Christians are NOT able to determine fairly if Jesus is really the True messiah
Debate Rounds (5)
Round 2 - Opening Arguments Only (No rebuttals)
Round 3 - Rebuttals Only
Round 4 - Counter-Rebuttals
Round 5 - Closing Arguments and Closing Statements
I will have to prove that Christians are unable to look at the old testament prophecies and kown if Jesus really fulfilled them.
Serious debates only
I will be defending the point of view that His Holiness Christ's status as Messiah is in fact legitimate and impossible to challenge. I am not a Christian but I am very religious and a student of Comparative Religions. I hope to learn from this debate as well as share some other interesting insights. I will be going through the following points, at random spots throughout the debate:
1) What is a Messiah?
2) Messianic attributes according to the Bible
3) The Judeo-Christian loop: a) Is Christ qualified? b) If not, then who? c) If none then, should we wait OR look again?
4) False prophets
Personally, I believe that it's difficult to address your statement when it's asking "do they look at the O.T.? and this requires physical evidence that they look" Since there is no way to prove whether the physical action of looking takes place on their part, I will assume that your argument challenges them by saying "can they Scripturally prove whether He is the Messiah or not?".
Note that as a student to Comparative Religion, I have come up with unique terms to describe certain things. They may seem odd and new to you but I will elaborate on them to make my point. So don't worry, you'll get it haha. And second, I have no intention on offending your point of view or your beliefs. If in anyway my arguments sound offensive, then please let me know and I will try to elaborate my point so it can become clearer to you.
Best of luck, buddy :)
I would like to first say that most Christian accept Jesus as the Messiah before checking his claims of messiah-ship. Mostly they are raised as Christian or accept Jesus as their L-rd and saviour before studying the Bible. Thus, they accept the authority of the New Testament first before they examine if Jesus is really the messiah.
And what does the New testament say:
Jesus said to his disciples: "Things that cause people to stumble are bound to come, but woe to anyone through whom they come. It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble. Luke 17:1-2
So basically, it is better to commit suicide than doubting Jesus as the messiah.
And what is the consequence of such a denial, on top of being seen as a Judas by your family and friends who all believe in Jesus?
But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
Hell. (And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night)
Furthermore, 1 John 2:2 says "Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist--denying the Father and the Son."
So if you deny Jesus, as per the new testament, you are an anti-Christ.
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 1John 4:1-2
The new testament tells you you can test if someone is from G-d, does not allows one to test Jesus claims.
What else can I say? That as per the New Testament, it's all about believing. You have eternal life if you believe in the son. As Jesus said " "You believe because you have seen me. Blessed are those who believe without seeing me." John 20:29 And "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven" Matthew 18:3.
So a Christian is not ask to wonder if Jesus is really the messiah, but to accept it. If you have doubt, you should fight those doubts! So the Christian put the cart before the horse by accepting Jesus as god and saviour before really checking if he is as James 1 say "If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. "
So the good Christian who doubt if a prophecy is really fulfil must believe and have faith that Jesus is who he says he is, in Jesus name on top of that!
"He that answers a matter before he hears it, it is folly and shame unto him" Proverbs 18:3
Finally let examine Exodus 23:8 ""Do not accept a bribe, for a bribe blinds those who see and twists the words of the innocent."
This does not talk about Jesus, of course. But Christians who accept Jesus as their lord and saviour have the reward of Heaven as a bribe. On top of that they have the punishment of hell if they refuse Jesus as their saviour. This is, in a way equivalent to a bribe, thus they have been blinded and cannot see the Hebrew Scripture for what it really say.
However, let's address the debate topic:
There are numerous verses in the O.T. that point to Jesus to be the Messiah awaited by the Jews. It is unreasonable to think that God would send a Messenger without giving Him ample proof to validate His claim. So it is safe to say that Christians do not believe in blind faith because the Bible never calls them to blindly accept anything. The fact that most individuals do, should not shake the Faith of those who study the Scriptures daily and preach the Word of God. Therefore blind faith is faith without evidence and the evidence is so overwhelming that Jesus says in John 5:39-40, "You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you posses eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life" In the OT, Isaiah 41:21 it asks to produce cause and bring forth your strong reason, which Christ had successfully done and in Amos 3:7, it says that "Surely the Sovereign Lord does nothing without revealing his plan to his servants the prophets". The thing is, that Christ made His claim and fulfilled the Judaic Prophecies yet died on the CRoss with 12 brave adherents.
In Isaiah 41:22-23 it says, "Declare to us the things to come, tells us what the future holds, so that we may know that you are gods." This is an invitation to fulfill prophecy, which Jesus being the Messiah, had to do and did. The question is, are prophecies reliable proofs of God's Messengers? Yes! It is prophecies that in fact offer the most undeniable evidence of Christ's Mission.
Evidences such as....:
The Virgin Birth (Isaiah 7:14),
The 7weeks & 62 weeks(Book of Daniel),
Birth in Bethlehem(Micah 5:2),
Riding the donkey into Jerusalem (Zechariah 9:9),
The betrayal of Judas (Zechariah 13:6),
The payment of Judas by the Pharicees to complete his task (Zechariah 11:12),
The regret of Judas (Zechariah 11:13),
The silent defense of Jesus's innocence when brought on trial (Isaiah 53:7).
Description of crucifixion (Psalms 22:16) and others.
The fact that everything prophesied concerning Christ's first appearance took place exactly as foretold provides absolute confidence that all the prophecies concerning His return will surely come to pass. But keep in mind that these prophecies are not to be read but thoroughly studied. The lack of investigation was a clear issue in the time of Christ when He condemned religious leaders because they refused to heed the signs of the times. On one occasion, they came to Him and asked Him to perform a miracle to prove He was the Messiah. Jesus rebuked them severely by saying "Do you know how to discern the appearance of the sky, but cannot discern the signs of the times? (Matt 16:3)
Jesus was trying to point out that although the men He was addressing, could predict the weather by reading the signs of thr clouds and nature, they couldn't interpret His Significance by simply reading the signs of God's Word, which was their sole duty. But you may ask what "signs of the times" is Jesus referring to. Well my friend, He was referring to the fact that the Hebrew Scriptures contain more than 300 prophecies about His First Coming. Funny thing is that, while the Hebrew Scriptures point to The First Coming of Christ, they also point to His 2nd Coming as well.
So the question is, what does the OT mean when it says "Coming of the Messiah?"
Well, it's important to note that, two completely different portraits of a Coming Messiah were described by the OT prophets. The portraits, painted by the hand of God, were placed on the same canvas, framed in one picture. How, you may ask? Well, for those who lived prior to the Birth of Jesus, the perspective of these 2 portraits of the Messiah was difficult to understand.
So imagine a man looking at a bunch of mountains. He's able to see the peak of one mountain and beyond it the peak of another. However from this view point, he can't see the valley which separates these 2 mountains. Similarly, men viewed the 2 portraits of the Messiah in the same manner. They saw 2 different persons, but missed the connection. They didn't understand that there could be just one Messiah, coming in 2 different roles and separated by the valley of time. One portrait of the Messiah depicts Him as a humble servant dubbed "the Suffering Messiah"in Isaiah 53.
The other shows the Messiah as a conquering king with a ton of power, who comes in the height of war and saves the Israelites from injustice. Descriptions of a such "Reigning Messiah" is found in Zechariah 14 and Isaiah 9:6,7
So now, it's easy to see why the 2nd would be the most popular portrait, right? Right.
But this was sooo confusing to the Rabbis of the time that they actually theorized that 2 Messiahs would be coming; a humble one and reigning one! Just like today, some people can't see how both portraits could be true of the same person, but when literalism is completely replaced with the rightful Spritual perspective, things wI'll finally begin to make total sense.
This "Jewish" problem is similar if not exactly the same as the problem the Christian community is currently having. They have 2 completely different portraits of the return of Christ, that to some appears as a Thief in the Night (2 Peter 3:10, 1 Thessalonians 5:2) and the other portrait as the Christ where He returns as a King from the sky with heavenly light shining for every eye to see. So for both Jews and Christians, there is a line that must be drawn separating literalism from Spiritual perspective. These are the obstacles in front of both Communities today.
So in conclusion, you may reject the First Coming of Jesus as the Messiah and say that I'm satisfied with what I have, I'll know when the Messiah comes, He'll be like the King David in strength, like Alexander in wit, and Solomon in power. But understand that if you take such a position to say that I don't need to study the prophecies that Jesus fulfilled, then you my friend are focusing too much on the obstacles and not enough on what the OT actually says. Believe me, when you've read them, studied them through and through, and understood it's Spiritual Meaning, then you will surely recognize Christ as your Supreme Savior and Redeemer.
Your turn my friend. :)
This is not part of the debate. If you want you can accept this debate:
It is unreasonable to think that God would send a Messenger without giving Him ample proof to validate His claim.
This is exactly what I claim. Jesus was not sent by G-d.
Christians do not believe in blind faith
They are actually ask to believe without seeing, this is by definition "blind faith".
Christ made His claim and fulfilled the Judaic Prophecies
Not only Jesus fulfilled no prophecies, he actually did not fulfilled the one the the messiah was supposed to fulfil. All those prophecies he is supposed to fulfil at his second coming. The messiah is supposed to be a king who ruled over all the earth. Because Jesus was never a king there is no evidences he fulfil any prophecies. Here are one of many prophecies concerning the messiah.
In those days and at that time I will make a righteous Branch sprout from David's line; he will do what is just and right in the land. In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will live in safety. This is the name by which it will be called: The LORD Our Righteous Savior.'
Not only Jesus did not fulfil the real messianic prophecies, but the NT takes things totally out of context. For example
For example Matthew 2:15 says "And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son." When Hosea 11:1 says that G-d's son is Israel! "When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.
Because Christian believe the NT inspired (all scriptures are inspired 2 Timothy 3:16), they find excuses for those misquoted bible verses.
This is one of those example of verses taken out of context. Even Christians would agree. The "title" of this section is "The Futility of Idols". Verse 24 says "Indeed you are nothing, And your work is nothing; He who chooses you is an abomination."
Virgin Birth (Isaiah 7:14). The original Hebrew means "young woman"
And again, I am ready to talk of the prophecies, but this is not the purpose of this debate.
"Believe me, when you've read them, studied them through and through, and understood it's Spiritual Meaning, then you will surely recognize Christ as your Supreme Savior and Redeemer."
The truth is that G-d is one, the Jewish people were mandate to reject Jesus and Jesus fulfilled no prophecies. By looking at the Hebrew Scriptures with the distorted lenses of the New Testament, you have to arrive to the conclusion Jesus fulfilled those prophecies, because "all scriptures are inspired". Nevertheless, if you look at those prophecies in context, non are fulfilled by Jesus. I would like to challenge my opponent in this debate http://www.debate.org...
Because Jesus required his follower to believe in him and to believe in the New Testament, they are unable to determine fairly if Jesus really fulfil those prophecies. If doubts, they have to ask G-d in faith and trust that Jesus is really that messiah. Furthermore, they believe that Satan is like a lion seeking whom they will devour. Thus every times they have doubts, they have to push those doubts away because it comes from the enemy. But those doubts are in fact, the true interpretation of the verse and the fact that G-d is ONE and people are forbidden to worship other gods (AKA Jesus).
So when the days of Moses were ended, & the light of Jesus encompassed the world, all the people of Israel went against Him. If you want examples then read John 8:41-42, where Jesus was protested against & He responds & says if you love God then you'd love Me, which is a clear indication that if anyone is to love Jesus, then they should love Him due to the investigation they've done into His claim & not blind love. So the people went against Jesus & said that the advent of Him that the Bible had foretold must fulfill the laws of Moses. The thing is, this young Nazarene (Jesus), who laid claim to the station of the divine Messiah, had annulled the law of divorce & of the sabbath day"the most weighty of all the laws of Moses. No one can just walk around annulling laws that God had prescribed to Mankind at that time, but Christ did & that is worthy of investigation. On top of that, the people of Israel are even to this day still expecting that Manifestation which the Bible hath foretold! How many Manifestations of Holiness, how many Revealers of the light everlasting, have appeared since the time of Moses, & yet Israel, wrapt in the densest veils of satanic fancy & false imaginings, is still expectant that the idol of her own handiwork will appear with such signs that they themselves had created! So to reject Jesus means you reject God's love, & therefore rejecting Him means you reject the whole Bible, because you did not do what God had asked of you.
2) I mentioned "Christians do not believe in blind faith" because I am referring to the Christian that Jesus describes & there are plenty in the world today. Just because the Christians you have interacted with aren't reflecting the standard that Jesus asks, then it should be your duty to help them understand the importance of their role in society, & not reject the Message entirely. Verily, it is more bountiful for 1 to change a 1000, than a 1000 to change 1. Be that 1.
3) Your response in the 3rd point you offer, is very squirmishy (A term which means showing signs of discomfort). I gave you an elaborate, well thought out example & relates to society's expectation of 2 types of Messiahs. My point is clearly proven about society clinging to the 2nd portrait of the Messiah being King, because you clearly say that Christ was no king & there is no evidences of him fulfilling anything. So you just did what society is doing today. Point proven. In addition, I have to respectfully tell you that the example I provided above was read but not understood, which is another point that society is doing today, & that also proves the point that people read but don't understand. Not understanding that the Messiah is Jesus is due of the false imaginings & wishful expectations that society creates, which you have unfortunately adopted. I beg you to reconsider the this way of analyzing the Bible & adopt the way of analysis that God prescribes through Jesus, which is investigate the claims...thoroughly.
4) Jer 33:15: This verse, like Psalms 132:1, like Jer 23:5-6 & others, says that the Messiah will be a descendant of David. However one of these prophecies is Isa 7:14 where the prophet Isaiah addresses the "house of David," meaning his family & descendants, & speaks of a virgin being pregnant with a child, & giving birth to the child. Isaiah says this in the context of it being a sign from God. He also says that the child would be referred to as Immanuel, which means, God with us.
The NT books of Matt & Luke record details involving the birth of Jesus, who was born about 700 years after the time of Isaiah, saying that he was born of the virgin Mary & is the Son of God. Because He claimed to be the Son of God, Christ literally can be referred to as "God with us." Therefore this prophecy was fulfilled & Jesus was the King awaited by the Jews. (warning: No Literalism. Focus on Spiritual POV) Side note, it should be noted that the OT uses the word to refer to young, unmarried women, & that unmarried women were culturally & religiously expected to be virgins. One example can be found in Gen 24:43, where it speaks of a person being sought as a bride for Isaac. So in conclusion, read the books of Luke & Matt for reference of His genealogy.
5) Matt 2:15: Here, Matt claims that when Jesus returned with his parents from Egypt he fulfilled Hosea"s line: "Out of Egypt I called my son." It"s weird because Hosea doesn"t seem to be prophesying, rather, appears to be describing an event in Israel"s past. Another puzzle is that Hosea isn"t talking about an individual, much less a coming messiah. The son who was called out of Egypt is the nation of Israel. This has led many to assume that Matt wasn"t concerned with what Hosea meant. The truth is that, Matt correctly understands Hosea & wants his readers to see, in his usage of Hosea 11:1, that Jesus has recapitulated the history of Israel by retracting Israel"s steps up to the point they failed & then continued to obey & succeed in the mission Israel should have carried out". This sort of "exodus" was, in fact already present in Hosea. Matt therefore, simply taps into the exodus that Hosea describes: Israel was rescued from Egypt (Hosea 11:1), sinned, & would therefore, be sent back into Egypt (Hosea 11:5), before being delivered from Egypt once more (Hosea 11:10-11). And, this second Exodus would be led by a davidic king (Hosea 3:5; cf. Hosea 1:11). In sum: Matt says, that Jesus recapitulates Hosea 11:1, as Hosea 11:10-11 expected & all begins when Joseph, Jesus's adoptive father, takes Jesus & his family to Egypt to flee the wrath of King Herod.
6) G-d is ONE and people are forbidden to worship other gods AKA Jesus
The 2nd part to this line is quite troublesome & not Scriptural. No where does Jesus say I am God. Christians can say all they want but the Bible has the final word for them. So will you worship Jesus, or the one Jesus worshiped? One big problem the Christians have is that Jesus prayed, & had a God himself. This logically lets us conclude that Jesus can't be God. The right thing to do is worship & pray to the one Jesus prayed to. If Jesus told you that he had a God, would you honestly take Jesus as God? Answer is no. When Jesus prays to a God & said explicitly that he has a God therefore it is pretty ungodly of him to indicate his complete devotion to the one true God if he was God in the first place. Here are some points to consider:
1 Tim 2:5
In conclusion, study them all carefully, please before you answer. Thanks.
Your turn, my good friend :)
"No one can just walk around annulling laws that God had prescribed to Mankind at that time, but Christ did & that is worthy of investigation. "
This is actually one of the reason Jews did not accept Jesus. ""You must never eat any fat or blood. This is a permanent law for you, and it must be observed from generation to generation, wherever you live." Leviticus 3:17
"Be strong and very courageous. Be careful to obey all the law my servant Moses gave you; do not turn from it to the right or to the left, that you may be successful wherever you go. Joshua 1:7
Thus, Jesus, (the mainstream Christianity one at least) contradict what G-d told the Children of Israel.
"Just because the Christians you have interacted with aren't reflecting the standard that Jesus asks"
No, if you read my argument, Christian that follow the New Testament cannot see clearly if Jesus fulfilled those prophecies. They have the punishment of Hell if they reject him and the reward of Heaven if they don't doubt him. You have not answer the objection that I gave you. Most Christians I know read their bible, but because they believe in the new Testament and the new testament states that You are bless if you believe in him without proof. The new testament if full of example of those who accept him and those who deny him, and in the head of the believe, those who reject him go to hell.
No where does Jesus say I am God.
Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
I am not saying the New testament is consistent on who Jesus is, but look at Revelation 22, there is at least one undeniable quote that Jesus says he is god. Compare to Isaiah 41:4
"I, the LORD, am the first, and with the last. I am He.""
And again, someone claiming to be G-d should be rejected and that's why the Jews rejected him.
Note: I was a christian and read my Bible to and fro until I checked at the claims of Jesus. Then I realize they were not talking about him. None of them!
As a NON-Christian, I believe in the fullness of Christ Message and His claims and I have successfully shown you the verses in the Bible (with a bit of history) that prove the legitimacy of Christ's claims. So I speak for all my Christian brothers and sisters when I respectfully say that you may have read the Bible but you have not understood it. On top of that, if you reject Christ, then you reject the prefixes "New and Old" which are placed in front of the word Testament. So either you are a converted Jew who does not place a prefix on the word "Testament" such as "Old", or you are still a Christian who's spiritual vision is not clear due to misunderstandings generated in your own mind and you're refusing Christ's assistance. Let me say that once you truly understand what Christ says and fulfills, His Message and its purpose will be as clean and clear as the chime of a bell. So it's up to you. Let's begin:
1) Lev 3:17
When I said that no one can simply annul the Law of God, I meant that it would take a lot of proof to do such an act. But your response which states "this is actually one of the reasons Jews did not accept Jesus", I would have to say that you are repeating what the Jews had done in the time of Jesus, which helped no one.
In Lev 3:17, this is a clear Law that must not be broken and must not be tampered with, and later on it does say in Isa 66:17 that, "Those who consecrate and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following one who is among those who eat the flesh of pigs, rats and other unclean things--they will meet their end together with the one they follow, declares the LORD."
Mentioning this does not help your argument because even Christ reinforces this in the NT when He says in Matt 5:17-18 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."
And later on, He again says in Rom 3:31, "Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law."
So this was a notice to the Jews that they've veered off course and Christ has come to put them back on track. I could care less of what the average Christian does but as far as the Bible is concerned, Jesus says not a stroke of a pen will alter the Law until everything is accomplished, which was when Christ uttered on the cross "It is finished" (John 19:30). So the Law of God is not done away with and forgotten, nay it is restored to it's fullness once again. This was the role of the Messiah to bring people back on track.
2) "mainstream Christianity"
This is such an ignorant word. Who cares what mainstream Christianity does? You as an ex-Christian should know better than anyone that it is not our will that is important, but rather God's. Jesus knew this so why can't you? Read the Bible, apply the Message of Christ and don't follow what mainstream Christianity does. Don't even compare them to His Holiness Christ.
3) "Cannot see that Jesus fulfilled those prophecies"
Yea, and neither can you. I'm not here to debate whether a Christian can or can't look at the evidence and draw a sound conclusion, no. I'm here to debate and guide you about the legitimacy of Christ's claims as the Bible says it, not as the Christians say. So it's literally impossible to debate about whether a Christian does or doesn't look. We should be debating about the legitimacy of Christ's claims. So I don't care that the Christian community allegedly, can't see the fulfilled prophecies of Jesus Christ, because neither could you. Are you telling me that if they behaved properly then you wouldn't have lost faith in Christ? By talking about "them" constantly implies that the problem doesn't rest with Christ but rather the Christian community.
4) "Alpha and Omega"
Read the verse closely....Jesus never says that, God does. So let's have a look: "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty." So you see? It says the Lord God says, and not Jesus. The narrator of Revelations is John; so unless you're calling John God, then Jesus was not God because He had a God Himself.
5) "Revelations 22 Jesus says I am God"
Where in Rev 22 does it say that?...
6) "Isaiah 41:4"
Again, I see your argument as squirmish and irrelevant. This verse is in the OT and has nothing to do with Jesus but, everything to do with God. In this verse, we can see God speaking, not Jesus, not Moses, and certainly not anyone else. So I don't know how it's mention would help your argument in any way what so ever. So, your argument about this being the reason that the Jews rejected Jesus, is utterly baseless.
7) "I was a christian and read my Bible to and fro until I checked at the claims of Jesus. Then I realize they were not talking about him. None of them!"
Again, you may have read but you clearly did not study and with all due respect, your arguments are as weak as the air. If you truly read your Bible and wholeheartedly studied and understood it's verses, then you wouldn't be and "ex-Christian". So at this point in the argument, I'm starting to believe that rather than even reading it, you just skimmed through it, but that's not something I wish fully accept until the end of this debate. I told you once and I will tell you once more, Christ is the answer to Judaism's problems and is the Lighthouse of Divine Guidance to the Jews. It's up to you to know what that truly means.
In conclusion, we have to do what the Bible says and investigate the claims of others:
1 John 4:1, "Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
1 Thessalonians 5:20-21, "Do not treat prophecies with contempt, but examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good"
Matthew 7:7, "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you"
1 Corinthians 3:18, "Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise."
John 7:14-18, "About the middle of the feast Jesus went up into the temple and began teaching. The Jews therefore marveled, saying, "How is it that this man has learning, when he has never studied?" So Jesus answered them, "My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me. If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority. The one who speaks on his own authority seeks his own glory; but the one who seeks the glory of him who sent him is true, and in him there is no falsehood."
Mark 7:7-9, "In vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men." And he said to them, "You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition!"
1 John 1:6, "If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth."
Proverbs 14:18, "The simple inherit folly, but the prudent are crowned with knowledge."
1 Corinthians 2:1, "For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God."
2 Timothy 3:15
So the Bible says investigate...why can't you?
your turn, my friend :)
No, it does only said that I will have to prove that you cannot be neutral. Your argument was to prove that you are neutral when you look at the prophecies. Thus, what I wrote in the first round stands. You cannot be able to see and be neutral if Jesus fulfilled those prophecies.
My argument stands. Please show me that you are neutral when you look at those prophecies.
As per Revelation 22, Jesus is speaking
2 "And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last."[f]
14 Blessed are those who do His commandments,[g] that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But[h] outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star."
G-d does not speak in that passage at all.
One cannot be neutral AFTER reading the prophecies His Holiness Christ fulfilled. You either have to take the side of acceptance or rejection, and I respectfully say that you better have a good reason for either choice when facing God. I'll give you an example:
A father looses his ring and just before his son leaves to school, he asks him to keep an eye out for it. On the way back from school there are 2 scenarios:
SCENARIO A) The son is walking back from school when he suddenly sees a ring that could be his father's but decides to walk past it and head home. His father asks him if he has seen it, to which the son replies, "yes I saw a ring that looked like yours but I just didn't pick it up". The father asks, "why? It could've been mine", to which the son replies, "meh...wasn't my ring that's lost. You should've taken better care of it." The father at this point is frustrated to see that his son found a ring that look like his but didn't even care to pick it up and show him.
SCENARIO B) The son is walking back from school when he suddenly sees a ring that could be his father's and decides to pick it up. His father asks him if he has seen it, to which the son replies, "Yes! I found it and here you go!". To the son's disappointment the father tells him that it isn't his ring but gives him a hug, thanking him for his care and effort in looking for it.
Now, I ask you and anyone else who may be reading this, in concept which scenario is better? Scenario A shows us the careless of the son towards his father, and scenario B shows us that even though it was the wrong ring, the father still thanked him for putting time aside to look for it. Relating this back to Christ and His Message, if God asked you if you looked, will your response be like scenario A or scenario B, even though it could be wrong? Food for thought :)
2) "Rev 22:13"
These are said by Jesus but He did NOT imply Himself as the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last. This was unquestionably God speaking through Jesus, as God had done in:
Isaiah 41:4 = "Who has done this and carried it through, calling forth the generations from the beginning? I, the LORD--with the first of them and with the last--I am he."
Isaiah 44:6 = "This is what the LORD says-- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God."
Isaiah 48:12 = "Listen to me, Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last."
In Revelations 1:8, the same sequence of words (Alpha and Omega) is use for the fist time in the NT when it opens and says, ""I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty." So clearly, God is speaking and Jesus is not implying Himself by any means. The phrase "alpha and omega" shows us that God is Eternal, the Beginning and the End.
Just as a side note, the first letter of the Greek alphabet is Alpha and the last letter is Omega; This would be similar to referring to someone in English as the "A and Z" . So when Jesus is says Alpha and Omega, He clarifies by saying beginning and the end because Alpha and Omega are the beginning and the end of the Greek alphabet. Now why Greek? The first and last letters of the Greek alphabet were used because the New Testament (including the Book of Revelations), was originally written in Greek.
3) "Rev 22:14"
This is part of a prophecy that is being revealed to Jesus and does not help your argument in relation to the debate title.
4) "Rev 22:16"
Okay...how does sharing this, help you reinforce your Pro-side to this debate. My friend you have failed to produce any evidence in Revelations 22, where Jesus said "I am God"..You technically didn't fail because there is not reference to such a verse in the Bible and Jesus says no such thing.
In conclusion, your last 2 arguments veered off the point of defending your stance on this debate and you failed to produce any scriptural evidence that His Holiness Christ did not fulfill the prophecies of the OT. Jesus Christ has fulfilled all prophecies and I respectfully invite you to re-read the Bible and be very familiar with the prophecies of the OT. Remember that rejecting Christ after you had once accepted Him, means that you in fact reject the whole Bible and even God Himself. So if you love God, then you will show respect and love for His Messenger and revisit your decision on leaving Him, because He hasn't left you :)
A note to all my Christian brothers and sisters, I hope that as a non-Christian, I have done well in this debate and I hope I have represented you all just as well.
And a note to Pro: Thank you so much for this debate, I learned a lot and I hope I can debate with you further in the future.
Thank you and God Bless :)
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