The Instigator
Apophthegmata
Pro (for)
The Contender
BryanMullinsNOCHRISTMAS2
Con (against)

Church Fathers DID NOT BELIVE in soul immortality OR Hell/heaven instantly after Death.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/7/2018 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 week ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 168 times Debate No: 106460
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (4)
Votes (0)

 

Apophthegmata

Pro

In this debate, i will support that the Church Fathers DID NOT believe in Soul Immortality, and that they DID NOT believe that when someone dies, goes instantly to heaven or hell.

Starting with this quote:

"God shows shall be taken away from us, when He shall raise all men from the dead, and appoint some to be incorruptible, immortal, and free from sorrow in the everlasting and imperishable kingdom; but shall send others away to the everlasting punishment of fire." [1]


Note that Justin said that the wicked people will go to eternal fire, however:

[i] - It will happen AFTER the resurrection!

[ii] - They (wicked people) will not be immortal, for "immortals" Justin says that only the righteous will be!

Justin's vision of the "eternal fire" was not an immortalist view, but he believed that the wicked would be thrown into the fire only after they resurrect, and this torment in the fire could not be eternal, because both incorruptibility as to freedom from pain are attributes exclusive to the righteous. Immortalists do not observe it, because they, unfortunately, think that the expression "eternal fire" is enough for considering Justin as an immortalist.

Notes:
[1] Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 117
BryanMullinsNOCHRISTMAS2

Con

Let's start with what you just said. "In this debate, i will support that the Church Fathers DID NOT believe in Soul Immortality, and that they DID NOT believe that when someone dies, goes instantly to heaven or hell.

Starting with this quote:

"God shows shall be taken away from us, when He shall raise all men from the dead, and appoint some to be incorruptible, immortal, and free from sorrow in the everlasting and imperishable kingdom; but shall send others away to the everlasting punishment of fire." What does this even mean?
Does it mean that you believe that this "GOD" which does not exist, could make zombies come to life, the bible is illegitimate.

You may go on and on about quotes from the bible and prove your point, but that would be egregious and dishonest to prove your point. I would be the millionth person to tell you that zombies do not exist, but doesn't mean that "Church Fathers" which are all dead by now don't believe in "Heaven" or "Hell"

Your next argument, if you please.
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Debate Round No. 4
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by BryanMullinsNOCHRISTMAS2 1 week ago
BryanMullinsNOCHRISTMAS2
OK, this is a retarded debate.
Posted by ANANIGMA 1 week ago
ANANIGMA
could be an interesting debate, I would debate but I think I agree with Apophthegmata here.

My understanding is the bodily death is the First Death. Which after we die, our Soul rests and when the Father returns to harvest; some are given immortality and the others are sent off to the Second Death (Soul Death).
Posted by dsjpk5 2 weeks ago
dsjpk5
This is a very interesting debate subject. What time period do you suggest was the period if "church fathers"?
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 2 weeks ago
FollowerofChrist1955
Apophthegmata
The Sanhedrin and Pharisees didn't BELIEVE IN CHRIST either.

The point being, that it will never be about the beliefs of Men, but the will of God. Humanity has always leaned on their own understanding, where God is concerned. This s evidenced by the 43,000 offshoots of Christianity currently in the World.

God offers Salvation to all and the opportunity of Sonship. As is obvious the majority choose salvation only, by openly refusing to die to themselves. 1 Corinthians 3:15 discusses these and their loss. The Church fathers beliefs was their own. What is amazing is that the entire time God offers a complete thourough understanding to anyone who by an act of will, forsakes themselves. These are given the understanding of the disciples, a thing extremely rare, but available to all, by a simple act of submission.

It is most incredible that 90% of Christians will never reach this level!

I would have accepted this debate, except that it is unimportant as a topic, as it has no bearing in the REALITY of God or the Kingdom itself, merely demonstrating the same pattern pf the religious of THIS era.

In Jesus day these existed in the sects of the Pharisees as well, THEY WERE the religious of the day back THEN!

Few of the pharisees became saved, as it is today. The religious of today believe in the god of SELF, not of the Bible. Church Fathers? A title ... nothing more, it means nothing, just as the title Christian means nothing Today. Liars, cheats and Murderers, call themselves christians. The saved demonstrate what others merely CALL themselves.
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