it. This will take a lot of explanation and evidence. The symbolism you can find in other religions relate to the symbols used for demons in the Bible. For example, just a sample [because this will take too much characters to go in-depth], if you look at this: http://ancientmedicine01.files.wordpress.com...... the symbol for "Heart" which is on the Jewish flag, is the symbol of moloch and remphan. Can I prove this? Read these Bible quotes first: Acts 5:25-27, Acts 7:42-43. Now to quote Acts 7:43 "Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.". So what is the star of remphan? Click on this : http://www.bing.com...... or just look up "star of remphan" in any image search and the same symbol on the Jewish flag, that is in hinduism, is there. So who is remphan? well click on this:
http://en.wikipedia.org...... acording to this remphan is an egyptian idol. There, I just showed you a connection right there. It's a brief example, but just something to get you thinking. You should do research on babylon, which would make this a lot easier for me to prove. [and take a lot less characters].

3) I answered this one previously. Also, I did not dodge the question, as I stated I ran out of characters. If you don't believe me, just count them all or copy and paste my argument into your box when you debate, and look at the characters remaining.

As for the starving children, I already pointed to Romans 8:29-30. GOD knows what you will do regardless of the situation. It may be hard to comprehend, but in the future because of their situation they may find GOD, or regardless of what GOD does they may never find him. Pertaining to them starving however, that is mainly humans' fault. GOD does give us free will, and humans have purposely starved other's for their own benefit of money and power. In addition, there are many countries with starving children, an example is Ethiopia, that have the Bible preeched to them. It's not as if the opportunity isn't there, but GOD does not rape us and force us to love him.

As for Heaven and Hell, here is what I find funny. People think it is okay, if they are right [being atheism], that people can get sent to prison for life. If you know anything about prison, it is never ending torture both mentally and physically by other inmates. They think its fine for them to be sent to prison and not destroy the outside world. However, when it comes to Heaven and Hell, there is a big difference. Not really, when if you think your current life now is all that matters, prison is the equivalent to Hell.

4) Okay, I"ll wait till then.

5) First off, you misunderstand the definition of Mysogyny:

1.hatred of women: a hatred of women, as a sexually defined group

Nothing that you have posted talks about women being hated. Also, the line right after that in Genesis 7:3 says "Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female;" which is not in correlation to your point.

In addition, what is marriage in the first place? Marriage is when a man owns a women and becomes his property. Thats what the definition and origination of it is. Does that make every married man a mysogynist? No, obviously it does not. [http://www.historyofmarriage.org......] - "...women were treated as mere "property"."

The Bible clearly defines different roles for men and women, as stated in the previous argument. Also, I posted and showed how men are to treat women as themselves, or as how Christ loved the church. You know how much Jesus did for the church, right? I have disproven that it is mysgonistic, so please move on.

Now I am out of characters. I will post the rest of my response for 6) onward in the comment section, and at the beginning of the next round for convenience. Please try to narrow the questions. I am constantly runnning out of characters.
Sam-sinha

Con

1)

a) I have not proven anything. I have just quoted what the Bible says. It does not prove anything at all.

b) You used the ‘Cat analogy’. But forgot one thing. I am not omnipotent, I cannot do the things which are impossible. On the contrary, your God can do the things which are ostensibly impossible. I am not asking whether I am capable of doing something or not. What I am asking you is whether your GOD is capable of doing that. You dodged it away in a very convincing way, but it would take more to convince me. GOD is omnipotent. WHY IS NOT HE DOING IT IF HE IS OMNIPOTENT? DOES HE CHOOSE NOT TO DO IT? If so, WHY? GOD wants to make a good society? Or not?

Yes we learn from our mistakes. But GOD is omnipotent! He can do things happen without worrying, without making any harm. He can make us learn without committing mistakes. [If he really wants us to learn and have a good life, in lieu satisfying his sadism] Why God need to test us and to make us experienced through various things, if he can do it in a jiffy? He likes to waste time, doesnot he?


If we are not punished, we will not learn. Yes. But GOD is omnipotent. He can make us learn without wasting time, without punishing. He is omnipotent. Do not compare him with a mere human teacher. You God, I say precisely.

b) God is a spirit. Right? I see, the Bible really contradicts itself in a very ludicrous way.

When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. (Exodus 33:22)
Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen. (Exodus 33:23)
For the LORD thy God walketh in the midst of thy camp (Deuteronomy 23:14)

And I have to believe in the Bible. Good one!

c) I can't keep late hours to say the same thing again and again. Why does the Omniscient God need to test? Well, take no tension. You don't need to answer. I've understood what you'll say.

d) You are not saying what proves your God to be real. You just mentioned what the Bible says and what is the meaning of what. Remember, you did not give a single proof or logic to show that your God is the real one. Give that one friend, then we will talk about Babylon, Aramu Muru, the Nazca plateau and a lot of other things.

e) The GOD really can stop warmongers and ba people. But he won't do it. The God does not force us or 'rape us'. But he lets bad people commit rape on others. He doesnot rape us, but can allow us to be raped by others. Really! Such a nice God! He must be real!


Hey! I can't accuse God. He has the 'freewill' excuse. So benevolent he is!

f) That was in a patriarchal society. And for now, there is where the difference of mind lies in. I do not claim that WOMAN is the MALE's property. Because my thinking makes me consider females as HUMAN BEINGS, as LIVING CREATURES with freedom. On the contrary, your religious faith constrains you to take females as GOODS, as COMMODITIES. Have you seen Godard's movies? You can clearly see how perverted some of us are, and some of us to go that extent to believe that females are our properties. THIS IS A DISGRACE THAT THE RELIGIOUS TEXTS MAKE PEOPLE THINK THE SAME OF WAY THEY USED TO THINK THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO.

And, we blame it one rapists only! We do not make any endeavour to teach people that women are not commodities.



g) Say a word against what you believe. And that anti-opinion is disproven. Great!

h) The Bible definitely is a reflection if the society as it was back then. So, it is not surprising that it has descriptions of real places. But CORRELATION proves nothing.

New-York City does not prove the existence of Spider-Man, Forest Hills in Queens does not prove it either. Mahabharatha and Ramayana contain descriptions of real places. But it does not prove that the war of Mahabharatha was 100% a real account. Of course, it does say some real stuff. BUT IT IS NOT PROOF OF KRISHNA'S MIRACLE. The author(s) talked through their hats. It is clear. Give some evidence that the Bible is real. Do not show correlations. I've read the epic of Gilgamesh. It does not prove Enkidu's adventure, regardless of the correlations and reflections of the society it contains.

Debate Round No. 3
Christian_Debater

Pro

My entire argument will not fit. I would ask that you check the comment I will post after this with the continuation of my response. Also I was going to add more, but I am exhausted so I'm just pasting what I saved from earlier.

1)
a) You forget what your argument was apparently. You were claiming that if GOD is omnipotent, howcome situations like you claimed can happen. I showed you biblically why it can happen, and still makes GOD omnipotent.

b) I already told you this. Firstly, the cat analogy was in correlation to Romans chapter 1 which I cited. It talks about the same situation only about homosexuality. I would suggest reading it. Also, I know you are not GOD that was not the point. The point was for you to understand that even if GOD interveined in every situation, people would still think about doing it. If we read the Bible, GOD is not just focused on the external things you do, but also the internal. Let me quote Matthew 5:28 " But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.". That is what Jesus is saying in addition to adultery already being bad. Just wanting to commit adultery, is equivalent to actually committing it. Therefore, if GOD did as you wanted, it wouldn't make any difference because they would still be sinning internally and it would of stopped nothing. However, if GOD lets them do what is wrong and punishes them, they learn its wrong internally and externally [because they realize the bad effects of their actions] instead of GOD just intervening everytime.

I am not comparing him to a mere human teacher, but humans are humans. We are not omnipotent, therefore, if there was another way to learn, we wouldn't be able to comprehend it anyways.

b) [you put two "b" s] Not at all. Of course GOD is a spirit as the Bible says, did you forget what it says in the beginning?
"God created man in his own image". Just because GOD is a spirit, does not mean the appearance of his spirit is not equivalent to having arms and legs. Just because he has those features, does not denounce him of being a spirit.

Of course he can. Does a spirit with legs not walk? However, in the context of this Bible quote, that isn't what it is saying at all. You didn't post the entire quote. Lets get the entire context "14 For the LORD thy God walketh in the midst of thy camp, to deliver thee, and to give up thine enemies before thee; therefore shall thy camp be holy: that he see no unclean thing in thee, and turn away from thee." It is saying GOD is with them. As it says a lot in the Bible that I can cite if you want. They are saying GOD is on their side, therefore they are guaranteed to win.

c) Okay then why do you keep asking? There is a thing specifically in the Bible called the book of life which has all the deeds you have done. Sure, GOD knows what you are going to do, but then I ask you a few questions.

1) If he didn't test, like I said before, and you went and saw GOD, would you find it fair to be judged before you did anything? [pre-crime, remember that movie as I said?]

2) If GOD didn't allow time to pass, then wouldn't souls that would have been created cease to exist? Therefore, it would be impossible for them to go to Heaven? Basically, if GOD just ended existence now and just judged everyone, souls that GOD know that would turn to him would never get the chance to because existence on the physical plane would have ended. They would never exist.

d) You misunderstood the logical progression. If the Bible says that these things are demons/idols, and they turn out to be demons/idols and used in multiple religions, than it means the Bible is accurate. I will go more indepth on this in the comments section because I ran out of characters again.

e) So, let me ask you something. If doing it in your mind is just as bad as physical, does GOD prevent anything by stopping them? Or would they just keep on doing the same thing over and over again? Moreover, if that person being raped would eventually change her lifestyle. Say for example, she got raped and then because of it, she realized where she was living was dangerous and moved to a better community. After she does that, her life gets better. Then, was the rape benefitial in the long run? Keep in mind, the person who is going to rape, is going to rape regardless. Basically, I'm looking at it like chess. You give up a knight in order to take a queen.

What I am saying is that of course rape is bad. Just like stealing or murdering, but you are looking at it only at a human's perspective. If we look at the bigger picture, what could be the pros and cons to each situation? Of course GOD is against rape, just like bullying, but GOD also is a genius.

Let me give you an example, a personal one. When I grew up, I was an atheist. I actually mocked Christians most of my life. I barely showered, I was poor, I went to a bad school, and my Dad never paid for me to get a haircut. I was called things like "Jew-fro", beat up, and picked on my entire life. In highschool, I smoked lots of marijuana to escape my problems. I really hated my life. I used to do nothing in school. My grades were horrible. So one day, my Dad decided to kick me out. I don't remember 100% what I said, but I said something on my way home from school along the lines of "If only I had another change or another life, this wouldn't of happened." So you know what happened?

My mother, who my entire family demonized and called bad names, I decided to call her and tell her what happened. She came RIGHT away and picked me up. I was honestly shocked. She brought me to Toronto from Hamilton, and I still live with her today. I graduated highschool, I found GOD, I am in College, I am working, I have a fiance, etc.

However, if I never went through those hardships, I would have never found GOD. I would have never even cared. I would of just focused on other things. Its because of the bad things I went through, that I found GOD and even appreciated what he has done for me.

My main point is we cant look at bad scenarios as if they don't have any positive repercussions. Of course, the people who bully or rape or murder will get punished [remember the bible quote I cited earlier], but GOD is omniscient. These people would of raped or murdered regardless of the situation, that has to be kept in mind.

I hope you understand what I am saying. For an atheist, it is going to be really hard to comprehend. Trust me I know, I used to be there.

f) I agree women are not commodities. Let me repost what I posted earlier, because you have no argument here:
Ephesians 5:25-29
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

Now let me explain this again. Verse 25 says love your wife as Christ loved the church, do you remember what Christ did on the cross? Just read the last few words, "and gave himself for it;" it is saying to die to protect your wives, is that mysoginy? Verse 28-29 talk about loving their own bodies like their wives. Verse 29 is very clear "For no man ever yet hated his own flesh;". They say to treat your wives as yourself [your flesh as it says or your body], it says no one hates their flesh, therefore it is the opposite of mysoginy. Remember the definition, mysoginy is the hatred of women, this is the exact opposite as I already showed you. The other marriage stuff was just additional arguments but they weren't necessary
Sam-sinha

Con

1)
a) Where did you show? I asked you a very simple question. You quoted from the Bible. Where did you prove anything? You asked to tell the problem with Christianity. Because, it justifies even mean things in the name of religion, by using circular logic.

b)That is my question. Why will not omnipotent God be able to control people's thinking for a moment and make a peaceful society? Is it not his goal?

"They learn..." If it really is God's intentions to let them understand their guilt, why cannot God do it in a jiffy? If he cannot do it, how is he omnipotent? You cannot be omnipotent, if you are unable to do at least one thing, regardless of whether you are capable of doing every other thing or not.

And if God is omnipotent, and not trying to do it in a jiffy and let people kill each other for thousands of years, in order to make them learn, is not that a lame logic? Your God is malevolent then. Too malevolent.

b) (I put two 'b's) A spirit has body? What kind of spirit is that? A ghost? Christianity must know what kind of properties a spirit should possess. Please define that in detail. This is a big problem.

c) Man! The God is omniscient, remember? He would ALREADY KNOW people's jobs.

d) "Keep in mind, the person who is going to rape, is going to rape regardless." That is my question that you are claiming you have refuted. WHY SHOULD I CALL GOD OMNIPOTENT, IF HE CANNOT STOP RAPIST'S FREE-WILL? DOES NOT HE HAVE THE POWER? AND EVEN IF HE IS ABLE, MUST NOT DOING, WHY CALL HIM GOOD? HE IS HORRIBLE. HE IS HATEFUL.

Plain question. Answer this. Don't claim the test thing. 'Omnipotent' mans "unlimited authority or power". If he cannot control free-will, how is he omnipotent? OMNIPOTENT means being able to do every single thing. Remember that.

e) "If we look at the bigger picture, what could be the pros and cons to each situation?" Rape has a 'pro' situation? GREAT! This is what patriarchy says. If a woman is forced to leave a place for 'BETTER LIFE', after rape, that is ENFORCEMENT, that is BRUTALITY, that is a CRIME. It DOES NOT make life better.

Sorry if I am being rude. But I cannot resist when someone justifies Rape (and pictures its 'pros' from any perspective, like religious) for even a single microsecond.

f) What you are giving is called A PERSONAL ANECTODE, or, EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE. That does no way prove that God exists.

g) You made my point flourish. That is exactly what I said. "These people would of raped or murdered regardless of the situation, that has to be kept in mind." God is either 'not omnipotent' or ' he is malevolent'. Nothing in between. Check the dictionaries if you have trouble with the meanings.

h) "Trust me I know, I used to be there." I was expecting this a lot earlier. You are too late to say this. I have no comment on this. Personal anecdotes and empirical evidence cannot prove anything. Instead of justifying things from the Bible, please establish the claim that 'the Bible' is truth and not 'contracdictory'. And, please tell me more about the talking serpent.

i) Religions here, Christianity) has occasssional good verses about woman. YES, IT DOES. I AGREE. But in most of the cases, what is the outcome and conclusion? THE BIBLE IS FULL OF CONTRADICTIONS REGARDING THIS. Do not you think that 'his female' is hatred of women? Enslaving is the father of hatred, in apatriarchal society. Well, justifying rape by any mean (even if it is for a negligible amount of time) is CONDEMNABLE according to me.

j) Evidence? Where is it, sir? What you are claiming to be logic what the Bible says. And I am asking you to prove that how come the Bible is to be relied on? Where is the evidence that it is not a story?

k) "Therefore, if there are idols and demons in the Bible, and they can be correlated to real life, it shows that these demons are real and that GOD is real too"

Wait wait wait! If I can correlate the things like the Kingscross station, does that prove that Harry Potter is for real?

Where did I refute the GREAT FLOOD? It may well have happened. Even Manu-Samhita hints to that. Though that is not an evidence, it is definitely an apple of discord between historians. It could have happened. But that the Bible describes the Great Flood doesnot mean that EVERY SINGLE thing is true, and it does not prove it either that the incidents described in the Bible really happened..

RMS Titanic sank. That does not make the story of 'Titanic'(1997) true. That would just be logical fallacy about correlation. You can Google it.

A story can be based on real events, with fictional records of characters. King Solomon's temple does not prove the Bible is truth, either. Do you have any tangible evidence?

For example : What you are saying is comparable to this one. Read the statements

1. The existence of New-York is real.
2. Spider-Man lives in New York.
3. Therefore, Spider-Man is real.

Does that make any sense?

l) "I have shown you much evidence" -- Yes. You did. But you have mistaken 'anecdote' and 'claim' for evidence. YOU STILL HAVE NOT GIVEN ANY EVIDENCE why the Bible is real.

Trust me, you can get good proof that anatomy books are real. The physics books are real. They have tangible evidence.

How can you validate that the Bible, too, has proof? WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE?

Saying 'I have Evidence' and 'Showing evidence, in lieu of quoting from a book without validating the accounts are ALL real' - these two things have a distinct difference.
Debate Round No. 4
Christian_Debater

Pro

Just saying, I should NOT have put this to the last hour, but I have been extremely busy, so I digress. As usual, I would suggest you check the comments because I can almost guarantee I am going to run out of room again.

1)
a) I am not using circular logic. The whole premise of Christianity is that the Bible is the truth. Therefore, the Bible claims GOD is omnipotent. Your arguments are against Christianity, to basically prove it as false. The barring of you is to prove it as incorrect, and me as correct. I hope that helps you out.

As for mean things in the name of religion, I would honestly read the Bible.

b) Technically, he can. Read Romans 8:29-30. However, he does not at the same time. It"s outlined in Romans 8 if you read it.

Okay first, that would be rape. You are upset about rape in your posts, yet you talk about raping as if GOD should do it. Make up your mind. Forced love is rape.

Can you be omnipotent if you cannot create something without creating it? Come on, you are taking omnipotent too far and over stretching it how you"d like.

No how is that lame logic? Also, people will kill each other regardless. The whole point of existence is to go to Heaven. Did angels have to go through what we did? No, and if you read the Bible stuff happens in Heaven and the devil basically tries to ruin everything. Is GOD honestly not going to test people now and teach them the errors of their ways? He can calculate everything we are going to do because our thoughts are very limited, but come on.

Your argument is that if GOD can do everything that he should be able to force us to do what he wants. However, you are going against the whole purpose of a soul in the first place. Besides, if you honestly look at the creation of existence, it"s equivalent to owning a pet. You own a dog, you give it a huge backyard, food to eat, water to drink, a place to sleep. You want it to obey you, but you want it to love you. You could always just have a robotic dog that does everything you want, but you don"t feel the same affection. GOD wants us to love him, but he doesn"t force us to love him [that would be rape].

c) No you misunderstand, re-read what I posted. I said there are reasons why GOD does not do what you claim and I addressed them. Please just read them.

d) No, that makes no sense. What would be the purpose of GOD creating existence to create a bunch of robots?

Of course, just as I showed in Romans 8:29-30. You still make the choice, so you have free will. However, GOD can calculate what you are going to do, and therefore, teaches you what is required in order for you to be as holy as possible. In Romans 8 and even in Romans 1 it outlines how GOD knows that some people refuse to learn, no matter what GOD will do for them. Therefore, he lets them go ahead and do what they want. They don"t care about the consequences, and GOD does not force us to love him.

e) I understand. Like I said, I can understand what you are saying. Rape is never a good thing, neither is murder. However, neither is allowing yourself to die. Is there a pro situation in allowing yourself to die? Yes, you die to protect someone you love. There are pros and cons to every situation.

I"m surprised you don"t just bring up Jesus on the cross on this issue and argue all of Christianity on that notion that you have.

f) From that perspective, yes. I was just telling you what has happened to me. My point of this debate is not to win votes, as much as it is to help you.

g) Its interesting what you say. You want GOD to just possess people and force them to do what he wants? Come on, then you would call GOD a rapist. That"s like saying GOD can"t be omnipotent because he can"t make something without creating it. That is something, therefore, because he can"t create something without creating it, he isn"t omniscient. Come on dude.

h) Alright sure, that"s easy. Can you tell me exactly how it talked? Nope. Can snakes create vibrations through their mouths? Yep. Can we understand sounds into thoughts via vibrations? Yes[ http://www.reportageonline.com...].
Therefore, it is possible. Especially keep in mind, it is demonically possessed. I can go about the scientific possibilities as I just outlined, but if you really think about it, can a sock puppet talk? Of course not. However, if I shove my hand into it and move its lips as I speak, can it talk? Of course, because it is possessed by my hand. The same can be said with a costume, it doesn"t talk, but when you are in control of it, it can talk.

i) Well that"s interesting. At least you can"t claim its misogyny now. Also, it clearly states to "Love thy neighbor as thyself" not "Love thy male neighbor as thyself".

I get your point here. You are saying that if I make a story about New York and it has giant flying spiders, it doesn"t mean giant flying spiders exist. However, we are talking about things written by the people who did exist at this time.

For example, Kind David wrote about how he fought wars, and how GOD helped him do it. He did exist, and he died. So you can say he just thought GOD helped him, and move along. However, his son Solomon had the same experience. You can also say well, he just thought it was true, then I ask a question. If they were making this all up, and keep in mind they wrote the books in Kings, and parts of Samuel, as well as Proverbs and Psalms, then why include their mistakes?

For example, if they were writing fiction and they wanted to be seen as great, they say GOD helped them. Then why would David write about how he messed up and almost got killed, how he was treated horribly for his mistakes, as well as what happened to his children? Moreover, why would Solomon admit to his mistakes too? Or having concubines in the first place or committing idolatry? If these were fake accounts, they could have just edited out the stuff that made them look bad.

Also, you must ask, what is the motivation? Why would they need to write a book about GOD helping them. They could just say GOD blessed them like Samuel and they were awesome, instead of basically writing how without GOD they were nothing. Do you see my point? There is no motivation for them to write it in such ways. With that logic, as well as with understanding that there are a lot of things that are in the Bible that exist, it is easy to deduct it is true.

I"m surprised you never addressed how Ethiopia is mentioned in Genesis, but I digress.

i) Read above. If you want more, just make another debate or just ask me, I have a limited amount of characters.

Well look at that, the first argument I didn't run out of characters on. I am honestly surprised. Well I thank you for the debate. If you'd like to continue debating and just make this part 1 out of a series, let me know. There are a lot of things we didn't get to fully address on but the max amount of rounds is 5. So I can just make a debate called "Christianity 2" and we can keep going. Just let me know at the beginning or end of your argument, and I'll address all your stuff in the beginning of "Christianity 2".

I appreciate the debate, it helps me improve. There are a lot of debate topics on the Bible [even between Christians]. This just helps me learn more and improve myself.

I hope I explained a few things to you. Also, if we do have a next debate, there are a couple of things I'd like to talk on since you brought up books on physics and what not.

Lastly, please don't let this offend you [you'd be surprised to hear this offended someone what I am about to say] but may GOD bless you, and I appreciate the debate.

P.S

I am so sorry for the wait. I am still sanitizing my apartment for my fiance because she has problems and she can't handle the cat hair etc. so I have to clean everything. Also I've been tired too, but just saying sorry and thanks again for the debate.
Sam-sinha

Con

1. According to your logic, your God loves us all. But in reality, I can find him to be a dictator of a celestial North Korea.

2. I did not misunderstand. Easy question it was. ( False dichotomy)

3. A Personal Anecdote does not give anything. I am yet to find someone who did not believe in SANTA CLAUS and then started believing in. ( Naked assertion )

4. The snake talked using vibrations? And who received that? And why does the Bible not specify that clearly? Perhaps, the storymakers did not have that much scientific knowledge back them, did they?

5. Where is the proof that they themselves wrote it?
Learn the difference between a historical text and personal anecdotes.



Nothing to say!
Debate Round No. 5
24 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Christian_Debater 2 years ago
Christian_Debater
I hope we get some votes on this. Im sick of all the ties =/.
Posted by Christian_Debater 2 years ago
Christian_Debater
I honestly dont know if Im going to make this 1 hour time limit, but its time to get to this >: O
Posted by Sam-sinha 2 years ago
Sam-sinha
No problem. :)
Posted by Christian_Debater 2 years ago
Christian_Debater
Hey sorry been busy, gonna eat a bit and then work on my argument.
Posted by Christian_Debater 2 years ago
Christian_Debater
Well, thats perfectly easy to explain. If God gave you no free will, would you be a human or a robot?

Also, if God interveined in everything, would we learn from our mistakes?

Thats all Im saying, Also, I have other debates on other sites and what not, and this debate takes the most amount of effort, so I'll probably finish my argument tomorrow. I havent even read your response yet.

But hey man, honestly, its okay. I've been there, I know what you're thinking.
Posted by voice_of_truth 2 years ago
voice_of_truth
Christian_debater no offense but some of your arguments make no sense at all. If God really existed and loved us then why did the world wars happen? so many innocent people died...
Posted by voice_of_truth 2 years ago
voice_of_truth
Christian_debater no offense but some of your arguments make no sense at all. If God really existed and loved us then did the world wars happen? so many innocent people died...
Posted by Christian_Debater 2 years ago
Christian_Debater
Read the comment below first. Just respond to all of this too in your argument please. Sorry man, the character limit does this.

Genesis 11:1-8 "11 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.
3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.
4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city."
So this says how there are different languages, and as well talks about Pangea because the Earth itself was not scattered, all the people were united. All of them.
Like I said, there are many things in the Bible that can be correlated to real life. However, if you want to change this conversation into this that is fine, we only have 1 Round left though. I have shown you much evidence, I don"t have enough characters to post tons of research. I tried to post as much as possible however.
Posted by Christian_Debater 2 years ago
Christian_Debater
This is the other part of the argument.

g) I don"t know what you are talking about here. I have used logical and evidence to support everything I have said.
h) Okay, here is where I will try to explain to you something. If the Bible is fact, it will contain facts. It can be correlated to real life. Therefore, if there are idols and demons in the Bible, and they can be correlated to real life, it shows that these demons are real and that GOD is real too [because of the differentiation between the two]. In addition, if in the Bible King David existed, who was very heavily faithful, it also provides that GOD exists because Jerusalem and David existed.
Basically, the more evidence there is to prove that things in the Bible are facts, increases it"s trustworthyness. I already showed how demons in the bible GOD warns about are prevalent today. They exist in modern religions.
The point of this : http://en.wikipedia.org... was to illustrate how many different accounts of their being a great flood existed. Also, like in the epic of Gilgamesh, they blame pagan Gods for the cause. The two main connections being, it was caused by a God, and that it existed. The Bible speaks of Noah"s arc. Now we have to ask, which story is the most accurate? We can deduct there was a great flood indeed.

I would like to know talk about how the Bible talks about Pangea. http://en.wikipedia.org... Pangea was when there was basically no diversion of land. If we read the Bible, GOD divides up the people, and gives them new languages. This is in correlation to Pangea.

[read the comment above now, I ran out of characters].
Posted by Sam-sinha 2 years ago
Sam-sinha
Do not need to say that. I like you. I like every human-being. I do not care whether you are an atheist or a theist. I have respect for all. I will mock your opinion, if necessary. But will not make personal-attacks. My attack will always be focused on ideas and opinions.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Phoenix61397 2 years ago
Phoenix61397
Christian_DebaterSam-sinhaTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: A mostly evenly matched debate. There were a lot of points brought up throughout the argument, and con had some pretty good ones. The point about Spider-Man and NYC was particularly good. However, this was the only major point that he ended up winning in my opinion. The debate was very close until the end, where con dropped a few arguments and gave some weak rebuttals for most others. Pro wins the debate.