The Instigator
buletman
Con (against)
Winning
77 Points
The Contender
jemual
Pro (for)
Losing
51 Points

Circumsicion is necessary and ethical.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/3/2007 Category: Health
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 4,383 times Debate No: 137
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (22)
Votes (39)

 

buletman

Con

I believe that circumcision is genital mutilation. It has been shown that it is an effective way to prevent certain diseases, but proper hygiene is just as effective. So this then leads me to ask why take away a male's foreskin before he is even allowed to make the decision himself? He will never know what it was like to have those nerve endings, never know what it's like to have a non-mutilated penis.

Circumcision on males does not create impotence, so what is the matter with having a few less nerve endings. My point is this: a woman can still get pregnant without having to feel pleasure. Should we take off every woman's clitoris when she is born? Obviously, a much different debate is being generated in that statement, but it should be compared to this, because as I started off my argument, I believe this is genital mutilation, and a complete disregard for an individual's opinion when it comes to their own body.

I didn't ask for my foreskin to be taken off, it was just stripped away from me at birth. It is not necessary, as long as proper hygiene habits are established at an early age, and very unethical, because we don't ask the boy, we just take it.

I have spoken to many friends and family, and many disagree with me, especially sexually active women who call an uncircumcised penis "gross." It has even been theorized that the foreskin plays a role in creating a better intimate connection between a man and a woman, with the foreskin latching onto the labia majora and minora, and this creates a more "pleasurable experience."

Of course, this is theory, and I have no personal experience, as I am one of the mutilated.

Is this some Freudian scream for attention; do I feel as though I am not having the most pleasurable sex I could have had, and is life all about sex? These are other debates. So please leave this out of any further argument.
jemual

Pro

Good day Mr. Buletman, Before starting my issues and arguments on this debate. Being the pro, I would like to clarify few things.

You are in the "con" side, meaning you will reject that circumcision is necessary and ethical. Why did you give me some points like having proper hygiene and prevent diseases (correct me if I'm wrong. I just got confused about your issues…having some issues with you saying that I must leave it out. You, having your arguments answered by yourself, how can I clash anyway?)

I believe that circumcision is a must and moral because:

1.)If you are circumcised, you will feel more confident because being uncircumcised is a "no no" for girls because if you will pass adolescent without being circumcised, you will be surely teased because it is our tradition that every person must be circumcised. Girls are more attracted to circumcised persons rather than the others because girls feel more secure and less embarrassment knowing that your spouse is circumcised. (Why do you think that your parents circumcised you? it is because they know that circumcision is not only a tradition, it is a requirement)

2.)It can prevent major diseases because scientifically, circumcised ones are 30% more protected than the ones that aren't circumcised.

3.)Having higher percent of proper hygiene because when you urinate, some of the urine get stuck in the foreskin and will give a urine smell in your pants and it gives better circulation because urine comes out without any obstruction.

4.)you said that hot women said that it is not gross being uncircumcised, circumcision is not about pleasure and sex, it is about the scientific reasons, traditions, and all the points that I have given.

5.)It is a tradition since 3000 BC and it became one of the major requirements for a male because females are feeling more progressive having a circumcised husband. It a ceremony to be accepted by Christ.

6.)I believe that it is not genital mutilation because doctors have found a way of circumcising children without pain. Getting circumcised since birth is another reason because you can't feel the pain because you're still a baby. Doctors put anesthesia to their patients so that they will not feel pain during the operation.

7.)Circumcision for short gives you higher self esteem.

Since you haven't placed any parameter, I would gladly put some. This proposition will only be covering all the places where circumcision is implemented.

…and with that I end my speech.

That is all for now. (Sorry for any errors/wrong spelled words)
Debate Round No. 1
buletman

Con

Thank you for accepting my debate - I was beginning to think I was too convincing for my own good :)

I stated the hygiene point because yes - studies have indeed shown to help prevent certain diseases by means of circumcision. However, same such studies have also shown that with proper hygiene - that is pulling back foreskin and washing the penis - can be just as preventative. This means that circumcision is not necessary for physical health reasons.

For mental health reasons, it is only "necessary" because of our norms that our society has put in place. If in 3000 bce (before current era) we decided to remove every woman's clitoris at birth, would it not be the social norm? Of course, this is hypothetical - so no one can truly know - but I believe my point is that social norms are created by habit and lack of knowledge. The lack of knowledge in this case is that hygiene can be just as effective.

So as you numbered your points, I will number my responses to such said points, even though some of it will be repetition.

1. Social norms, addressed above: if a woman thinks it's a no-no, then I feel sorry for her because from some research suggests an uncircumcised penis enhances physical pleasure by both parties. Do social norms mandate necessity? This is a question that I must ask as well, then, and we must consider.

2. Yes, if you decide to be neglectful of hygiene, then circumcision may be beneficial in reducing disease - but it does not mandate a necessity.

3. When one urinates with an uncircumcised penis, one pulls the foreskin back to urinate - so point is null and void. (obviously, this can vary on individual basis, but the idea is that urination does not have an absolute effect whether one is circumcised or not).

4. You state that I have "said that hot women" - I never said anything about "hot women" - I did say "Sexually Active Women" - did you read that as "Sexually Attractive Women," perhaps? And in fact, I did say they did say it was "gross" - proving the point that it is a social norm. But again, the point of the debate was not whether it is a social norm, but rather if there is a necessity, and because I have yet to see a necessary point, if it remains ethical to continue such genital mutilation.

5. Progressive is subjective, and is always changing. When the moors were in place in Spain before the first inquisition, there were many scientifically progressive institutions in place that were eradicated by the inquisition. It is point of view in progression. And I'm sorry sir, but I do not want to interject religion into this argument, because whether or not god exists can not truly play a role as to whether or not circumcision is necessary. But since I must, I will quote the new testament: St. Paul's letter to the Galatians states, "In Christ, circumcision availeth nothing."

Not only this- but why would god "Create" us with foreskin and then ask us to take it off? That doesn't seem like good "planning" or "intelligent design" ... seems like a hiccup in the design if you choose to believe this higher power really designates us to have to pray on sundays and go to communion, etc. etc.

(For further insight on my beliefs: I am a god fearing man - but there is no point in a religion where there are doctrines set for ritual - there is but one golden rule: treat others how you would want to be treated. No other ritual is mandated to live - as we see many non-worshipers who still lead full lives)

6. A general MYTH about circumcision is that babies feel no pain. We now know that babies do feel pain, very acutely. Babies scream, choke, hold their breath, and vomit during the circumcision process.

Another myth is that it's more painful if done later. Even with anesthesia, at any age it is a painful procedure with the potential for serious complications.

7. Higher self-esteem because the norms of society produce differences among man. Differences among man has always caused there to be outcasts. If you are stating a necessity for everyone to be the same, then you are on the same level as Hitler who deemed a race of perfection - all the same.

I do not understand what you mean by parameters, but yes, in order for this discussion to be "necessary," circumcision should be happening for us to discuss whether or not itself is necessary or ethical.

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

Chad
jemual

Pro

I think and realized that your proposition is written being not debatable; I would like to suggest such proposition stated as:

Resolved, that circumcision should made practice

I think it makes a better proposition because if you make it necessary how can I counter you when each person has his own human rights, if this will be the proposition. I can debate with you because it is not mandatory to all to be circumcised. They can have their rights in either choosing to get circumcised or not.

Feeling fresher and cleaner is a reason why circumcision must be practiced. If you push to urinate, if you push it back, not all the urine went out (all of us knows that) a certain amount of urine with be released and will make the foreskin smelly. If a person doesn't pull and don't care about hygiene, how will his hygiene stable? This is a good idea so that no extra effort of cleaning and pushing and pulling.

It does not mandate, it could only prevent such diseases and increase hygiene which leads to higher self esteem.

If you are a God fearing man or such, try reading Genesis 17 (circumcision, a sign of covenant). It is a sign that you are a part of God's family or what you call from God's generation.
When you were circumcised, did you felt pain? IF your still a baby, even if you choke and etc., it is pain but not the one that hurts you totally and the doctors are not that stupid in doing operations. They know what they are doing.
I mean circumcision in the process. You can't feel any pain because of the anesthetic chemical. After your operation, you will be given some prescriptions to do, so, you can't feel pain but you will only feel uneasiness because of your condition.

…and with that I end my speech…

(I thought that i was forfeited but luckily i was not, i will be expecting for your response)
Debate Round No. 2
buletman

Con

Ok, you're right, this is a pretty pointless debate because in a sense, nothing in life is necessary. However, I am trying to make a point that this is one of the most unnecessary things man has come to practice.

If God wanted us circumcised, why not do it when he created us? Why mandate we take something earthly and apply it to our bodies when our bodies are supposed to be of divine creation; an intellectual design?

Random ramble follows (This has nothing to do with debate, but at least will give insight to how I view the universe):
Which, if you've ever studied the body, it is really amazing how it works, and really makes you consider if someone could design the machine that is our bodies, or if it was all left up to evolution (yes, it was, which is even more awesome if you can wrap your head around the fact that everything is a reaction to the forces of the universe: gravity, strong force, weak force, electro-magnetic force [which, if you truly believe, as I do, then it leads to only one possible outcome, that there is no free will, because every action was caused by some other action, therefore, it all started with the first action])

In practicing this we have molded minds to think it is the right thing to do. It makes people who want to continue this practice to reiterate statements that are factual about something that would seem to make it good, but people also only seem to consider the good when it comes to these things.

Id Est - as I have said, and agreed when everyone else states it - it does decrease risk of disease by allowing for greater ability to have hygiene (even though, it is perfectly possible for an uncircumcised man to have such same hygiene, he must take a little extra care).

However - this is just one benefit. Those who argue for circumcision fail to realize any drawbacks to this procedure. Such as: no surgical operation = no chance for any complications of such surgery; the glans of the penis will remain in it's softer, more natural state, allowing for a more pleasurable sexual experience, as well as preventing any chaffing of an area that would normally never experience such chaffing (this is called "Meatal Ulceration" and occurs in 30% of infants who are circumcised), as well as prevent the opening of the urethra from "shrinking" due to constant irritation that the foreskin would have protected from (known as "meatal stenosis").

If I have not at least opened your eyes to seeing that there are indeed losses occurred more than "just the foreskin," then at least take this into consideration:

A 1991 survey of 301 males seeking restoration information showed almost 70% of those circumcised as infants or as children resent their parents for their circumcision.

If we cannot agree that circumcision should be stopped, at least agree that maybe it should be left up to the individual, and not have a permanent physical procedure done at the time when the individual is not fully conscious and sentient about his body.

This is the ethical part of the debate that we have very rarely touched on, my fault as much as yours. I believe that if you believe in abortion, you're a hypocrite to believe in circumcision. I believe that if you believe that genital mutilation is bad (in the case when woman's gonads are altered), then you are a hypocrite to belittle circumcision as nothing more than a common medical procedure. I also believe that a man should have the right to decide whether or not he wants to partake in this operation before it becomes permanent. And I also believe that maybe, JUST MAYBE, if there were no circumcised men, there may be less wars and murders, because sex might feel that much better that we'd be having intercourse much more and fighting much less (Okay, so this one is pretty far fetched, but you get my point - why do something that is not necessary that has much more disadvantages than advantages?)

Thank you again for taking to time to debate me Jemual. I appreciate your arguments, and again hope that I have, if not persuaded you that it is unnecessary and unethical, then at the very least made you aware of the drawbacks and the possible risks to circumcision.
jemual

Pro

Clarification;
Unnecessary thing that was made practice? Mr. or Ms. Buletman, I believe that remarking it as an unnecessary thing is not true because:

You can not tell God what to do, He has his own purpose and plans for that thing which is circumcise to be a sign of a covenant with Abraham. He made a test if Abraham would follow His orders of making every male in their family circumcised. He was as loyal as ever to God so God found more favor in Abraham. Our bodies are termed as Divine creation and the one that you said Intellectual design, the book (specifically from the book of Psalms) tells us that we are the Temple of the Holy spirit, we should not drink and be merry and etc. (negative things) so we need to take care of our body but circumcision is different, it is allowed by God for us to do, it is not vices.
I don't see any relevance to the topic the part when you described the human body. Our body is amazing, no doubt it can do a lot of things but doesn't this body was made by God and circumcision came from God. Even it was made manly, God required it for Abraham, He is like creating an another amazing thing but he made it through a medium called us.

Foreskin gets thicker when age increases, pubic hairs appear, and such requirement for the maintenance is termed as MORE EXTRA CARE. Why have uncircumcised when you can have circumcision with no extra care for preventing those diseases and increasing hygiene?

Doctors nowadays and even Nurses are highly experienced and excellent in small operations called circumcision. They want a male to have proper circumcision, so, in 1970s they studied more about circumcision and they made some modern equipment that would make the circumcision process secured.
As what I said, Circumcision is not about pleasurable sex, it is about how you love your spouse and treating them nicely. If you love that person and you married her, you did not circumcise just because you want pleasurable sex? So, you just loved your spouse because you wanted to have sex with her. Circumcision are for many reasons, if your circumcised, can you have no pleasurable sex? Of course you can.

We cannot demand a person in being circumcised, he can exercise his freedom of speech and action. I can't really talk about your facts, if your facts are true, please send me a link where you got it. Thnx.
Abortion is totally different from Circumcision. Abortion for what I believe is killing a person but do you kill a person? A foreskin? Killing a foreskin? Think about it Mr/ Ms. Buletman.

Conclusion;
I in the pro side strongly agree that Circumcision must made practice because:

1.Prevention of Diseases are a lot easier and also that hygiene increases

2.Social norms are unchangeable because they know for a fact that uncircumcised penis are dirty and they feel insecure. It is called a Social norm because it was practiced even before.

3.Circumcision came from God and we must follow His orders to what he ordered Abraham to do.

4.Even when you are circumcised, you can have pleasurable sex, why want to have more pleasure? So you assume that you are a total pervert after all?

5.Circumcision nowadays, are made safe for every male who undergo with this type of operation.

And with that I end my speech…

Thanks Mr/Ms. Buletman for an nice debate, Hoping that we would still be friends even when voting period approaches and I'm hoping that we can debate each other again. Arigatou Guzaimas…Have a good day..
Debate Round No. 3
22 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by MikelaC2596 4 years ago
MikelaC2596
I prefer uncircimsized men, they do make for a closer sensation. And jemual ignored a ton of facts, even when buletman mentioned being a man and having a penis jemual was unsure of gender.
Posted by jemual 9 years ago
jemual
I suggested that the proposition I will refer will be:

Resolved, that circumcision must made practice

So that I could counter him. Every person has his own rights so I suggested this proposition.
Posted by willact723 9 years ago
willact723
Good debate. While I regret the fact that the Aff had to debate a topic and prove something is necessary (which is INCREDIBILY difficult), but the Aff did accept this debate. So this has to be a clear Neg victory.
Posted by buletman 9 years ago
buletman
wcoal, thank you, I didn't even see your post when I was writing mine. I'm glad one person understands the purpose of a debate.
Posted by buletman 9 years ago
buletman
Jemual, we can be friends, because you're not a voter (at least, not THE voters), but I just get frustrated when people vote on the debates with their feeling, and not their debate. To quote "ineffiblesquirrel" from another debate (Abortion is right):

I would say that the reason it has so many votes is because people don't look at the debate. They just vote on what their opinion is, even though the point of a debate is to have two people provide accurate and logical evidence for two sides of a story. Then (logically) a person should vote on whomever provided the best answer...but alas, this is a website dominated by narrow-minded, inexperienced, and bias people. :/

Good day to you, Jemual.
Posted by wcoal 9 years ago
wcoal
Just a purely objective view: based on arguments presented, buletman is the clear winner. Those who vote otherwise should remove themselves from this website, mmk, because they clearly do not understand what a debate is.

But to add my point of view-izzle - I do not think circumcision is wrong, just a personal decision everyone should make - a decision should be made with "one's consent" as buletman put it, but in this case, we cannot get consent, unless we wait till the infant is older [I don't see anything wrong with that]

PEACE LOVE LIFE
Posted by jemual 9 years ago
jemual
This is a comment side not a debate arena sir. Our debate is finished and if you want to continue it through comments i'm sorry but I don't need to answer you anymore. I have an another debate that I am studying. Sorry if I let you angry or something.

It is in the hands of the voters on which side they will be clinging. You cannot fill this comment area only for defeating me and winning. This is only the spreading of ideas and I don't want this to end in a fight.

Sir, please do understand. Thanks
Posted by jemual 9 years ago
jemual
I know that religion must not be stated but I was just carried away, you continued the religious side so I had to counter that.

Abortion is not even close to Circumcision. Abortion is KILLING the fetus but circumcision is NOT KILLING but only removing the foreskin. Parents did such thing as circumcision because they want their child to not only be accepted by the people in their environment but also to stay clean.

Mr. Buletman, please, I just wanted to debate with you, not win. I would only like to express what I wanted to say.

Hope we can be friends even when we take part in the voting period. No grudges please.
Posted by buletman 9 years ago
buletman
--CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS COMMENT--
Is it because it didn't say it in the bible? If so - I'm sorry, but for a debate, that again, is based on logic, deduction, and reason, you cannot use the bible as a factual text - unless of course your argument is that circumcision is necessary for Religious purposes - which is ABSOLUTELY FINE - but it is not necessary in terms of health, and the majority of USA born infants who experience circumcision, do so NOT for religious reasons, and this is why I brought the debate up.

Most people do not take into consideration that what they are doing is mutilating their son without his consent. I do not understand how you can't understand this simple fact.

If that is not unethical, I do NOT know what is? You say Abortion is killing, correct? Well, if we ASKED the baby if it wanted to be aborted - it couldn't say YES or NO, could it? So, by same logic, we can't ASK a baby whether or not it wants to be circumcised. So in today's society, we leave it up to the parents - the pregnant woman may choose to get an abortion, whether or not YOU agree with it. The new mother may choose to have her son circumcised, whether or not I agree with it. But I believe, just as you do with abortion, that circumcision is unnecessary, and unethical.

With that said, I again urge the voters to look at the arguments, and whether or not the opponent actually addressed all the issues that were brought up - because to be honest, Jemual did not address all of my issues, did not disprove any of my statements, and I have addressed ALL of his points, even numbered them in the same fashion that he wrote them.

I hope you all have a good day, and take into consideration what you do with your newborn infants.
Posted by buletman 9 years ago
buletman
Jemual, I'm sorry my friend, but you are extremely ignorant, and one-sided, because you take the word of the bible as fact, when fact, based on reason and logic, must be assumed to have been scientifically proven that it is true. You, just as I, cannot say that God wanted us to circumcise, or that God didn't want us circumcised - you absolutely CANNOT say that the bible says God wanted us to, so therefore God wanted us to, because the bible is not FACT, as far as SCIENCE is concerned. This debate was about whether or not SCIENTIFICALLY it is necessary. That is, whether or not you need to have it done to live a happier and healthier life, as well as whether or not it is ethical to ALTER a man's body WITHOUT HIS CONSENT. Why did you never choose to address this issue?

My facts are facts, and some sources for you are (the very sources I used):
http://www.norm.org...
http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org...
http://www.nocirc.org...
http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org...

I ask you, sir, whether or not you can provide sources saying that the bible is CLEAR FACT AND EVIDENCE that God wanted us to circumcise our men. You cannot, you can only have FAITH that God wanted us. But this is the modern age where we must question everything we do.

I urge the voters to respond to the debate, and not to how they feel. This is a debate, and regardless of what you believe, it should be who argued with more logic, more reason, and who better disproved the other persons' arguments.

I often agreed with Jemual in that yes - the hygiene thing is true - it is EASIER to maintain hygiene with a circumcised penis - but it in no way decrees that an uncircumcised penis is DIRTY. You need to understand, Jemual, that it can be cleaned and taken care of just as much as a woman's vagina, which, more so than an uncircumcised penis, has many folds of skin, allowing for much greater area of growth of bacteria - yet, we do NOT take away these folds of skin - why? You tell me, Jemual.
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