The Instigator
Existentialreasonist
Pro (for)
Winning
4 Points
The Contender
Simplegirl
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

College/University and formal tertiary education is not necessary

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Existentialreasonist
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/23/2013 Category: Education
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,641 times Debate No: 30586
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (1)
Votes (1)

 

Existentialreasonist

Pro

The government may appear to be benevolent with what they provide but seem to be inconvenient to me when receiving money from the public whether it's educational or tax related. Tax rates are too high and student loans appear to be unattractive.
I came across an article explaining how graduates from high school that received the highest ranks and A+ grades are applying for jobs instead of university courses. They apply at places such as accounting and law firms among many more respectable jobs and are accepted. They receive work experience and training which will broaden their skill-set and will be able to mention these on their resume. Training, experience and education seems to be more favourable to the employer than a University Degree.
Universities seem like a government scam for money.
With the internet available many can gain knowledge easily so where does that leave University? Some organisation that provides you with a paper called a 'degree' that says you paid for your course, passed your exams and sat through your lectures?
Knowledge can be learned online and the sense of 'community' that university provides can also be arranged on the internet so why not just have an exam for a job instead of a degree? why not have an exam to show a company that you are eligible for a position, and that you have the available skills?

also what are your views on social democracy?
Simplegirl

Con

"Graduates from high school that received the highest ranks and A+ grade are applying for jobs instead of university courses"
-You have also stated that these are the people who would have no problems being employed to do various respectable jobs. This is great and it also means that people can start their income at an earlier age as they possibly skipped the 2 to 5 years of education (roughly). However, you and I both know that this does not apply to everyone. It only applies to those at A+ grade. We should also keep in mind that the grades students get in high school is only an initial stage and that things can be very different in College or University, as those who don"t do as well in High school can go on to do much better in college and the A+ students in High school can end up realising that their potential is limited once they are in college or University. So presuming that High School A+ students should have the opportunity to work before the students who are not up to that level, YET, is very unfair.
"Training, Experience and Education is more important to employers"
-You may be right in saying that training schools and directly applying for work gives you training and experience. But it does not necessarily give you education. There is a fine line between education and qualification and a University degree is the proof of both. Colleges and Universities will not only deal with the subject you are training for but they will also educate you further on morals and ethics and build you up with discipline and knowledge which High school and jobs alone can"t do. And as for employers, why would they put their effort, time and possibly money to train and qualify employees to work for them, especially while the global economy is becoming increasingly competitive. Wouldn"t they rather have employees with University degrees that show that they are full on ready for work? Some employees maybe willing but most would probably not be so willing.

"Universities seem like a government scam for money"

-While University fees may seem ridiculously high, it is in government"s interest to educate people and build a strong nation. The high fees show the value of Education and there are ways for even the least financially stable students to be educated in universities through loans, scholarships, and reduced fees depending on the student"s family income. So there are ways around the high fees.
"With the internet available many can gain knowledge easily so where does that leave University?"
-If the Internet is a substitution for Universities then there must be no need of primary schools or high schools either. But there is a need. While the internet maybe a place where one can study and interact and communicate with each other, but it is in no way the same as going to a place of learning, where there is an assurance that learning is taking place.
-And as for a degree, you have stated that it is just a piece of "paper" that suggests that you have "sat through your lectures" and "passed your exams". I would rephrase that and say that the "paper" in actual fact suggests that you have achieved your goals and proved yourself to be a qualified AND well educated person. The degree also expresses capability and the ability of collaboration, research and organisation. Universities and colleges build us to be organised because without organisation it is unlikely that you would "pass you exams" as you put it. Same goes for research and collaboration.
"Why not just do an exam for a job instead of a degree"
-Because an exam for a job only limits your knowledge to that one profession and does not show that you are educated, may show that you are qualified, but not educated. Whereas a degree shows a wider range of skills and knowledge.
As for my views on social democracy I would say that it is fair to practise it however it might not be appropriate to be socially democratic about everything. By social democracy I understand that you are more or less talking about free will. And I will say that free will should be prohibited if it is sensible to do so and if it benefits the society generally.
Debate Round No. 1
Existentialreasonist

Pro

Yes, sure it can provide for those who do not get A+ as a back up, but generally is it still worth the time and money when you can get training and experience at the workforce.

" We should also keep in mind that the grades students get in high school is only an initial stage and that things can be very different in College or University, as those who don"t do as well in High school can go on to do much better in college and the A+ students in High school can end up realising that their potential is limited once they are in college or University. So presuming that High School A+ students should have the opportunity to work before the students who are not up to that level, YET, is very unfair."

even if it is an initial stage there are all stages anyway, taking college and uni out of the picture can still provide for those who didn't get A grades, it can be an open system.

"Yet, is very unfair"

If they are somewhat disadvantaged it's alright as there are disadvantages and advantages to certain people anyway like scholarships, uni fees, course prerequisites.

" There is a fine line between education and qualification and a University degree is the proof of both. Colleges and Universities will not only deal with the subject you are training for but they will also educate you further on morals and ethics and build you up with discipline and knowledge which High school and jobs alone can"t do. And as for employers, why would they put their effort, time and possibly money to train and qualify employees to work for them, especially while the global economy is becoming increasingly competitive. Wouldn"t they rather have employees with University degrees that show that they are full on ready for work? Some employees maybe willing but most would probably not be so willing."

Education and qualification can be gained by the individual and proof of both can be tested when applying for a job. You have no sources or proof that university does educate you further on morals and ethics maybe the workplace does an even better job of that.

"discipline and knowledge which high school and jobs alone can't do" still no proof i don't see why paying for a few extra years in a government scheme is any better than the workforce. Many who have dropped out of university or never even attended ended up being successful and somewhat knowledgable and ethical so i'm sorry but being educated and having dignity does not rely on University it can be developed by the individual if he attends or not. Just with the letter 'A' 'a' to 'l'

S. Daniel Abraham, billionaire founder of Slim-Fast. Joined the Army at the age of 18 and fought in Europe during World War II. Did not attend college.

Roman Abramovich, richest man in Russia, billionaire. Dropped out of college. He studied at the Moscow State Auto Transport Institute before taking a leave of absence from academics to go into business. He later earned a correspondence degree from the Moscow State Law Academy.

Abigail Adams, U.S. first lady. Home schooled.

Ansel Adams, photographer. Dropped out of high school.

Bryan Adams, singer, songwriter. High school dropout.

Calpernia Adams, transsexual showgirl. Never attended college. As she noted, "My parents thought that college leads you away from God, so they hadn't saved any money."

Sandy Adams, U.S. congressperson. Dropped out of high school at the age of 17 to join the Air Force. Later got her GED and attended the police academy before being hired as a deputy sheriff.

William Adams, aka Will.i.am, singer, songwriter, music producer, founder of the Black Eyed Peas, actor, entrepreneur. He formed his first group in high school. Never attended college.

Gautam Adani, commodities billionaire from India. Dropped out of college.

Adele, aka Adele Laurie Blue Adkins, singer and songwriter. Intended to go to college but got signed to a recording deal just after her high school graduation.

Sheldon Adelson, billionaire casino owner. Dropped out of City College of New York to become a court reporter. He made his first fortune doing trade shows.

Trace Adkins, country music singer and songwriter, actor. Studied at Louisiana Tech University but never officially graduated. Went to work on an oil rig instead.

Mortimer Adler, author, educator, editor. Left high school at the age of 15 to work. Later received his high school equivalency degree and attended Columbia University.

Ferran Adria, chef. Has been called the world's greatest chef. Did not finish high school.

Miguel Adrover, fashion designer. High school dropout.

Ben Affleck, actor, screenwriter. Left the University of Vermont after one semester; then dropped out of Occidental College to pursue acting.

Andre Agassi, tennis player, winner of 8 Grand Slam titles. Quit school in the ninth grade and turned tennis pro at the age of 16. His father would drive the kids to school but, instead, actually took them to local tennis courts to practice.

Dianna Agron, singer, dancer, actress. "I didn't take the typical path and go to college after high school. Instead, I saved up money from teaching dance classes and moved to L.A."

Christina Aguilera, singer, songwriter. Never finished high school.

Danny Aiello, actor. Dropped out of high school at the age of 16 to join the army. Later received a high school equivalency degree.

Troy Aikman, Superbowl-winning football quarterback, TV sports commentator. In 2009, he finally graduated from UCLA, 20 years after leaving college to play in the National Football League. Aikman had promised his mother, when he left school just two courses shy of a degree, that he would return and finish. In 2009, at the age of 42, he finally fulfilled that commitment, earning A's in his last two courses, thus earning a bachelor's degree in sociology.

Malin Akerman, model, actress. Enrolled in York University (Toronto) but left after about a year to see what else was out there. She moved to Los Angeles to become an actress.

Dennis Albaugh, billionaire founder of pesticide company Albaugh Inc. Earned a 2-year agriculture business degree from Des Moines Community College. Did not continue on to a 4-year degree.

Edward Albee, playwright. Dropped out of Trinity College after three semesters.

Jack Albertson, Oscar-winning actor. High school dropout.

http://sharevdo.com... - and those who not only never dropped out but never attended, incredible

While it can be useful to many my point is that it shouldn't be 'necessary' that's the point of the argument

In reply to your last few points, it may be the government's interest to educate and build a strong nation but that's the whole trap you just said it. Trying to pay off a loan for a few years sounds like a farmer, farm animal situation. We are slaves into make a "stronger nation" i think we deserve more liberty and the government should be using taxes more wisely.

"where there is an assurance that learning is taking place" you can't assure that, i see more people enjoying online ways of learning like khan academy rather than the classroom, and i already stated that the sense of 'community' can be formed online but that alone shouldn't require that much money

"-Because an exam for a job only limits your knowledge to that one profession and does not show that you are educated, may show that you are qualified, but not educated. Whereas a degree shows a wider range of skills and knowledge." how so? you didn't justify, a degree doesn't show someone's overall educational status either it just limits the knowledge to the one degree like you stated.

Yeah social democracy is the increase of liberty for the nation and looks like the best step to take in regards to 'indirect slavery' as I like to call it
Simplegirl

Con

Simplegirl forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
Simplegirl

Con

Simplegirl forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by Simplegirl 3 years ago
Simplegirl
I am really sorry Pro I have had some technical issues with this website which is why I couldn't post any of my arguments.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by RyuuKyuzo 3 years ago
RyuuKyuzo
ExistentialreasonistSimplegirlTied
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Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: ff