The Instigator
desk19
Con (against)
Losing
13 Points
The Contender
Tatarize
Pro (for)
Winning
25 Points

Christopher Columbus found america

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/11/2008 Category: Education
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 6,101 times Debate No: 2564
Debate Rounds (2)
Comments (6)
Votes (10)

 

desk19

Con

I believe that Christopher Columbus did not find America in 1498 although the Scandinavians found it 500 years before Christopher Columbus (the viking era) was even born. In the year 986 Bjarni Herjolfsson left Norway to go to Iceland, where he then found out that his father was on a ship commanded by Erik The Red to colonize a huge land situated to the west and would be called "Greenland".

One of Erik The Red's son, Leif Erikson was interested of the story Bjarni Herjolfsson had told so he and Erik the Red took 35 men left in the search for the land Bjarni had found. Leif first got to the Baffin Islands (North Eastern Canada), Going south they found the forested land now known as Labrador. A few days later the vikings found a even better territory. They built houses and lived there. The land was named Vinlandia meaning the wine land. They stayed there until they thought they had enough wine then returned to their home country Greenland.

In the 60's and 70's in L'Anse Aux Meadows village (Newfoundland, archaeologists found remains of houses dated back 1000 years (time of the vikings). In the 90's a danish researcher found a polished stone coming from a Viking Craft.

We have proof that the vikings were at one point there before Christopher Columbus. There is no proof whatsoever that Christopher Columbus had found America before the vikings.
Tatarize

Pro

They aren't mutually exclusive.

Christopher Columbus found America. We have historical records that he existed and that he actually traveled to the continents. His first voyage was bouncing around some of the islands but his his second, third, and fourth voyages took him to the mainland.

The fact is quite well established that Leif Erikson also found America. There's some interesting suggestions that the Chinese found it too. And it's exceedingly likely that the native Americans crossing the Bering Strait (it ices over and you can walk) also found America.

Your central claim is mistaken. Simply establishing Erikson's discovery doesn't negate the topic at hand. Plenty of people found America a number of time. It's actually quite large and people bump into it. Columbus was the first European to bring the information to the attention of Western Europe. Which is actually why when he found America, it's a bit more important to history than when Erikson found it.

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There's a lot of myths about Columbus which are plainly false. He wasn't some great unorthodox believer in a round Earth unlike those stuffy European thinkers of his day. In fact, most people believed the Earth was round. The difference in opinion was to the circumference of the planet. Most people at the time believed that there was an "ocean sea" to the west and by calculating the distance east to the Indies subtracting that from the circumference of the planet you could find how far east the Indies were. The thinkers in Europe calculated it to be about 11,000 miles (actually really close) whereas Columbus believed it to be about 3,000 miles by making really crappy estimates as to the circumference of the Earth as well as the distance east to the Indies. This is the reason he sailed west and thought he was in the West Indies when he was not.

The assumption that there was nothing but a massive "ocean sea" was wrong. Columbus was given leave to travel west with three stocked ships (in order to buy drugs) and found America. Ferdinand and Isabella forced out the Moors. As a consequence they had a lot of people addicted to opium and no supply (the Moors were their supplier). The Muslims closed the route to the east and made access harder and so even a fool's quest with some minor potential was worth a shot. This is why all the other powers at the time scoffed at Columbus: he was wrong, his plan was stupid, built with wishful thinking and willfully bad calculations. The assumption of the "ocean sea" was mistaken. Columbus actually died thinking he made it to the Indies, the thinkers in Europe quickly figured out their mistake. Columbus died a loser.

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All of this, however, is a moot point, Christopher Columbus *DID* discover America. Regardless of other people making the same discovery this is *still* true. It is not mutually exclusive. Leif Erikson (Erik's son, the Son of Erik the Red / surnames worked like that / hence all the Johnson's and Peterson's etc still around after they stopped doing that) found America in the year 1000, Columbus found America in 1492. -- Columbus found America.

QED.
Debate Round No. 1
desk19

Con

Archeoligists have found eaten chickens, stone houses and viking remains. So please tell me why the vikings have their leftovers there? Thats proves that obviously they were there before Christopher Columbus.
Tatarize

Pro

I never argued that Erikson didn't find America prior to Columbus finding America. I argued that Columbus did find America. Though he may have been in the third or fourth group to do so (after the Native Americans, Chinese, and Icelanders).

Columbus found America. That's absolutely true. He journeyed to the outlying islands on his first journey as well as to the mainland during his later trips.

I'm not suggesting that Erikson didn't find America. I am suggesting that finding America is not a mutually exclusive proposition. That without any discussion between the parties they both managed to find it. It's really big and was found several times before the knowledge that it was there was widespread (you can't exactly find something you know is there).

Columbus found America.
Debate Round No. 2
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by mindjob 9 years ago
mindjob
Very nice. From now on, tatarize will be known as slick willy.
Posted by mrqwerty 9 years ago
mrqwerty
Very good use of semantics Tatarize!

I felt that you argued effectively that one could "find" America as long as you didn't know it was there to begin with.
Posted by Miserlou 9 years ago
Miserlou
But can you really give either of them credit for discovering something which was already inhabited by people?
Posted by Logical-Master 9 years ago
Logical-Master
Wait, that came out wrong. Eh, nevermind. Discount what I've said.
Posted by Logical-Master 9 years ago
Logical-Master
This topic is definately false. Finding is not the equivalent to Discovering.
Posted by turner72 9 years ago
turner72
Agreed on the Christopher Columbus not finding America thing. For the record, he never even landed in America. He sailed around the Carribean Islands thinking they were the Indies, but never landed on mainland America. Just thought I'd say this. Yeah...
10 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by Tatarize 7 years ago
Tatarize
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Vote Placed by Logical-Master 9 years ago
Logical-Master
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Vote Placed by Persuasion 9 years ago
Persuasion
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Vote Placed by solo 9 years ago
solo
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Vote Placed by Idontcare 9 years ago
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Vote Placed by mindjob 9 years ago
mindjob
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Vote Placed by mrqwerty 9 years ago
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Vote Placed by Miserlou 9 years ago
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Vote Placed by desk19 9 years ago
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Vote Placed by FunkeeMonk91 9 years ago
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