The Instigator
logiboy123
Pro (for)
Losing
8 Points
The Contender
Microsuck
Con (against)
Winning
11 Points

Christians cannot be reasonably assured of eternal salvation.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
Microsuck
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/17/2012 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,153 times Debate No: 23665
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (10)
Votes (3)

 

logiboy123

Pro

Thank you for taking the time to review this debate. This is my first, so I beg your indulgence when I inevitably make mistakes. I'm open to anyone taking up this challenge.

The Bible states the following in Ezekiel 28:14-19;

You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings. By your many sins and dishonest trade you have desecrated your sanctuaries. So I made a fire come out from you, and it consumed you, and I reduced you to ashes on the ground in the sight of all who were watching. All the nations who knew you are appalled at you; you have come to a horrible end and will be no more.

My argument is as follows;

1. God who is perfect created a perfect creatures; Lucifer, Adam & Eve.

2. Even though these created beings were perfect, still they sinned and rebelled against God.

3. Once a Christian goes to heaven they a free from sin and imperfection.

4. Given the potential for eternity in heaven, it seems reasonable to assume that at some point each person will sin and rebel against God.
Microsuck

Con

Thank you for this opportunity to debate. Although I am not a Christian, I will accept this debate and argue from a Christian standpoint that Christians can be reasonably assured of eternal salvation.

C1: What is reasonable?

This is an automatic con vote. What is reasonable is subejctive, as someone in the comment sections already pointed out. What pro needs to do is determin an objective manner of resonable.

C2: What the Bible says.


John 6:38-40, "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 “And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”


John 10:27-28, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand."


Here, Jesus promised that we will have eternal life. In John 6, he promised that anyone who beholds and believes in Him (Jesus) will have eternal life. Moreover, in John 10 Jesus promise that those who follow Me (Jesus) will be granted eternal life.


Romans 8:31-39 - What then shall we say about these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 Indeed, he who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, freely give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is the one who will condemn? Christ is the one who died (and more than that, he was raised), who is at the right hand of God, and who also is interceding for us. 35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will trouble, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written, “ For your sake we encounter death all day long; we were considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” 37 No, in all these things we have complete victory through him who loved us! 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor heavenly rulers, nor things that are present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

"The declaration in Romans 8:34, “Christ is the one who died,” is given in answer to the questions of verses 31-33, and in anticipation to the questions and declarations of verses 35-39. The goal of verse 34, however, is to show the absolute security of the believer. Two reasons are stated in relation to God the Son." [1]

John 6:37:40 - “All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 “And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day,"


WHAT ABOUT APOSTATES?

There are no such thing as apostates in Christianity.

19 aThey went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; butthey went out, bso that 1it would be shown that they all are not of us. (1 John 2:19)

So here, we know that if those who are apostates were really a Christian, they would have remained with us. So, we can draw the conclusion that no true Christian would leave Christianity.

--->ADDRESSING MY OPPONENT'S CLAIMS<--

1. God who is perfect created a perfect creatures; Lucifer, Adam & Eve.

Agreed.

2. Even though these created beings were perfect, still they sinned and rebelled against God.

They sinned and rebelled based upon their own free will. Both still had a chance to repent.

3. Once a Christian goes to heaven they a free from sin and imperfection.

Accepted.

4. Given the potential for eternity in heaven, it seems reasonable to assume that at some point each person will sin and rebel against God.

Every person, from the moment they are born, is in constant rebellion against God. Because Jesus has given us the victory, when we are saved, we are free from the rebellion and become at peace with God the Father through Jesus His Son.

Sure, Christians may backslide on occasion, but will never apostasize (see above). It is imparitive to note that the occasional backsliding does not mean that you are no longer saved. God will convict you of your sins and in some occasion will kill you out of His infinite mercy to prevent His Name from being blasphemed.


_______________________

Sources

1. http://bible.org...;



Debate Round No. 1
logiboy123

Pro

Thank you Microsuck for your participation. Quite honestly you have one of the best avatars I have ever seen.

In regards to the "reasonably" word in my topic; if permissible I would like to simply remove it entirely and update the debate to "Christians cannot be assured of eternal salvation.", further I realise I should have defined each of my words clearly. If it is not to late I shall do that now;

Christians - A follower of the person and teachings of Christ, accepting that; Jesus was the Son of God, who lived a sinless life, who died on a cross in atonement for mankind's sins in order that God and mankind could be reconciled.

Assured - Satisfied as to the truth or certainty of a matter.

Salvation - Deliverance from the power and effects of sin.

Please note that my opponent has accepted my first 3 points without argument. Further he has turned several Bible verses against me and I shall now address them.

John 6:38-40 "that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life"
This scripture deals with finding salvation, not how or if you can lose it. Adam and Eve could have existed eternally in the Garden of Eden had they not sinned, but once they did sin they condemned all mankind and the Earth into a sinful state.

John 10:27-28 "and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand"
Unless of course if I choose to walk away from God by sinning and or rebelling. Something that would appear to be a near certainty given that once you are in heaven and residing with God you now have an entire eternity to eventually screw up.

Romans 8:31-39 "nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord"
Nothing in these passages address the concept of our choosing to rebel and the circumstances and/or consequences for doing so.

For the sake of convenience I accept the position of apostates. This has no bearing on the argument either way.

My opponent addresses point 4 by pointing out how one obtains salvation, but fails to address the point that the Bible has clearly shown that it is possible to lose salvation, ergo eternal salvation is not assured. The matter of debate before us is not the when, who, how or why of obtaining salvation. Rather it is the point that Christians cannot be assured of eternal salvation when all can see clearly and from the bible that created beings have lost their salvation.

A sinful choice in Heaven would be far greater a crime then here and now on Earth. What excuse could be given at this time for failure? At least on earth we can say we are weak, we are tempted, we are flawed. Once in Heaven no excuse would be available and eternal damnation would be the result of the first mishap great or small. Anything less then perfection is just that; simply not good enough to meet the standards of God. Given an infinite amount of time and the knowledge that perfect beings can sin I see no way that my opponent can persuade you that Christians cannot be assured of eternal salvation.

How can the God of the Christians claim to be good if he knows already that all of mankind will eventually lose eternal salvation given enough time? This bring into doubt the veracity of God's claims that he is good, just and merciful. If he does not fully contain those attributes then he is a liar and nothing that God says from that point could be counted as true, including any statements the Bible makes about salvation.

Once again, thank you for reading and participating in this debate. I look forward to my opponents reply.
Microsuck

Con

I agree with the new resolution as "Christians cannot be assured of Salvation." Thank you for your complement on my avatar, by the way.

I agree with the definitions.

John 6:38-40

Let's look at the context of the chapter as it is important for determining the correct interpretation.

“All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 “And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day,"
Jesus says the following:
  1. All that the Father gives Me shall come to me - A reference to the Christians.
  2. I will certainly not cast him out - In other words, Jesus promised that no matter what, the Christians will not be cast from Jesus.
  3. Jesus says that he came down from heaven to do the will of Him that sent me - What is this will? All that he has given me, none shall be lost; but will be raised up.
  4. EVERYONE WHO BEHOLDS THE SON AND BELIEVES IN HIM MAY HAVE ETERNAL LIFE
Jesus made this promise.

The context shows it is much more than how to be saved, but it is a promise to those that are saved.

Matt Slick from CARM notes:

"We can easily draw the conclusion that the will of the Father is that all who were given to the Son (v. 39) will not be lost and will be raised on the last day. But, the common objection is that the will of the Father is not always accomplished. In other words, it is the will of the Father that none be lost, but since his will is not always accomplished, there will be people who were saved but become lost. This might seem a possible interpretation, but when we look at the next verse we see it doesn't work. In verse 40 Jesus continues to tell us what the will of the Father is by saying that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in him will have eternal life and that Jesus would raise him up on the last day."

John 10:27-28

My partner adds to the text which is uncalled for. "Unless of course if I choose to walk away from God by sinning and or rebelling. Something that would appear to be a near certainty given that once you are in heaven and residing with God you now have an entire eternity to eventually screw up." We already determined that it is impossible.

19 aThey went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; butthey went out, bso that 1it would be shown that they all are not of us. (1 John 2:19)

My partner drops his original argument. As such, I urge a con vote.


_____________________

Sources

1. http://carm.org...;
Debate Round No. 2
logiboy123

Pro

I'm probably meant to be wrapping up my arguments at this stage, but I'm afraid I will need to present new ones.

My opponent has reiterated his points from John 6:38-40. I assert that this portion of Biblical scripture is talking about gaining salvation. Whilst on the surface it may look like a promise is being made that salvation cannot be lost, but this cannot be true in light of the following two points;

1) Hebrews 10:26-31
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgement and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

2) Lucifer, Adam and Eve were all perfect and sinless creatures that made the choice to sin. I do not feel my opponent has done anything to explain or deal with this particular issue. Instead he tries to reassure everyone via scripture that their salvation is secure. This is not a debate on Calvinism vs Arminianism where the issue is if you can lose your salvation whilst here on Earth. This debate is about the eternity existing 100 billion years from now and if salvation can be lost at that time.

3) Revelation 20:1-3 followed by Revelation 20:7-8
And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations any more until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth - Gog and Magog - and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.

So the scene in the above picture is that peace has existed in Heaven and Earth for 1000 years, all have bowed down and worshiped God as the only true King and salvation is assured for all. Then Satan is loosed to deceive as many people as he can. So all the people that choose to fight along side Satan were once saved and now they no longer are. How does this stack up with the promise of Jesus in John chapters 6 and 10?

My presumption (which I should have spelled out more clearly) was that a Christian has made it through life, made it through Armageddon, made it through the tribulation and again through the final battle between good and evil. At some point after this, with an eternity on your hands how could you not at some point sin once again? It wasn't my intention to focus on this point, but my opponent made the choice to use scriptures reassuring one of salvation, thinking about it now what other evidence could have have given? none I think.

I thank you all for your patience with me, especially my opponent who has done a good job of making me think and do research. I wasn't intending on such a Bible centric debate and if that is not to your taste then I sincerely apologise.
Microsuck

Con

Thank you for a fun debate. It is a shame that you had to bring up new arguments in the last round.

1) Hebrews 10:26-31

The context goes much deeper than that. Let's look at parallel passages. Let's look at the entire passage (note, I am using ESV):


For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said,
“Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired,
but a body have you prepared for me;
in burnt offerings and sin offerings
you have taken no pleasure.
Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do your will, O God,
as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.’”
When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,
“This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws on their hearts,
and write them on their minds,”
then he adds,
“I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”
Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.
Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
But recall the former days when, after you were enlightened, you endured a hard struggle with sufferings, sometimes being publicly exposed to reproach and affliction, and sometimes being partners with those so treated. For you had compassion on those in prison, and you joyfully accepted the plundering of your property, since you knew that you yourselves had a better possession and an abiding one. Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised. For,
“Yet a little while,
and the coming one will come and will not delay;
but my righteous one shall live by faith,
and if he shrinks back,
my soul has no pleasure in him.”
But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.

(Hebrews 10 ESV)




The context does not say we can lose our salvation. Rather, it talks about people professing to be Christians who are not really Christians.

" if Hebrews 10:26-31 referred to any willful sin at all, it sinks his case, because for those who sinned in this way it says, "no sacrifice for sins is left". Rather, these verses refer to apostasy; those who received the gospel, were a part of the church for a while, but fell away and trusted something else, such as Judaism, for their salvation." [1]


3) Yes, Satan will be let loose after the 1000 years. There will be people who are born during the 1000 year reign of Christ who will need Christ as their saviour. Secondly, people theorize that unsaved people may be in the milennium kingdom - those who survivved armageddon and the tribulation.

Isaiah 60:22 (the context seems to be the millennium)
A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the LORD will hasten it in his time.

Matthew 3:9
And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Isaiah 14:1-2 For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob. [2] And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.

Zechariah 14:9-19 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.... [16] And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. [17] And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. [19] This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

CONCLUSION

None of my partner's references tell us we can lose salvation. My partner hasn't answered any of my verses saying you cannot. As such, vote con.




___________

Source

1. http://www.biblequery.org...;

Debate Round No. 3
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by YYW 2 years ago
YYW
Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.
Posted by bombsawayboy 2 years ago
bombsawayboy
Even if god came down on a space ship with jesus and E.T. and santa claus, we can never have true assurance. Nothing is ever truely concrete.
Posted by logiboy123 2 years ago
logiboy123
My second to last paragraph should have been "Given an infinite amount of time and the knowledge that perfect beings can sin I see no way that my opponent can persuade you that Christians CAN be assured of eternal salvation.". Sorry for the confusion.
Posted by logiboy123 2 years ago
logiboy123
@ InVinoVeritas

And you are welcome to raise that point should you accept the debate. ;-)
Posted by InVinoVeritas 2 years ago
InVinoVeritas
Reasonableness is subjective.
Posted by logiboy123 2 years ago
logiboy123
@ConservativePolitico

The framework for the argument is in regards to eternity. The portion of the Bible you reference states a set time and place and is limited in scope. After Satan roams free "for a little while" he is again locked up. My question relates to the time following after this.
Posted by logiboy123 2 years ago
logiboy123
They are all examples of perfect created beings that eventually sinned. In the case of Lucifer "pride was found in him" in the case of Adam & Eve they were led into sin. Nevertheless I feel it is a legitimate question.
Posted by ConservativePolitico 2 years ago
ConservativePolitico
This isn't even a debate.

It says in Revelations that people will be free from sin from 1000 years but then the Devil must be let free once more to maintain balance.

So yes, there will be potential for future Rebellion in the Kingdom of God.

Easy win for Pro using Scripture.
Posted by Cobo 2 years ago
Cobo
I have no idea why you grouped Lucifer with Adam and eve since he got kicked out of heaven long before they screwed up.
I want to take this to try my hand at religious debates, but idk...Will take it tomorrow if no one accepts
Posted by frozen_eclipse 2 years ago
frozen_eclipse
wow...never thought about it but its quite reasonable
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by 1dustpelt 2 years ago
1dustpelt
logiboy123MicrosuckTied
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Total points awarded:52 
Reasons for voting decision: Counter vb below
Vote Placed by ras2000 2 years ago
ras2000
logiboy123MicrosuckTied
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Total points awarded:25 
Reasons for voting decision: con is right
Vote Placed by KRFournier 2 years ago
KRFournier
logiboy123MicrosuckTied
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Total points awarded:14 
Reasons for voting decision: Losing salvation after entering into Heaven? I failed to see Pro make the leap from Scripture to the remote possibility of losing salvation in Heaven. Conduct to Con for Pro's new arguments in final round. Spelling and Grammar to Pro for Con's teensy text in final round.