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Christians, Who Invented the Trinity? Can you prove the Sonship of Jesus?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/5/2015 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 476 times Debate No: 67829
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The three monotheistic religions " Judaism, Christianity, and Islam " all purport to share one fundamental concept: belief in God as the Supreme Being, the Creator and Sustainer of the Universe. Known as "Tawhid" in Islam, this concept of the Oneness of God was stressed by Moses in a Biblical passage known as the "Shema", or the Jewish creed of faith: "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." (Deuteronomy 6:4)
It was repeated word-for-word approximately 1500 years later by Jesus when he said "...The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord." (Mark 12:29)
Muhammad came along approximately 600 years later, bringing the same message again: "And your God is One God: there is no God but He." (The Quran 2:163)
Christianity has digressed from the concept of the Oneness of God, however, into a vague and mysterious doctrine that was formulated during the fourth century. This doctrine, which continues to be a source of controversy both within and outside the Christian religion, is known as the Doctrine of the Trinity. Simply put, the Christian doctrine of the Trinity states that God is the union of three divine persons " the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit " in one divine being.
If that concept, put in basic terms, sounds confusing, the flowery language in the actual text of the doctrine lends even more mystery to the matter:
"We worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity... for there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Ghost is all one... they are not three gods, but one God... the whole three persons are co-eternal and co-equal... he therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity..." (excerpts from the Athanasian Creed)
Let's put this together in a different form: one person, God the Father, plus one person, God the Son, plus one person, God the Holy Ghost, equals one person, God the What? Is this English or is this gibberish?
It is said that Athanasius, the bishop who formulated this doctrine, confessed that the more he wrote on the matter, the less capable he was of clearly expressing his thoughts regarding it.
How did such a confusing doctrine get its start?

Trinity in the Bible
References in the Bible to a Trinity of divine beings are vague, at best.
In Matthew 28:19, we find Jesus telling his disciples to go out and preach to all nations. While this "Great Commission" does make mention of the three persons who later become components of the Trinity, the phrase "baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" is quite clearly an addition to Biblical text " that is, not the actual words of Jesus " as can be seen by two factors:
1) baptism in the early Church, as discussed by Paul in his letters, was done only in the name of Jesus; and"
2) the "Great Commission" was found in the first gospel written, that of Mark, bears no mention of Father, Son and/or Holy Ghost " see Mark 16:15
The only other reference in the Bible to a Trinity can be found in the Epistle of 1 John 5:7. Biblical scholars of today, however, have admitted that the phrase " there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" is definitely a "later addition" to Biblical text, and it is not found in any of today's versions of the Bible.
It can, therefore, be seen that the concept of a Trinity of divine beings was not an idea put forth by Jesus or any other prophet of God. This doctrine, now subscribed to by Christians all over the world, is entirely man-made in origin.

The Doctrine Takes Shape
While Paul of Tarsus, the man who could rightfully be considered the true founder of Christianity, did formulate many of its doctrines, that of the Trinity was not among them. He did, however, lay the groundwork for such when he put forth the idea of Jesus being a "divine Son". After all, a Son does need a Father, and what about a vehicle for God's revelations to man? In essence, Paul named the principal players, but it was the later Church people who put the matter together.
Tertullian, a lawyer and presbyter of the third-century Church in Carthage, was the first to use the word "Trinity" when he put forth the theory that the Son and the Spirit participate in the being of God, but all are of one being of substance with the Father

A Formal Doctrine Is Drawn Up
When controversy over the matter of the Trinity blew up in 318 between two church men from Alexandria " Arius, the deacon, and Alexander, his bishop " Emperor Constantine stepped into the fray.
Although Christian dogma was a complete mystery to him, he did realize that a unified church was necessary for a strong kingdom. When negotiation failed to settle the dispute, Constantine called for the first ecumenical council in Church history in order to settle the matter once and for all.
Six weeks after the 300 bishops first gathered at Nicea in 325, the doctrine of the Trinity was hammered out. The God of the Christians was now seen as having three essences, or natures, in the form of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

The Church Puts Its Foot Down
The matter was far from settled, however, despite high hopes for such on the part of Constantine. Arius and the new bishop of Alexandria, a man named Athanasius, began arguing over the matter even as the Nicene Creed was being signed; "Arianism" became a catch-word from that time onward for anyone who didn't hold to the doctrine of the Trinity.
It wasn't until 451, at the Council of Chalcedon that, with the approval of the Pope, the Nicene/Constantinople Creed was set as authoritative. Debate on the matter was no longer tolerated; to speak out against the Trinity was now considered blasphemy, and such earned stiff sentences that ranged from mutilation to death. Christians now turned on Christians, maiming and slaughtering thousands because of a difference of opinion.

Debate Continues
Brutal punishments and even death did not stop the controversy over the doctrine of the Trinity, however, and the said controversy continues even today.
The majority of Christians, when asked to explain this fundamental doctrine of their faith, can offer nothing more than "I believe it because I was told to do so." It is explained away as "mystery" " yet the Bible says in 1 Corinthians 14:33 that "... God is not the author of confusion ..."
The Unitarian denomination of Christianity has kept alive the teachings of Arius in saying that God is one; they do not believe in the Trinity. As a result, mainstream Christians abhor them, and the National Council of Churches has refused their admittance. In Unitarianism, the hope is kept alive that Christians will someday return to the preachings of Jesus: "... Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve." (Luke 4:8)

Islam and the Matter of the Trinity
While Christianity may have a problem defining the essence of God, such is not the case in Islam:
"They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity, for there is no god except One God" (Quran 5:73)
It is worth noting that the Arabic language Bible uses the name "Allah" as the name of God.
Suzanne Haneef, in her book What Everyone Should Know About Islam and Muslims (Library of Islam, 1985), puts the matter quite succinctly when she says,"
"But God is not like a pie or an apple which can be divided into three thirds which form one whole; if God is three persons or possesses three parts, He is assuredly not the Single, Unique, Indivisible Being which God is and which Christianity professes to believe in." (pp.183-184)
Looking at it from another angle, the Trinity designates God as being three separate entities " the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. If God is the Father and also the Son, He would then be the Father of Himself because He is His own Son. This is not exactly logical
Christianity claims to be a monotheistic religion. Monotheism, however, has as its fundamental belief that God is One; the Christian doctrine of the Trinity " God being Three-in-One " is seen by Islam as a form of polytheism. Christians don't revere just One God, they revere three.
This is a charge not taken lightly by Christians, however. They, in turn, accuse the Muslims of not even knowing what the Trinity is, pointing out that the Qur'an sets it up as Allah the Father, Jesus the Son, and Mary his mother. While veneration of Mary has been a figment of the Catholic Church since 431 when she was given the title "Mother of God" by the Council of Ephesus, a closer examination of the verses in the Qur'an most often cited by Christians in support of their accusation, shows that the designation of Mary by Quran as a "member" of the Trinity, is simply not true.
While Quran does condemn both trinitarianism (Quran 4:171; 5:73) and the worship of Jesus and his mother Mary (the Qur'an 5:116), nowhere does it identify the actual three components of the Christian Trinity. The position of the Qur'an is that WHO or WHAT comprises this doctrine is not important; what is important is that the very notion of a Trinity is an affront against the concept of One God.
In conclusion, we see that the doctrine of the Trinity is a concept conceived entirely by man; there is no sanction whatsoever from God to be found regarding the matter simply because the whole idea of a Trinity of divine beings has no place in monotheism. In the Qur'an, God's Final Revelation to mankind, we find His stand quite clearly stated in a number of eloquent passages,
"... your God is One God: whoever expects to meet his Lord, let him work righteousness, and, in the worship of his Lord, admit no one as partner." (Quran 18:110)
"Don't make as equal with God, another deity, lest you be thrown into Hell, blameworthy and rejected." (Quran 17:39)
Because, as God tells us over and over again in a Message that is echoed throughout ALL His Revealed Scriptures,
"I am your Lord; therefore, worship Me and no other" (Quran 21:92)


God invented the Trinity, because he invented everything.
The Bible proves everything.
Debate Round No. 1


Hi. Thank you for accepting my challenge. I wish you luck.

Ok, you said that God invented the Trinity. But as I wrote in the first round, Paul has done so.
Anyway, let's imagine you are right. You said that the Bible proves everything. Can I ask you how the Bible proves the Trinity? There are only some verses in Bible in which Jesus calls God "The Father". Is there any evidence other than that? Or can you prove the Trinity without qouting the Bible? If so, please tell me. I will listen to you.

Let's read what Quran has to say about Trinity:

1. "O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about God except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of God and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in God and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, God is but One. Exalted is He above having a son." (Quran 4:171)

2. "And beware the Day (of Judgement) when God will say,"O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen. I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship God, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness. If You should punish them - indeed they are Your servants; but if You forgive them - indeed it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise." (Quran 5:115-118)

3. "They have certainly disbelieved who say that God is Christ, the son of Mary. Say, "Then who could prevent God at all if He had intended to destroy Christ, the son of Mary, or his mother or everyone on the earth?" (Quran 5:17)

4. "Indeed, the example of Jesus to God is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was." (3:59)

5. "The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of God "; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of God." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May God destroy them; how are they deluded?" (Quran 9:30)

Trinity Is Imaginary
The excess and exaggeration on the part of religious leaders and saints has always been a cause of deviation from the truth; and losing the right way to God. On this account, Islam strictly warns and forbids such exaggerations, because people's excesses in their religion lead them to blasphemy.
Jews show a lot of vain zeal and arrogance, mingled with vanity, in the direction of racialism, exclusiveness, and their saying that they are the elects of God; and that the fire of Hell will burn them not but for a few days, and such false and unreasonable claims. On the other hand, we see the Christians having raised the prophet Jesus to a deity, and in a rank of equality with God! And surely this is because they know not who the God is! They venerate Mary almost to idolatry. They attribute a physical son to God, and have falsely forged their trinity, which is the union of three hypostases (FATHER, SON, AND HOLY GHOST) in one Godhead so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three persons as to individuality!
This means that in a class room of mathematics, a Christian school boy should learn and believe that number one, three times added or multiplied by three (1+1+1=3 or 1"3=3) equals three.
But in the class-room of religion, number one, three times equals one!, which is of course contrary to all reasons.
After all if the Christian believers reject that by reasoning, he is doomed to hell for ever! In this verse the attributes of Jesus Christ, as they are in reality, have been mentioned as follows:
1. That he was indeed the son of a woman called Mary.
Just like any other human being, he lived as a fetus in his mother's womb. She gave birth to him and he was subject to development, and dependant on the existing natural laws. So, how can such a created man be considered as an everlasting God, who is unlimited in power, ability and authority?!
2. That Jesus Christ was messenger of God, a position which is far from the position of Godhead.
3. That Jesus Christ was the word of God that was created like any word and induced in Mary.
4. That Jesus Christ was a spirit created by God.
This expressive title is given to Adam and all mankind for having a divine soul, and immaterial spirit that makes the main and the basic part of man's existence.

Trinity Is The Worst Of All The Perversions In Christianity.
Among the many perversions by which Christianity has been afflicted, trinity is the worst of all.
It is a forged Christian doctrine that might have been taken from the Indian trinity consisting of their three god's namely BERHIMA - FISHNU - SIFA. The Christian version of trinity is the one substance of Godhead in which there are three persons equal in status; Father, Son, and Holy spirit.
This doctrine has been forged in the 4the century A.D.,and it cannot be deduced and derived, ever by reasoning from the present new testament that is tampered with indeed!
In this new testament which has been adopted as the Christian Holy Book, the three persons of Godhead are mentioned together in Baptismal injunction of Matthew 28:19 saying:
"Go then to all peoples everywhere and make them my disciples: Baptize them in the name of the father, the son, and the Holy spirit, and teach them to obey everything I have commanded you.'
In this Baptismal injunction, there is not the least evidence that the said three persons are gods, and one Godhead in one substance or essence.
The second case in which the three persons are brought in together is in the Pauline benediction of two CORINTHIANS, 13:14, which is in fact an appendix to the four main gospels:-
"The grace of the lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy spirit be with you all.'
Worthy of note here, that in this benediction, the phrase ``LOVE OF GOD' has replaced the father.
Here in this benediction too, there is not the least amount of clearness to give us a reason for believing the Trinity as it is defined by the priesthood.
So the trinity did never form any part of the Apostle's preaching. Later on, when the Christianity was confronted with many riddles and puzzles, to solve, and had to answer many questions, on account of their forgeries of the three and one Godhead; and had no reasonable explanation for their paradox of trinity, they began to describe it philosophically, saying:'"Trinity does not describe God as He is in Himself.'
But rather three distinct ways on which He is revealed to us! God's substance is limitless and accepts no duality, no trinity, and no plurality. If we believe in three hypostases, then all of them will have their limiting lines and bounds in order to keep their distinctions. Their limiting bounds, or entities too, must be eternal and everlasting as the god's are, and eventually we see or we come to know the Godhead is a composition of parts, or a compound of elements! And of course every compound is dependant on its elements, and every composition is in need of its smaller parts. Therefore, limiting and confining the infinite essence, and the absolutes substance of Godhead to a limited pot, such as the body of a man (Jesus), or a woman (Mary), is indeed ridiculous, and against all reasons and is not worthy of serious consideration.


I can prove anything without quoting the Bible. If you look at any tree you can easily see that somewhere there is the Trinity in them.
Debate Round No. 2


Julia5678 forfeited this round.


cho123 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3


Julia5678 forfeited this round.


cho123 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4


Julia5678 forfeited this round.


cho123 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by RodWagner 1 year ago
Actually, Jesus is an "Invention" of the Roman Family, the Flavians.
Flavian Signature Presentation - Joseph Atwill
Posted by iqpiblog 1 year ago
the concept of a trinity existed in various pre-christian pagan religions......

in fact every element of christianity existed in the religions before it.

no religion has magically come into existence without the accumulated and developed knowledge and wisdoms of wise and learned people of aforetime.

the collective history of mankind invented the concept of the trinity as a model that can be utilised to interpret the world in a particular way.

all life has the same source.....the source is common because it is unknown.

some call it god, aliens, big bang, etc........but it seems logical to deduct that jesus and all life originate from a source that if described as the lord or our father, then would support his sonship.

all religions are a codification of knowledge accumulated from that society's (polytheist) history...

noah, jesus, mahvir, buddha, krishna, muhammed, etc might have all just been well funded politicians?

or maybe gods/God, aliens, ghosts????

noone knows and it is unnecessary to establish,

historical inaccuracies or secrets or truths, or lies dont have any role in the reasoning one should use to rationalise ones actions in the world

..............just some thoughts..................hope i didnt offend in any way.......................

ps. one should strive for human unity..........the religious leaders should all reinterpret their scriptures to accept all other religions to have identical core's and harmonise contradictions using methods of linguistic interpretation and philosophical manipulation
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