The Instigator
Zimasilk
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Richardsonalj
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Classrooms and schools should be segregated

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/16/2015 Category: Education
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 911 times Debate No: 79801
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (11)
Votes (0)

 

Zimasilk

Pro

Today my 9th grade son expressed his frustration about how much time is "wasted" in school because his teachers are constantly tending to misbehaved, needy, and low performing kids. He is convinced he could save everyone a lot of time by staying home and completing high school on his own. My son is bright, serious about his education, completes his work, behaves in class, and does well socially. He should be a "poster child" for public education, right? Wrong! He is who our educational system chooses to ignore.

Our public education system has evolved to be "one size fits all." Children of all aptitudes are taught together, at a level and pace suitable to the lowest performing students. Personal attention often goes to students who are educationally, skillfully, behaviorally and/or mentally challenged. Although there is some segregation at the extreme top and bottom, our best and brightest are generally left to fend for themselves while the needy are attended to. Societies ills are often manifested in the classroom. We cannot segregate low performers because patterns in race may be revealed. We cannot segregate mentally or behaviorally challenged students because in the eyes of the law, this is not equal access. We cannot remove continually disruptive children because they are assigned a medical acronym. In other words, sometimes when segregate a group of kids who have similar educational needs, a picture appears. Sometimes that picture may be politically incorrect and so we tuck that idea back into the hole in which it hides.

We need to change the structure of schools by creating classrooms made up of students of similar educational and learning needs. If there are students who struggle with English as a second language, let's provide classrooms where curriculum and staff will serve them. If we have students who are ADHD, let's place them in smaller group classrooms with teachers who are adept at addressing their needs. Let's take students who struggle in Math and place them in a classroom with a teacher and curriculum that suits them. This is not to suggest that an entire school be segregated, it just means we should be able to use this strategy as a tool to address some of the problems in education without fear of retribution. Of course, it goes without saying that we must ensure protection from prejudice and illegal profiling.Until the educational system and society in general admits that students are not all equal in intellect, capability, motivation, etc., and that teaching to kids based on a mutual need is acceptable, we will continue to fail.
Richardsonalj

Con

This should be interesting. Well, let's have fun. Good luck Pro, I accept.
Debate Round No. 1
Zimasilk

Pro

Richardson, I have nothing to add and await your retort.
Richardsonalj

Con

"Our public education system has to be "one size fits all," that is correct, the system is universal, and it's so much more simpler than segregating students and hiring teachers who specialize in certain students. And it costs less. Schools can't afford to constantly spend money on these specialists for Primary, Middle, and High Schools.

"We need to change the structure of schools by creating classrooms made up of students of similar educational and learning needs. If there are students who struggle with English as a second language, let's provide classrooms where curriculum and staff will serve them," there are already many programs and curriculums that are in many schools around the world.

"Let's take students who struggle in Math and place them in a classroom with a teacher and curriculum that suits them." I've personally experienced, from many other students, calling me an idiot, even a retard, for not being at the same level of math as others. By segregating students, by academic level and grades, we will label them. Students are already labeled for being in a certain math class that shows that they struggle in math. Same with Science.

"Personal attention often goes to students who are educationally, skillfully, behaviorally and/or mentally challenged. Although there is some segregation at the extreme top and bottom, our best and brightest are generally left to fend for themselves while the needy are attended to." When you say this, you're saying that the people who are failing and need help should be left behind, and only help the students, who are obviously able to handle themselves in the classroom. You're blaming the people who need help, and are asking for it, and working to graduate, and putting all the blame on them. Also teachers cannot focus on every student, they are busy grading and preparing classes and lessons. Focusing on where students are falling in the lessons are difficult when you're in charge of over 100 different students. And students can be suffering from mental disorders, like ADD, ADHD that makes it difficult for a student to pay attention in class. There's also depression that heavily effects a student's mindset and work ethic. External sources, that causes depression, that are legitimate, that effects students in negative ways.

We shouldn't be segregating students, making them feel alone, harming their self image, and by wanting to leave behind these students that need help, in order to help the students who are already succeeding is moronic. This won't help. Even by giving them specialists to help them, there are outside programs like AVID and Khan Academy that can help students, and have been brought into schools for the students.
Debate Round No. 2
Zimasilk

Pro

Zimasilk forfeited this round.
Richardsonalj

Con

My opponent has failed to post an argument; there's nothing for me to debate here. Instead I'll only substantiate my previous argument.

" We shouldn't be segregating students, making them feel alone, harming their self image," I would like to bring up Jane Elliot's famous brown/ blue eyes prejudice experiment. It's a good read, and I highly recommend it.
I'll leave a link here,

http://study.com...
http://dangerousminds.net...

Elliot's Experiment on racism was set in her own classroom, with her young students as the test subjects. She wanted to see how her students would respond if she separated the class by eye colour. She told her class that people (students) with blue eyes were smarter, and better in many other ways, than people (students) with brown eyes. They were then treated better, and told them not to play with each other. Soon after, students, with blue eyes, began harassing students with brown eyes. Eventually, the class was divided.

What happened in the experiment, can happen again if we segregate students, by academic level. There'll be two types of main students: 'Smart' and 'Stupid'. Students who are already academically superior, will gain a superior personality to the 'stupid' students' . More resources ,and time, will be spent on students who understand what they're doing, while leaving the students who are falling behind, to fail. They'll lose interest in school, seeing themselves as stupid.
We already have special classes for students with autism in many schools. Students K-8 saw these students as weird, abnormal, we didn't want them to be around us. We also thought they shouldn't even be here. The 'stupid' students will be treated this way.

I want to look at this again,"Let's take students who struggle in Math and place them in a classroom with a teacher and curriculum that suits them," this is already in High School and Middle School. Being in a lower class than others already make students feel pressured and more stupid than others, 'being in the idiot's class'.

This proposed system is flawed, it makes students, who are failing, be left behind. What's important is the student. We already have systems like AVID and IB in schools that help students to get in college with different academic levels. Replacing the current one with the proposed system will not do anything. It can cause actual academic segregation and a decrease in Student's work ethic and mindeset, preventing the IB mindset.
Debate Round No. 3
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by bbethcox 2 years ago
bbethcox
I am not a teacher no but still think the same thing
Posted by Zimasilk 2 years ago
Zimasilk
Mnotter, I am always appreciative of a different perspective and criticism. It seems my goal of suggesting we provide a more suitable educational experience to all of our kids, fell to the wayside. My bad! As for already segregating kids based on their ability, I haven't seen it. My kids attend a school attended by students from low to middle income families. My husband works at the lowest performing school in the city. I've worked at several other schools. No difference. For the most part, kids are placed among 30+ classmates with differing abilities, skills, handicaps, family issues, etc.. My son was ignored. That is strangely acceptable compared to the kids who continue to struggle in this "one size fits all" environment.

As for fulfilling a bias? I have a younger son whose needs are far greater than my oldest. So yes, my bias is that of a parent and future grandparent.
Posted by Mnotter 2 years ago
Mnotter
I'm pretty sure they already segregate kids based on their ability, there is advanced courses and special education courses. I think your child may be exaggerating, and if he is that much brighter than he should be in a course that actually challenges him.

I don't think this individual, personal experience really represents the general population. There is an obvious bias that the original poster is trying to fulfill, a bias of their own genetics and their parenting skills.
Posted by ColeTrain 2 years ago
ColeTrain
Lol. I was wondering what was happening. :P
Posted by ColeTrain 2 years ago
ColeTrain
@Zimasilk

Okay. I totally agree with your overall stance, I've watched potential be diminished, and I've even experienced it. The separation of classes based not solely on grade level, but intellect would be desirable, especially in cases of extremities.

Like I said, a bit harsh. "Align" is better, but even just separation sounds more acceptable. Personally, I'm of the opinion of crafting a resolution to best fit the topic under dispute. In this scenario, it would seem to be something like this: Classrooms at public schools should be separated based on intellect, behavior, social ability. It might take some editing, but I believe resolutions can impact the debate in a more effective manner if worded precisely.

I must admit, segregation was true click-bait. ;)
Posted by Zimasilk 2 years ago
Zimasilk
Bbethcox,

What I propose would not be an easy task. I merely suggest we consider this option and not side step reality. Clearly you are a teacher, yes? My husband is a teacher as are several of our friends and relatives. I am also a parent of two boys. I have seen and heard a lot. Although I believe our brightest students will prevail due to their innate talents and character, the education system does not serve them well. In the animal world, the fittest are nurtured. This may sound insensitive, but in our world we often nurture the least fit.
Posted by Zimasilk 2 years ago
Zimasilk
Cole, I am speaking about what I consider "bright" kids, those who perform in the upper (approx) 80% - 98%. I am also referring to the lower grades, approximately 6th - 9th. Kids who test in the top .02% were offered advanced courses from 3rd grade. My kid was in the top .04, so he didn't make it, along with hundreds of other bright kids. Bygones. I am considering how much our country invests in its lowest performing and/or least capable students because they command it. Let's not make the independent, capable, self motivated, kids pay
for it.

As for my choice of the word "segregation", you are right. The word doesn't fully express what I propose. Maybe, "aligning" might be better, although I truly believe in shock value. ;D
Posted by ColeTrain 2 years ago
ColeTrain
There are already advanced/honors classes provided for students who excel above the average student. How is the implication of your idea juxtaposed to any that we already have in place? Moreover, I'd suggest utilizing different terminology to express your points, as the connotation of "segregation" could yield unseemly ramifications.
Posted by Balacafa 2 years ago
Balacafa
I do have slightly above a 91% win ratio though so if you want to debate this with someone else that'll be fine too.
Posted by Balacafa 2 years ago
Balacafa
I live in the UK so I'm not sure that this debate is applicable to me but if you are interested in debating this with me then, sure, why not?
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