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Kylar
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The Contender
H2O2
Pro (for)
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Church of England ordaining Female Bishops

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/9/2015 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 442 times Debate No: 71372
Debate Rounds (5)
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Kylar

Con

Hello everyone it's Kylar :). I have a really controversial debate topic that I want to debate with someone. I am against the ordination of women as bishops in the Church of England, but I want to know what the other side has for arguments in favor of it. I want a good debate, preferably with someone in the United Kingdom, however, you can debate me from anywhere, that is fine too :). Please accept and let's have a good debate :). Good luck and I can't wait to debate with you :).
Round I: Acceptance and opening statements
H2O2

Pro

I think that it was not their choice to be born female and therefore not ordaining them would be wrong, also I don't see the problem with a female bishop. I am from the uk like you asked
Debate Round No. 1
Kylar

Con

Thank you so much for accepting this debate :). I look forward to a great debate with you. Here are my opening arguments from a very reputable source.

The debate about whether a woman is permitted to be a pastor continues to intensify. Although there is scant historical precedent for it, many today claim that either men or women may be pastors. TThe question at hand is not whether women are of equal value to men, nor is it whether they can minister effectively. It is, rather, the nature of their ministry in the church. More specifically, it is permissible for a woman to serve as senior pastor?

The place to begin in this, as in other biblical questions, is to ask, "What does the Bible say?" Even a cursory reading of the pertinent texts reveals three important observations: 1) there were no known women pastors in New Testament times; 2) none of the instructions regarding church order include instructions for women pastors; and 3) some texts on church order explicitly forbid women to occupy that role. Paul, in 1 Tim. 2:12, states, "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man" (NIV) . This verse is introduced by a statement that women should learn "in silence," and it is followed by the statement that "she must be silent." The word silence means being possessed by a calmness of spirit and peaceful disposition. It is set as the opposite to "teaching" and "having authority over a man." Paul does not expect that women will not or can not learn or teach (compare with Titus 2:3-5 and 2 Tim. 1:5; 3:14,15). He states that they cannot teach or have authority over men. Thus, they cannot have a pastoral position, or perform the pastoral function, for that puts them in authority over men.

It is logical to conclude, therefore, that the issue would not be raised today if discussion of the parameters for pastoral leadership were confined to the biblical record.

Biblical Contexts

Biblical exegesis requires sensitivity to the context of a passage. When Scripture is taken out of its context, faulty conclusions and blurred perspectives result. Two matters impact this discussion significantly - the issues of literary context and cultural context. Let us first examine literary context. Each biblical writer directed his word to specific issues. The task of the biblical expositor is to determine the precise nature of those issues.

An example of the importance of correct contextual analysis occurs in Galatians 3:28. In explaining the meaning of justification, Paul said that in Christ there is "neither Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female." The outstanding social characteristic of Christianity is that ethnic ("Jew nor Greek"), economic ("bond nor free"), and gender ("male nor female") distinctions have no bearing on salvation, nor upon equal standing among all Christians. It is obvious that the context of the statement is its explanation of Some have pointed to Galatians 3:28 as justification for women serving as pastors. However, it is a misuse of Scripture to produce ecclesiastical patterns from soteriological passages! While Paul clearly affirms the equality of men and women in salvation, he equally and just as clearly affirms the priority of men in church leadership. There is no conflict. The contextual issue is crucial for an accurate exposition in the Scriptures teach a hierarchy of responsibilities. The wife is to submit to her husband (Eph. 5:22). Some insist the introductory words "submitting yourselves to one another" (Eph. 5:21) somehow tempers the command for wives to submit, but the explicit teaching of the passage is that wives are to submit; husbands are to love. This interpretation is confirmed by the clear parallel passage in Colossians (3:18), and the teaching of Peter (1 Peter 3:1), where submission is specifically commanded of the wife. The Greek term used for submission (hypotasso) suggests a voluntary submission based on a commitment to proper order. It does not imply an organization based on inability or inferiority. Indeed, this term seems to have been chosen by Paul to honor the unique value of the wife. In a beautiful tension, he affirms both value and order, both equality and subordination.

Blended Patterns

The models for family and church interrelate. They do so for two reasons. First, these are the two God-ordained institutions in which we find the spiritual resources for full Christian maturity. Second, these two institutions have unique ability to reveal God to a world blinded by sin. Family and church share the central place in God's economy.

The Scriptures frequently interrelate the family and the church. Paul clearly tied the two together in 1 Corinthians 11:2-16. He addressed a disruption caused by some of the women in the church over hairstyles (often understood as "head covering"). In a carefully reasoned argument, Paul expressed a theological conviction. If a married woman will not proudly wear a symbol of her right relationship to her husband, her familial "head," she forfeits her privileges of praying and prophesying in church fellowships. Her ministry in the church is directly linked to her submission to her husband. Paul's words are forceful. Married women have no right to participate in the church service if they wish to assume the prerogative of family headship and/or if they wish to act as though they were single rather than married. Here proper family order is a prerequisite to a woman's participation in the church.

Paul addressed men similarly in the pastoral epistles. He argued that no man has the privilege of leading the church as bishop (pastor) unless he meets certain qualifications. At least one relates to family order: the pastor must "rule his family well" (1 Tim. 3:4; Tit. 1:6). Again, Paul's conclusion is clear and forceful. If a married man does not relate to his family properly, he forfeits his right to be pastor of the church. As before, proper family order is a prerequisite to pastoral leadership. The Bible intentionally interrelates church and family for both husbands and wives. The God-ordained leadership structure in the church is reflected in the family, and vice versa.

This understanding has implications that bear directly on the question of women pastors. Proper family relationships are a prerequisite to ministry in the church. Proper relationships require the husband to function as the head and the wife to willingly submit to his leadership. In the church, wives, submissive to their husbands, are not to "have authority or be the teacher" over men (1 Timothy 2:12). This precludes a woman serving as pastor, for to do so would be to take the place of headship.

Summary: Should Women Be Pastors?

We have seen that the explicit texts of Scripture forbid women to serve as pastors. The biblical model for family roles supports that stance as well. It is not a matter of inferiority or worth, for all persons are of equal worth in their persons, reflecting the essential equality of the Godhead. It is a matter of function. There is no compelling reason to encourage women as pastors, and there are many reasons not to do so.

Source: http://www.sbclife.net...
Therefore, it is not biblical for women to be bishops in the church of england

H2O2

Pro

That is a very good point but a lot of things said by the bible have not been enforced for thousands of years like "This is what the Lord Almighty says... "Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey."" (1 Samuel 15:3) or happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us " he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks." (Psalm 137:9) these verses did not influence our lives but you propose that one should.
Debate Round No. 2
Kylar

Con

Thank you for this debate :), now to post my arguments
More women are training for, and entering into, the pastoral ministry than in any other time in the history of the church. The reaction to this relatively new phenomenon ranges from bitter outrage to hearty endorsement. Quite often, the discussions and debates over the propriety of a woman pastor are contentious and divisive ones. Such consequences, of course, are inevitable when the issues reduce to one of commitment to the Scriptures themselves as constituting the very truth of God. High regard for the integrity, sufficiency, authority, relevancy, and inerrancy of the Scriptures naturally results in a sense of obligation and necessity to acquire the accurate interpretation of those Scriptures, as well as to promote the faithful practice of the same. Compelling sociological factors, which have been engendered by the feminist movement, have pressed the church to address and rethink the general issue of the role of women in the church, as well as the specific issue of the propriety of women becoming pastors. My aim in this paper is simply to present a Biblical view on the pastoral ministry, with the specific question of concern being: Should women be elders or pastors in the church? In discussing such a controversial and potentially explosive issue, the watchword surely must be: "Speaking the truth in love." A BIBLICAL EXEGESIS ON THE ELDERSHIP The predominant term used for the spiritual leaders in the church is elder (presbuteros). It occurs 14 times in this capacity, as opposed to the more frequently used term today 'pastor' (poimne) which occurs only once in this same capacity. The other term which is used for the spiritual leader is 'overseer' (episkopos) which occurs 4 times in this capacity. These three designations are used interchangeably in the New Testament for the same ecclesiastical office (cf. Acts 20:28; 1 Pet. 5:1, 2). Elders (bishops, pastors) are representatives and ambassadors of Jesus Christ for the church (cf. 2 Cor. 5:18-21). In addition, they are stewards, for they have been entrusted with the welfare of the church (Tit. 1:7). Their primary responsibility is to care for (epimeleomai) the members of the spiritual body of Christ (1 Tim. 3:5), for which they will have to render an account (Jas. 3:1; Heb. 13:17). Elders have two main duties or functions in the exercise of their care for the church. First, they are to oversee the membership. The apostle Peter exhorts the elders to "exercise oversight" (episkopeo) over the flock of God (1 Pet. 5:2). That is, elders are to superintend the affairs and activities of the church. They are the guardians of Christ for His heritage. They are to protect the whole membership from false doctrine and heresy (Acts 20:28). Elders are to exercise this management in an attitude of readiness, eagerness, and humility, without "lording it over those allotted to [their] charge, but proving to be examples to the flock" (1 Pet. 5:3). The second duty or function of elders is to shepherd the membership. The apostle Paul exhorts the Ephesian elders "to shepherd [poimaino] the church of God which He purchased with His own blood" (Acts 20:28). That is, elders are to attend or minister to the (spiritual) needs of the body of Christ. This duty can be compared to that of a sheepherder who tends a flock of sheep. The sheepherder guides the sheep to water and pasture; he shelters and guards them; grooms and shears them. Jesus Christ likens His people to a flock of sheep (John 10:7-16). As sheep, believers require guidance and nourishment. Christ Himself is the chief Shepherd (1 Pet. 2:25) Who "shall guide [His own] to springs of the water of life" (Rev. 7:17). Elders, who are the undershepherds of the chief Shepherd, have a similar responsibility. This figurative tending or shepherding of the sheep is literally and primarily seen in the teaching and instruction of spiritual truth. Elders tend to the spiritual needs of the flock of Christ by preaching and ministering the Word of God Mark records, "And when He [Jesus] went ashore, He saw a great multitude, and He felt compassion for them because they were like sheep without a shepherd; and He began to teach them many things" (Mk. 6:34). Accordingly, Christ has provided "pastors [poimne] and teachers [didaskalos]" for His spiritual sheep (Eph. 4:11). Christ has not provided pastors in addition to teachers, but pastors who are teachers. In Ephesians 4:11, Paul is speaking of only one office. Thus Paul instructs Timothy that elders must be "able to teach" (1 Tim. 2:2). All elders must have the ability or gift to teach. THE ELDER'S ROLE The role of an elder in the church, which is patterned on the role of the Lord Jesus (see 1 Pet. 2:25 - poimne, episkopos), is basically that of an overseer and shepherd (or teacher). He has an administrative function to perform, as well as a didactic one. The Scriptural witness to this fact is conclusive. For instance, Paul addresses the Ephesian elders and reminds them that "the Holy Spirit [had] made [them] overseers, to shepherd the church of God" (Acts 20:28). Further, he requests of the Thessalonian believers to "appreciate those who diligently labor among [them], and have charge over [them] in the Lord and give [them] instruction" (1 Th. 5:12). Peter exhorts elders to "shepherd the flock of God . . .exercising oversight" (1 Pet. 5:2). Even the writer to the Jewish Christians exhorts, "Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you; and considering the result of their conduct, imitate their faith" (Heb. 13:7). REASONS AGAINST WOMEN BEING PASTORS With this background exegetical teaching on the pastorate, I now address more particularly the issue of the propriety of woman pastors or elders. The Scriptures unquestionably teach that women are not to be elders. I will present three reasons to support this contention. 1. Eldership Qualifications First, the specific qualifications outlined for those aspiring to the pastorate or eldership strongly imply that such candidates are to be men (1 Tim. 3:1-7; Tit. 1:5-9). The overseer or elder is required to be the "husband of one wife" (1 Tim. 3:2; Tit. 1:6). Furthermore, he must be a person who "manages (proistemi) his own household well (kalos)," which is prerequisite for taking care of the church (1 Tim. 3:4,5). The management of the household, according to the Scriptures, is primarily the man's, rather than the woman's, responsibility. The man is considered the 'head' in the home under Christ (cf. 1 Cor. 11:3). Management of the household by men is further substantiated when the similar qualification for deacons is examined. It reads, "Let husbands of only one wife, and good managers [lit, managing well - kalos proistemi] of their children and their own households" (1 Tim. 3:12). This statement leaves no doubt as to who is to manage the household. Consistency, therefore, demands that the similar qualification for those aspiring to be pastors must also refer to men and not women. 2. Women Prohibited The second reason why women are not to be pastors or elders is because the Scriptures specifically prohibit such action. The apostle Paul, in communicating to Timothy the policies, practices, and principles which are to govern "how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God" (1 Tim. 3:15) states: But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being quite deceived, fell into transgression (1 Tim. 2:12-14). This prohibition is not directed against teaching or exercising authority (i.e., having rule) in the abstract or universal sense, but rather teaching and exercising authority within the specific context of the church. Paul furnishes the rationale or ground for such a prohibition.
source: http://www.bibleviews.com...;
H2O2

Pro

H2O2 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
Kylar

Con

Thank you for the debate :), it has been wonderful thus far.
My arguments are these for Round IV
Ordaining female bishops is not biblical as I have previously stated. It will create a schism in the church between traditionalists and progressives, and that would be terrible.
I anticipate Round V, thank you for the debate
H2O2

Pro

Would not ordaining females cause a divide also, due to different regulations it might also cause the church to divide. As for biblical reasons would not this passage prove against "Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you shall be forgiven. And judge not, and ye shall not be judged; condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned."(Luke 6:37) so you would be judging females by denying them the ability to be pastors.
Debate Round No. 4
Kylar

Con

I thank my wothy opponett for an enjoyable debate :), it has been a very good debate so far. I now will post my Round V arguments.
I do not doubt that some women could be very good Bishops in the Church of England and Pastors.
However, the Bible makes it clear women are not to be pastors, and I abide by that. I am not judging them, but this is what the Bible says on it. I have made my case with verses on this in the earlier rounds, and look at the Church of England right now. There are some people that do hold to the Bible in the Church of England, while there are those that want female bishops. Think about it: it could split the church.
Therefore, they should not ordain female bishops. Thanks for the debate :).
H2O2

Pro

There are many interpretations of the bible and although you don't think you are judging them I fear God may take it a different way.
Debate Round No. 5
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