The Instigator
CapAhab
Pro (for)
Winning
1 Points
The Contender
Vapeo
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Christians are NOT able to determine fairly if Jesus is really the True messiah

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
CapAhab
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/16/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 9 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 273 times Debate No: 86696
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (3)
Votes (2)

 

CapAhab

Pro

Round 1 - Opening Arguments Only (No rebuttals)
Round 2 - Rebuttal
Round 3 - Counter-Rebuttals
Round 4 - Counter-Rebuttals
Round 5 - Closing Arguments and Closing Statements

Please do not debate the prophecies themselves. You have to show that christians can be neutral when looking at the Hebrew Bible prophecies.

I will have to prove that Christians are unable to look at the old testament prophecies and kown if Jesus really fulfilled them.

Serious debates only

First, I would like to thank my opponent for this debate.

I would like to first say that most Christian accept Jesus as the Messiah before checking his claims of messiah-ship. Mostly they are raised as Christian or accept Jesus as their L-rd and saviour before studying the Bible. Thus, they accept the authority of the New Testament first before they examine if Jesus is really the messiah.

And what does the New testament say:

Jesus said to his disciples: "Things that cause people to stumble are bound to come, but woe to anyone through whom they come. It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble. Luke 17:1-2

So basically, it is better to commit suicide than doubting Jesus as the messiah.

And what is the consequence of such a denial, on top of being seen as a Judas by your family and friends who all believe in Jesus?
But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.

Hell. (And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night)

Furthermore, 1 John 2:2 says "Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist--denying the Father and the Son."

So if you deny Jesus, as per the new testament, you are an anti-Christ.

Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 1John 4:1-2

The new testament tells you you can test if someone is from G-d, does not allows one to test Jesus claims.

What else can I say? That as per the New Testament, it's all about believing. You have eternal life if you believe in the son. As Jesus said " "You believe because you have seen me. Blessed are those who believe without seeing me." John 20:29 And "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven" Matthew 18:3.

So a Christian is not ask to wonder if Jesus is really the messiah, but to accept it. If you have doubt, you should fight those doubts! So the Christian put the cart before the horse by accepting Jesus as god and saviour before really checking if he is as James 1 say "If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. "

So the good Christian who doubt if a prophecy is really fulfil must believe and have faith that Jesus is who he says he is, in Jesus name on top of that!

"He that answers a matter before he hears it, it is folly and shame unto him" Proverbs 18:3

Finally let examine Exodus 23:8 ""Do not accept a bribe, for a bribe blinds those who see and twists the words of the innocent."

This does not talk about Jesus, of course. But Christians who accept Jesus as their lord and saviour have the reward of Heaven as a bribe. On top of that they have the punishment of hell if they refuse Jesus as their saviour. This is, in a way equivalent to a bribe, thus they have been blinded and cannot see the Hebrew Scripture for what it really say.
Vapeo

Con

First, thanks to my opponent for bringing this topic up, and I think it will be interesting to discuss.

Secondly, my opponent has set them-self up for a semantics trap. Christians are able to do anything, there is no law stating that a Christian cannot look neutrally at a prophecy about Jesus.

However, I assume my opponent means that it is merely difficult or highly unlikely for Jesus Christ to have actually fulfilled the prophecy of the old testament Jews. In that regard, any Old testament prophecy that may still be fulfilled by Jesus is not a indictment against him. That established, I will only consider prophecies whose time periods have ended.

Firstly, we have to consider that Jesus himself was raised a JEW, and that his original disciples were mostly jews as well. You will recall, if you read Matthews, that many supposed prophecies are considered fulfilled by Jesus, according to his disciples. That said, the BOP is on my opponent to prove that Jesus did not actually fulfill what his disciples said he did. Essentially, my opponent must prove that Jesus did not actually exist, or that any historical evidence we have of him is untrustworthy, and most of it is lies.

I will give a list of prophecies that Jesus supposedly fulfilled, and my opponent should be ready to disprove that he did.
Also in regards to ability of Christians to be neutral when looking at old testament prophecy, I will concede that I have an inclination to believe it fulfilled in Jesus, as a Christian, but that inclination rests on convictions formed from prior experiences and evidence. Thus, I am not neutral in regards to picking a side, but I will ask a question. Are you neutral about 1+1= 2? Do simply take no sides? No, you either believe that 1+1=2, or you don't. Likewise, if reach a conclusion on old testament prophecy independent of being a Christian, and become Christian afterwards, it should not be said that I am not neutral, simply that I have no reason to be, or that I am mistaken.

(LIST OF PROPHECIES)

1. Gen. 3:15Seed of a woman (virgin birth) Fulfilled in Galatians 4:4-5, Matthew 1:18
2. Gen. 3:15He will bruise Satan's head Fulfilled in Hebrews 2:14, 1 John 3:8
3. Gen. 3:15Christ's heel would be bruised with nails on the cross Fulfilled in Matthew 27:35, Luke 24:39-40
4. Gen. 5:24The bodily ascension to heaven Fulfilled in Mark 16:19, Rev. 12:5
6. Gen. 12:3Seed of Abraham will bless all nations Fulfilled in Galatians 3:8, Acts 3:25, 26
7. Gen. 12:7The Promise made to Abraham's Seed Fulfilled in Galatians 3:16
8. Gen. 14:18A priest after the order of Melchizedek Fulfilled in Hebrews 6:20
9. Gen. 14:18King of Peace and Righteousness Fulfilled in Hebrews 7:2
10. Gen. 14:18The Last Supper foreshadowed Fulfilled in Matthew 26:26-29
12. Gen. 22:8The Lamb of God promised Fulfilled in John 1:29
13. Gen. 22:18As Isaac's seed, will bless all nations Fulfilled in Galatians 3:16
17. Gen. 49:10The time of His coming Fulfilled in Luke 2:1-7; Galatians 4:4
44. Deut. 18:18Sent by the Father to speak His wordJohn 8:28, 29
46. Deut. 21:23Cursed is he that hangs on a treeGalatians 3:10-13
48. Ruth 4:4-10Christ, our kinsman, has redeemed usEphesians 1:3-7
66. Psa. 2:7, 8The Crucifixion and Resurrection Acts 13:29-33
72. Psa. 16:10Was not to see corruption(physical) Acts 2:31, 13:35
73. Psa. 16:9-11Was to arise from the deadJohn 20:9
74. Psa. 17:15The resurrection predictedLuke 24:6
76. Psa. 22:1Forsaken because of sins of others2 Corinthians 5:21
77. Psa. 22:1"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"Matthew 27:46
78. Psa. 22:2Darkness upon Calvary for three hoursMatthew 27:45
79. Psa. 22:7They shoot out the lip and shake the headMatthew 27:39-44
80. Psa. 22:8"He trusted in God, let Him deliver Him"Matthew 27:43
81. Psa. 22:9-10Born the SaviourLuke 2:7
82. Psa. 22:12-13They seek His deathJohn 19:6
83. Psa. 22:14His blood poured out when they pierced His sideJohn 19:34
84. Psa. 22:14, 15Suffered agony on CalvaryMark 15:34-37
85. Psa. 22:15He thirstedJohn 19:28
86. Psa. 22:16They pierced His hands and His feetJohn 19:34, 37; 20:27
87. Psa. 22:17, 18Stripped Him before the stares of menLuke 23:34, 35
88. Psa. 22:18They parted His garmentsJohn 19:23, 24
89. Psa. 22:20, 21He committed Himself to GodLuke 23:46
(From http://www.accordingtothescriptures.org... )

And lastly, I accept this debate.
Debate Round No. 1
CapAhab

Pro

As I clearly said in the first round, do not argue the prophecies themselves. I have showed that Christians are asked to be bias, please show why they can be neutral.

Thank you
Vapeo

Con

I did show how Christians could be neutral. Simply by analyzing basic facts, we can be neutral in regards to unfulfilled prophecies. But not already fulfilled ones, part of Christian beliefs. Asking a Christian to be skeptical of their own beliefs makes no sense. Its like asking a mathematician to believe 1+2=5

See my first argument and actually read it.
Debate Round No. 2
CapAhab

Pro

"Asking a Christian to be skeptical of their own beliefs makes no sense. Its like asking a mathematician to believe 1+2=5"
NO, if Jesus is the messiah, we are required to worship him, but if not you are committing idolatry! Only if you look neutrally at the Hebrew Bible prophecies can you know that Jesus is really the messiah. But if you believe the NT to be inspired, then you only believe without proofs!

1. Gen. 3:15Seed of a woman (virgin birth) Fulfilled in Galatians 4:4-5, Matthew 1:18
WOW, but all humans are born of a woman! Women can have seeds just as men, see Genesis 16:10
Then the Angel of the Lord said to her, "I will multiply your descendants (seed) exceedingly,

2. Gen. 3:15He will bruise Satan's head Fulfilled in Hebrews 2:14, 1 John 3:8
Second coming (has not happened yet.
The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you. King James Bible And the God of peace shall bruise Satan
http://www.debate.org...

3. Gen. 3:15Christ's heel would be bruised with nails on the cross Fulfilled in Matthew 27:35, Luke 24:39-40
It does not talk about a cross or Jesus.

4. Gen. 5:24The bodily ascension to heaven Fulfilled in Mark 16:19, Rev. 12:5
Really, read the text... it is not a prophecy!

6. Gen. 12:3Seed of Abraham will bless all nations Fulfilled in Galatians 3:8, Acts 3:25, 26
Seed (means descendants).
http://www.debate.org...

7. Gen. 12:7The Promise made to Abraham's Seed Fulfilled in Galatians 3:16
http://www.debate.org...

8. Gen. 14:18A priest after the order of Melchizedek Fulfilled in Hebrews 6:20
This has nothing to do with prophecies. Melkizedek never offered sin sacrifices.

9. Gen. 14:18King of Peace and Righteousness Fulfilled in Hebrews 7:2
This is a serious case of bible twisting. This is not a prophecy.

10. Gen. 14:18The Last Supper foreshadowed Fulfilled in Matthew 26:26-29
This is a serious case of bible twisting. This is not a prophecy.

12. Gen. 22:8The Lamb of God promised Fulfilled in John 1:29
Shadows and types. Not a prophecy!

13. Gen. 22:18As Isaac's seed, will bless all nations Fulfilled in Galatians 3:16
yes, the Jews will bless all nations. And again, anyone form Isaac could be the messiah.

17. Gen. 49:10The time of His coming Fulfilled in Luke 2:1-7; Galatians 4:4
This is messianic, it does not mean it's Jesus. Jesus never ruled, thus we can conclude it was not him.

44. Deut. 18:18Sent by the Father to speak His wordJohn 8:28, 29
No, it Mohammed... No Mohammed, it Joseph Smith!

46. Deut. 21:23 Cursed is he that hangs on a treeGalatians 3:10-13
This is not the meaning of the original Hebrew. The original Hebrew mean that you should not leave a dead body to defile the land.

But you shall not leave his body on the pole overnight. Rather, you shall bury him on that [same] day, for a hanging [human corpse] is a blasphemy of God, and you shall not defile your land, which the Lord, your God, is giving you as an inheritance.

48. Ruth 4:4-10Christ, our kinsman, has redeemed usEphesians 1:3-7
Not a prophecy

66. Psa. 2:7, 8The Crucifixion and Resurrection Acts 13:29-33
Jesus was not king over all the earth!

72. Psa. 16:10Was not to see corruption(physical) Acts 2:31, 13:35
My goodness is nothing apart from You." I don't see Jesus saying that!

73. Psa. 16:9-11Was to arise from the deadJohn 20:9

74. Psa. 17:15The resurrection predictedLuke 24:6
As for me, I will see Your face in righteousness;
I shall be satisfied when I awake in Your likeness.
That does not talk about a resurrection!

Psalm 22 has nothing to do with Jesus.
76. Psa. 22:1Forsaken because of sins of others2 Corinthians 5:21
77. Psa. 22:1"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"Matthew 27:46
78. Psa. 22:2Darkness upon Calvary for three hoursMatthew 27:45
79. Psa. 22:7They shoot out the lip and shake the headMatthew 27:39-44
80. Psa. 22:8"He trusted in God, let Him deliver Him"Matthew 27:43
81. Psa. 22:9-10Born the SaviourLuke 2:7
82. Psa. 22:12-13They seek His deathJohn 19:6
83. Psa. 22:14His blood poured out when they pierced His sideJohn 19:34
84. Psa. 22:14, 15Suffered agony on CalvaryMark 15:34-37
85. Psa. 22:15He thirstedJohn 19:28
86. Psa. 22:16They pierced His hands and His feetJohn 19:34, 37; 20:27
The original Hebrew says "Like a lion". Thus why would that be messianic? It's a Psalm of David and he share his anguish when Saul was persecuting him.

87. Psa. 22:17, 18Stripped Him before the stares of menLuke 23:34, 35
88. Psa. 22:18They parted His garmentsJohn 19:23, 24
89. Psa. 22:20, 21He committed Himself to GodLuke 23:46

That's what I say... Christian use the "Jesus fulfilled 365 prophecies, and they feel happy with that. But they don't look if it really fits Jesus!
Vapeo

Con

Well if you hold a particular interpretation, it is hard to be convinced.

Nothing I said was invalidated, because Christians don't need to look neutrally at anything if they are right.

The real question is are we???

So it indeed is difficult for a Christian to suddenly stop believing in Jesus if they did their HW and are convinced.
That doesn't mean they can't be neutral, but it doesn't make sense to.
We don't find the basis of all of Christian doctrine in the OT, so it is not the only way to exploring Christianity.

If i find evidences to believe that Jesus lived, and wasn't lying, and the ancient manuscripts his followers wrote were true, then I will believe in Jesus regardless of the OT. You can be a skeptic, or a believer, but why be neutral when we can have an opinion?

That's like signing up for Debate.org and never debating.

Ironically....
Debate Round No. 3
CapAhab

Pro

"Nothing I said was invalidated, because Christians don't need to look neutrally at anything if they are right."

If you are right,... well that true. But if Jesus is not the messiah and not god, then you have good reason in the Hebrew Bible to be worry. You are committing idolatry. You shall not have other gods (AKA Jesus) before Me. Exodus 20

That's why you should first look at the fact and then take your decision.

But for Christians, it's the opposite, they accept Jesus first, then try to prove it from the "old" testament.

"We don't find the basis of all of Christian doctrine in the OT, so it is not the only way to exploring Christianity."
Christianity can only be proven true in the light of the Hebrew Bible. You may explore a false belief all your life. Only if Jesus fulfilled the prophecies that Christian can know that Jesus was really the messiah. If not, then you are believing a lie.

"If i find evidences to believe that Jesus lived"
If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) (JESUS)"and let us worship them," you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul.

"You can be a sceptic, or a believer,"
You should be a sceptic. Why don't you believe in everything everybody is telling you? The NT asks you to be septic about doctrines and people. The only problem, it does not go as far as asking you to check if Jesus was really the messiah. The NT only wants you to blindly believe Jesus. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

"but why be neutral when we can have an opinion?"
I am not neutral. I believe that Jesus was a false messiah, a false prophet and a false god. The Hebrew G-d is the true G-d.
Vapeo

Con

I agree with alot of things you said, but I think there is sufficient evidence to believe that Jesus existed, and further evidence to indicate most likely he wasn't lying about who he was.

But technically, it still is merely possible to be neutral about Jesus, but extremely unnecessary, unless you are unconvinced. Even as a Christian.
Debate Round No. 4
CapAhab

Pro

This is what it is, unless someone is neutral and examine the "prophecies" of Jesus before you become a christian, you cannot be neutral. "The L-rd our G-d the L-rd is ONE" Deuteronomy 6:4. And G-d ask us to reject any other gods, including Jesus.

But giving your allegiance to a god before knowing if he is really god is foolishness.

He that giveth answer before he heareth, It is folly and confusion unto him. Proverbs 18:13.
Vapeo

Con

Vapeo forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by Vapeo 9 months ago
Vapeo
I did not voluntarily forfeit, and I do not believe that should be a reason for voting me down. I am seriously disappointed in the voters right now. Sad to see.
Posted by RBaker 9 months ago
RBaker
You stated: "You have to show that christians can be neutral..." This is an impossible requirement. No one, including you, can be neutral. There is no such thing as neutrality in human thought. Everyone has a foundational belief system through which they interpret life (a worldview). Therefore everyone is predisposed to to reject the claims of Jesus because everyone is born unqualified/unable/unwilling to do that which is necessary to be accepted by God because of our being, by nature, descended from fallen Adam. So only by the sovereign act of God regenerating fallen man, opening his mind, freeing his will, predisposing him to receive the truth, will he embrace the truth of the Christian faith. There is no neutral position.
Posted by condeelmaster 9 months ago
condeelmaster
"as per the New Testament, it's all about believing. " Same as the old one....
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by RBaker 9 months ago
RBaker
CapAhabVapeoTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Pathetic debate. Both sides equally demonstrated the fact that unbiased neutrality is impossible which Pro stipulated as a necessary requirement. Everyone has a worldview in which they interpret their existence in the world around them. So the debate was a non-starter at the outset let alone sophomoric in argumentation.
Vote Placed by U.n 9 months ago
U.n
CapAhabVapeoTied
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Total points awarded:10 
Reasons for voting decision: This debate opened strong in Round 1 and slowly deteriorated. Voting left on conduct due to the forfeit.