The Instigator
Solarman1969
Pro (for)
Losing
7 Points
The Contender
Tatarize
Con (against)
Winning
39 Points

Collidal Silver- science based debate on its effectiveness and the lying propaganda aginst it

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/9/2008 Category: Science
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,571 times Debate No: 1578
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (19)
Votes (14)

 

Solarman1969

Pro

Hello out there debate.org members

Do you have ANY background in hard science, logic and Chemistry?

Do you want to have a real debate on the subject of colloidal silver and its effectiveness as a patheogen destructor and health aid?

I didnt mean to be a snob before, I was hoping for a minimum BS candidate to debate, but none came - so if you want to take it up, I will be happy to debate you

there obviously isnt any scientists here on debate.org yet , so I will be happy to take up the subject with you ,a layperson, if you like

THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT SUBJECT and MY GOAL IS TO HELP YOUR HEALTH

sincerely

SOLARMAN
Tatarize

Con

You previously debated this subject and were defeated by a four to one margin by a teenager. As I believe his (DreamingBearCat) argument to be sound as well as well researched I submit it as my opening statement. I will happily defend his claims (now my claims) if you can manage to refute theim.

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The FDA bans the promotion of colloidal silver as a drug (it's available as a supplement) for one simple reason: they're required to by law. Not some specific law aimed at colloidal silver, not even one targeted at "alternative medicine." Just the normal, everyday requirement that a drug be proven in clinical studies to be effective. In fact, not one study has ever shown it to be effective in treating, preventing, or otherwise benefiting people suffering from, any disease. In fact, colloidal silver has been shown to be largely ineffective against bacteria. In 1995, an advocate of colloidal silver tested various brands available. Only half of them showed any ability to halt bacterial growth on a petri dish, and none of them showed any strength beyond that of hand soap.

Secondly, aside from there being no evidence that silver can attack viruses, there is no possible mechanism for it to do so. Viruses are not living organisms; they are fragments of DNA that hijack other cells' processes to reproduce themselves, and each one uses very specific chemical pathways to achieve this. Because of this, antivirals are extremely specific to the diseases they can treat—Tamiflu, for instance, is useless against AIDS but very effective against influenza. If somehow silver did screw with the pathway that one virus uses, there are literally millions of others that don't use that pathway.

Third, silver is dangerous. There is a condition called argyria caused by too much exposure to silver. It is generally not life threatening. It simply causes you to irreversibly turn blue as silver accumulates in your skin, and can affect your vision as silver becomes deposited in the fluid inside of your eye. (There may actually be more serious effects. Since argyria is rare, few human studies have been done, but experiments on guinea pigs suggest that they may interfere with normal growth if used before maturity.) And, as a note specifically toward Solarman, making it on your own increases the chance of getting argyria compared to buying "professionally" made concoctions.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://www.quackwatch.org...

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Colloidal (spelled with two 'o's) silver it's doesn't cure anything and it turns you bluish-silver.

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I would also like to point out, though not related to the topic exactly that, that I am appalled you give that crap to your baby.
Debate Round No. 1
Solarman1969

Pro

WELCOME !

WELCOME MY FRIENDS TO SOLARMANS WORLD

IT IS A WORLD OF HEALTH

and thats that we here to debate today, HEALTH

HEALTH = good feeling, no disease

Now today the topic is pathogens, and their prevention and abatement in the human body.

What are the main pathogens to human beings?

(1) Bacteria, like E. Coli and The Bubonic plague

(2) Viruses , like Rhinovirus and the AIDS virus.

(3) Fungi and Molds -

note : some fungi and molds are very good and tasty and fun :)

There are also non-living or at least non-reproducing threats and toxins, but those are not the subject of todays debate.

these types of pathogens REPRODUCE in your body, and thus can eventually owerwhelm you or even KILL you.

Todays topic concerns COLLOIDAL SILVER, which has incredible and magic powers to aid human beings.

Silver has been known for CENTURIES to the common man. Here is a brief history from http://www.info-archive.com...

Silver is a powerful, natural antibiotic that has been used for thousands of years, with no harmful side effects ever having being observed.

Great Grandma put a silver dollar in the milk to keep if from spoiling as it sat on the back porch in summertime. Also it is well known that the ancient Greeks knew the medical value of silver. It was observed that those ancient families who ate from silver utensils rarely were sick and had few infections. This knowledge passed on to kings, emperors, sultans and their families and members of their royal courts. They ate from silver plates, drank from silver cups, used silver utensils and stored their food in silver containers. As a result of this use, silver was ever so slightly rubbed off and mixed in their foods. And after a generation or two, they received the full benefit from the silver particles which found their way into the body of these people, hence had little chance of getting any infectious illness.

These royals were called Blue Bloods because their skin had a blue tint, due to the accumulation of minute traces of pure metallic silver. The common red blooded folk, however, ate from earthenware dishes with iron utensils and frequently were sick, whilst the royals enjoyed the freedom from infectious disease as early as from birth.

There are many historical references on Colloidal Silver. One of the most complete is published in The Lancet dated Dec. 12, 1914. http://www.thelancet.com... for more info.

Colloidal Silver was in common use in America from the late 1800s until 1938. It was prescribed for a great variety of diseases and infections

Today, Colloidal Silver is rapidly gaining favour in the medical community, reflecting a kind of revival in the public health sector. Dr. Richard L Davies, executive director of the Utah Silver Institute, which monitors silver technology in 37 countries, reported in 1978: � In four years we have described 87 important new medical uses for silver. We are just beginning to see to what extent silver can relieve suffering and save lives.

Some contemporary references from which this information is drawn include Dr. Harry Margraf of the St. Louis University, Dr. Charles Fox of the Columbia University; Dr. Carl Moyer, Dept. of Surgery at Washington University and the literature of Dr. Robert Becker- � The Body Electric and Crosscurrents.

RECENT PUBLISHED RESEARCH ON SILVER

(1) Bactericidal Action of Collidal Silver

http://aem.asm.org... WIKIPEDIA REF 8

SUMMARY

In this published research, Yamanka et al. "Bactericidal Action of the Silver Ion....." Applied and Environmental Biology July 2005

This study shows that a solution of 0.9 ppm (990 ppb) Silver ions take a culture of E.Coli NBRC-3972 from a population of 10,000,000 per mL to less than 10 per mL in a period of 13 hours.

Note: Typical prepared solutions are 10-50 ppm, and diltued in the body are about 1-5 ppm (ie 1/2 L CS @ to 7 L blood = 1/14 ratio

The groundbreaking aspects of the research was that the action was to show that the silver ion penetrates the cell quickly and ingteracts with the ribosome , inhibiting its ability to make ATP by repressing proteins and enzymes

OPPONENT Tartarize's position

"In fact, colloidal silver has been shown to be largely ineffective against bacteria"

2 ) VIRUSES- Published research

SILVER KILLS VIRUSES, STUDY FINDS
Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - FreeMarketNews.com

In a groundbreaking study, the Journal of Nanotechnology has published a study that found silver nanoparticles kills HIV-1 and is likely to kill virtually any other virus. The study, which was conducted by the University of Texas and Mexico University, is the first medical study to ever explore the benefits of silver nanoparticles, according to Physorg.

During the study, researchers used three different methods of limiting the size of the silver nanoparticles by using capping agents. The capping agents were foamy carbon, poly (PVP), and bovine serum albumin (BSA). The particles ranged in size from 1 to 10 nanometers depending on the method of capping. After incubating the HIV-1 virus at 37 C, the silver particles killed 100% of the virus within 3 hours for all three methods. The scientists believe that the silver particles bonded through glycoprotein knobs on the virus with spacing of about 22 nanometers in length.

While further research is needed, researchers are optimistic that nanological silver may be the silver bullet to kill viruses. The researchers in the study said that they had already begin experiments using silver nanoparticles to kill what is known as the super bug (Methicillin resistant staphylococcus aureus). Already used as a topical antibiotic in the medical industry, silver may now come under consideration as an alternative to drugs when it comes to fighting previously untreatable viruses such as the Tamiflu resistant avian flu.

source : http://www.freemarketnews.com...

OPPONENT Tartarize position

"Secondly, aside from there being no evidence that silver can attack viruses, there is no possible mechanism for it to do so"

3) Fungi and Molds

The presence of colloidal silver near a fungus, disables its oxygen metabolism enzyme, its chemical lung, so to say. Within a few minutes, the pathogen suffocates and dies, and is cleared out of the body by the immune, lymphatic and elimination systems.

SILVER SAFETY

Silver is the most subtle antibiotic prophylactic antiseptic there is, it is ABSOLUTELY NON-TOXIC to mammals, reptiles, plants and all living things with more than one cell.

http://www.silverfacts.com...

OPPONENT Tartarize positions on silver safety

"silver is dangerous."

ARYGRIA

This is mostly government and quack-watch, hype

there have only been four , yes four, cases ever reported

none of them had ANY negative health effects

three of them are cured.

the fourth, the "blue man", Paul Karason, put silver salts on his face to cure a skin condition, not internally, and continues to use CS daily.

http://www.silvermedicine.org...

SUMMARY ON THE "DANGER" OF CS

there is NO danger.

In fact the danger comes from NOT taking care of youself and letting pathogens ravage your body and put you out of commission.

OPPONENT Tartarize's FINAL IGNORANT INSULT

"I am appalled you give that crap to your baby."

Uhm..... that "crap" made his cough go away in like 2 days and fever in 1

NOW SOLARMANS HEALTH NETWORK WILL GIVE YOU INSTRUCTIONS ON HOW TO MAKE YOUR OWN FREE CS GENERATOR

3 rechargeable 9 V batteries (and charger)
9V wire attchments
alligator clips
2 99.99+ pure silver electrodes (like 5$)

put 12 oz of DISTILLED water in a teapot- bring to boil- place the 27V across the silver electrodes in water at 1" sep. Wait 10 minutes- add tea- drink

TO YOUR HEALTH ! !

SOLARMAN
Tatarize

Con

Welcome to reality.

The main pathogens in humans are Bacteria, Viruses, Protozoa, Fungi, Parasites, Proteins. So, TB, Flu, Malaria, Athlete's foot, tapeworm, and mad cow... to name a well known one from each. I suppose one might also offer cancers and certain toxic exposures, for example arygria caused ingesting silver.

You say that "Todays topic concerns COLLOIDAL SILVER, which has incredible and magic powers to aid human beings." -- Magic powers are right. They apparently manage to do amazing helpful things and aren't effective at all in lab studies.

Silver has been known for centuries, and has very few side effects... in fact, it has very few effects period. My great grandmother didn't toss around silver dollars, in fact, a silver dollar was a lot of money and wasting milk by letting it sit in the heat during the summertime would have been a lot like tossing around silver dollars. Also, oddly enough, silver dollars don't dissolve. Believe it or not you actually need to electrolyze the silver to get it off something silver.

You claim the Greeks knew the medical value of Silver. Well, the Greeks also knew the medical value of blood letting. Nowadays we do tests on such things rather than simply taking the word of the ancient Greeks. We find ourselves (read make) some sick mice. Give them half of them what we want to test. Compare recovery between the half that got the test substance and that half that didn't. Lo and behold... Colloidal Silver produced no difference in recovery or mortality. This is the kind of test done and failed ergo the reason the FDA doesn't allow you to make claims that this stuff cures anything.

Royals lived with less illness. Why, it must be something amazing! I mean what part of being rich, not living is squalor, not drinking dirty water, and not having horrific hygiene could conceivably explain this difference?

They use to also prescribe you mercury to drink, it was a fantastic laxative (mostly because it was heavy and pushed).

Colloidal silver is rapidly gaining favor? You back this up by somebody working in the SILVER institute from 1978! Wow, if it was that rapid in 1978 everybody must be using it now, especially considering the results that using Colloidal silver is exactly as effective as not using it... though not using it has the side effect of not turning you blue.

Most of the rest of this crap is cut and pasted. Though the asm.org study you posted is a real study. But it isn't about Colloidal Silver, rather it's silver nitrate. A little bit of chemistry will show you that all silver is not colloidal. Colloidal means it's just tiny silver particles. Silver nitrate is AgNO3 rather than Ag. This causes one massive difference, rather than just causing you to turn blue, the AgNO3 is toxic to bacteria AND humans.

To make an analogy, say I claim that salt will protect you from cancer. Now if I back this up by showing that when I subject cancer cells to chlorine gas they die, when I subject them to sodium they die, and salt is perfectly harmless! The fact is, Sodium Chloride is harmless, but Na and Cl2 are both extremely deadly. The fact that they would be deadly to cancer cells and that salt is harmless to me, doesn't allow for this comparison. Na and Cl are deadly to me and cancer, NaCl is deadly to neither cancer nor me. Though, you're not even making this cogent of an argument, you're just pretending that AgNO3 is Ag.

If you honestly feel that that study is evidence for your claim, I honestly feel bad for you. I hope you are just being deceitful, dishonest and lying because the alternative is that you are so scientifically ignorant as to warrant pity.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Based on the criteria of a "science based debate" -- that should have you disqualified.
Debate Round No. 2
Solarman1969

Pro

Ok since you provide NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER

I will simply point out your FALSE STATEMENTS and make you PROVE them with PERR REVIEWED PUBLISHED LITERATURE FROM A REPUTABLE JOURNAL, as I have done

YOUR FALSE UNSUBSTANTIATED STATEMENTS

I suppose one might also offer cancers and certain toxic exposures, for example arygria caused ingesting silver.

They apparently manage to do amazing helpful things and aren't effective at all in lab studies.

Silver has been known for centuries, and has very few side effects... in fact, it has very few effects period

Also, oddly enough, silver dollars don't dissolve. Believe it or not you actually need to electrolyze the silver to get it off something silver.

Compare recovery between the half that got the test substance and that half that didn't. Lo and behold... Colloidal Silver produced no difference in recovery or mortality. This is the kind of test done and failed ergo the reason the FDA doesn't allow you to make claims that this stuff cures anything.

They use to also prescribe you mercury to drink, it was a fantastic laxative (mostly because it was heavy and pushed).

Most of the rest of this crap is cut and pasted. Though the asm.org study you posted is a real study. But it isn't about Colloidal Silver, rather it's silver nitrate.

This causes one massive difference, rather than just causing you to turn blue, the AgNO3 is toxic to bacteria AND humans.

If you honestly feel that that study is evidence for your claim, I honestly feel bad for you. I hope you are just being deceitful, dishonest and lying because the alternative is that you are so scientifically ignorant as to warrant pity.

MY RETORT

100% of your statements are lies, or just false due to your ignorance of Chemisty and Epidemiology

The only source you use is wikipedia, which I also use (ref 8) which is the ONLY peer reviewed paper of real science in the references

again that real science shows a 0.9ppm soluton of Ag ions kills 100% of E Coli in a period of 13 hours

taratarize, I know that you just want to try and be a foil to me , but you are not even near in the league here to try and debate me

CONCLUSION

My sincere hope is that debate.org members learn the incredible nature and value of CS and that it benefits them and their health

I laid out plenty of facts, science and references in the last argument, and they are now part of the permament record here for anyone to view

SOLARMAN

cheers

SOLARMAN
Tatarize

Con

You're kidding right? You think that silver nitrate counts as evidence for colloidal silver?

I have an argument for you. H2O kills all viruses, molds, bacteria, and parasites. I submit that this is true because I have study "X" here which shows that when H2SO4 (note that's H2O + SO2) has these staggering powers!

That's right, water is amazing and should keep you healthy because Sulphuric acid is effective against something.

I don't need to cut and paste large tracts of text from non-sense websites, I actually know such things. The Wikipedia and Quackwatch cites were DreamingBearCat's as was the opening argument. In fact, if you note, DreamingBearCat actually originally cited that asm.org paper as grounds for believing silver nitrate could be effective for somethings.

If you honestly believe that citing an unrelated paper involving a silver compound means that little bits of colloidal silver do things which studies demonstrate they do not do... then I'm sorry. The tribe has spoken. You aren't even vaguely scientifically minded. From your rants, there was little by which one could come to the conclusion that you had bad reasoning as you never stayed on topic long enough to present any reasoning (though this might have been a rather large indicator in itself). Here, you have given horrific reasons why we should believe such a thing and as such you have shown yourself to be a complete failure when it comes to scientific understanding.

You have the audacity to accuse other people of not being scientific and you try to pretend that "silver nitrate" is "silver"? AgNO3 = Ag.

I would suggest that you should be ashamed, but I don't think you'd understand why.
Debate Round No. 3
19 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Tatarize 9 years ago
Tatarize
You shall not press down upon the brow of labor this crown of thorns! You shall not crucify mankind upon a cross of gold.
Posted by mindjob 9 years ago
mindjob
Wait, did you just call for a gold standard again? The same thing that Nixon took us off of over 30 years ago? Under a gold standard, you must hold enough gold to equal dollar-for-dollar what you have in circulation. And that just isn't in this country, but every dollar you have abroad too. Granted, more and more countries are switching to the Euro for international trade, but the sheer amount of American money out there could never hope to be adequately backed by gold. That's why Nixon took us off of it.

And you inflate currency, not economies. You grow economies. The most attributable effect of the fed dropping interest rates to around 1% in the early 2000's is the housing bubble, but the fed had to drop the rates because of the first recession caused by the tech bubble and Bush's tax cuts. The rest of the world looks at us just like creditors. When we don't pay our bills and don't seem to give a damn, they stop having faith in our economy. It really is just that simple. We can have an economic debate too when you can fit it into your busy schedule.
Posted by DucoNihilum 9 years ago
DucoNihilum
The economy doesn't /need/ to be inflated- we need a gold standard.

Inflating the economy creates short term benefits, but in the long run it causes more problems than it does good.
Posted by Tatarize 9 years ago
Tatarize
There's also the reason why the economy needs to be inflated.
Posted by DucoNihilum 9 years ago
DucoNihilum
Doesn't directly inflating the economy make more sense?
Posted by Tatarize 9 years ago
Tatarize
Why would a war and staggering debt cause the world community to devalue American currency? Gee, I don't know? Maybe because of the increased chance of collapsing faith in the US?
Posted by DucoNihilum 9 years ago
DucoNihilum
Yeah, I have 5 debates going and travel plans coming up- a little busy. I promise I'll reply by the time, though. If our system was capitalist, it would be a free and unregulated market, there would be competition- that doesn't exist.

Why would the war / debt suddenly cause the dollar to fall? The dollar fell because the fed cut the interest rates, inflating the economy.

It's pretty simple- when you inflate the economy the money is suddenly less valuable.

I thought everybody realized that since Milton Friedman.
Posted by mindjob 9 years ago
mindjob
LOL. DucoNihilum, if you think we don't have a capitalistic medical system, you really have some serious problems with accepting reality. I'm still waiting for your rebuttal argument in our debate about welfare. As soon as we're done with that, I would LOVE to debate you on health care.

And Lindsay, it isn't just one trillion debt that Bush has accumulated, its just about 4 trillion. Otherwise, you're right on point. We can all thank Bush's Reaganomonics for it, and it is the reason why the dollar is so weak and one of the reasons why our economy is going down the crapper for the second time in Bush's presidency. For anyone who thinks otherwise, please take a basic macro economics class before commenting.
Posted by DucoNihilum 9 years ago
DucoNihilum
We don't have a capitalistic health care system. I challenged her to a debate privately, but she has yet to accept.

If you want to challenge me you're free to do so, Tatarize.
Posted by Tatarize 9 years ago
Tatarize
On topic? What your crazy rant?

Lindsay is absolutely right. That is why the dollar is weak. That is why health care sucks. And you are quite frankly crazy. I do love that your debate win ratio is down to 0%.

My only objection is her saying 160% "voter turnout" when she should have said a 60% increase in "turnout". "Voter turnout" refers to the number of voters who vote divided by the number who can. A 160% "voter turnout" would be problematic to say the least (everybody who could vote voted and 60% more than were allowed). But, I won't fault her on terminology as she explained what she meant shortly there after.

Further, she's right for laying the smackdown on DucoNihilum for the implication that "socialist" control of health care is at fault for anything here when we're one of the few westernized countries with a private health care system and one of the worst health care systems in the westernized world. This, after spending massive amounts more per person than *ANY* country on health care AND having some of the best doctors in the world and developing a hell of a lot of the treatments.
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