The Instigator
Solarman1969
Pro (for)
Losing
9 Points
The Contender
DreamingBearcat
Con (against)
Winning
46 Points

Colloidal Silver is an incredible remedy and FREE!

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/9/2007 Category: Health
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 5,103 times Debate No: 195
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (14)
Votes (17)

 

Solarman1969

Pro

CS is one of the best fighters of pathogens known to man

It is being suppressed by the feds because you can make it yourself for free and dont need the medical establishmentto heal yourself of Viruses, bacteria and other pathogens.

I have been using it and spreading the gospel for 15+ years

I am trolling to see if i can get one of the government trolls to come out so I can kick their butt!

cheers !

p.s do a google search and get a CS generator and make incredible no risk antibiotics for pennies! (I am not advertising anyone here)
DreamingBearcat

Con

First of all, my qualifications, so you can judge my credibility.
I am not a professional scientist. I am a student of biology and rhetoric at Willamette University. I make a habit of studying pseudoscience (superstition, propaganda, and other nonsense that masquerades as science) and debunking it. I am not, nor do I ever intend to be, associated with the FDA or big pharma. I largely hold big pharma in contempt for price gouging and falsification of data and the FDA for failing to rigorously test new medicines.

Now, on to the substance of the debate.
I concede a single point of yours: silver is capable of killing bacteria. In fact, silver nitrate (not colloidal silver) is still used in neonatal centers to prevent eye infection. Silver can interfere with certain pathways that bacteria use to produce ATP, the chemical used by cells to harness the energy derived from breaking down sugars, fats, and proteins. (If you have the background, my source is http://aem.asm.org..., but it's unfortunately rather technical.)

To be perfectly clear, I concede nothing beyond what was in the previous paragraph.

The FDA bans the promotion of colloidal silver as a drug (it's available as a supplement) for one simple reason: they're required to by law. Not some specific law aimed at colloidal silver, not even one targeted at "alternative medicine." Just the normal, everyday requirement that a drug be proven in clinical studies to be effective. In fact, not one study has ever shown it to be effective in treating, preventing, or otherwise benefiting people suffering from, any disease. In fact, colloidal silver has been shown to be largely ineffective against bacteria. In 1995, an advocate of colloidal silver tested various brands available. Only half of them showed any ability to halt bacterial growth on a petri dish, and none of them showed any strength beyond that of hand soap.

Secondly, aside from there being no evidence that silver can attack viruses, there is no possible mechanism for it to do so. Viruses are not living organisms; they are fragments of DNA that hijack other cells' processes to reproduce themselves, and each one uses very specific chemical pathways to achieve this. Because of this, antivirals are extremely specific to the diseases they can treat—Tamiflu, for instance, is useless against AIDS but very effective against influenza. If somehow silver did screw with the pathway that one virus uses, there are literally millions of others that don't use that pathway.

Third, silver is dangerous. There is a condition called argyria caused by too much exposure to silver. It is generally not life threatening. It simply causes you to irreversibly turn blue as silver accumulates in your skin, and can affect your vision as silver becomes deposited in the fluid inside of your eye. (There may actually be more serious effects. Since argyria is rare, few human studies have been done, but experiments on guinea pigs suggest that they may interfere with normal growth if used before maturity.) And, as a note specifically toward Solarman, making it on your own increases the chance of getting argyria compared to buying "professionally" made concoctions.

My sources were the Wikipedia articles on colloidal silver, argyria, and antiviral drugs (http://en.wikipedia.org..., http://en.wikipedia.org..., and http://en.wikipedia.org...), Quackwatch (http://www.quackwatch.org...), and my unverifiable memory of biology lectures and labs. Sorry about that last one, but it's all fairly basic biology and easily researchable on the internet.
Debate Round No. 1
Solarman1969

Pro

I knew I would get a response from someone who is naive on the subject, and is subject to the BARRAGE of out and out lies put out by the FDA to try to convince all of us that somehow this miracle of science is false.

NOTE : Wikipedia is NOT a complete or trustworthy source on most things

the common cold is quite common, and there are more virulent forms of pneumonia which can be quite debilitating or deadly. Strep, E Coli and so on cause immense suffering and death yearly to millions, especially in the winter time.

Now I will point out I have NO MOTIVE here financially speaking- I am not heavily invested in the Silver market (you only use like 1/4 OZ per year or 1$ worth of Silver) and I dont care if you buy or make a collidal silver generator or not

you are free to buy the government DISINFORMATION , or look at the evidence I present here and the anectdotal eveidence, which you can believe or not.

NOW TO YOUR POINT #1 - where you basically lose the debate !

Now, on to the substance of the debate.
I concede a single point of yours: silver is capable of killing bacteria. In fact, silver nitrate (not colloidal silver) is still used in neonatal centers to prevent eye infection. Silver can interfere with certain pathways that bacteria use to produce ATP, the chemical used by cells to harness the energy derived from breaking down sugars, fats, and proteins. (If you have the background, my source is http://aem.asm.org......, but it's unfortunately rather technical.)

To be perfectly clear, I concede nothing beyond what was in the previous paragraph.

Now I am going to direct anyone here interested in the discussion further to read the paper by Yamanaka, Hara , and Kudo "Bactericidal Actions of a Silver Ion Solution on Eshchechila Coli..." APPLIED AND ENVIRONMENTAL MICROBIOLOGY Nov 2005 p 7589 - 7593.

link http://aem.asm.org...

I am not going to assume your intelligence or ability to understand the concepts here, but read it anyway ! (from a Chem E)

This proves the point that SILVER IONS ie. COLLOIDAL SILVER is a DEADLY FOE of the worst pathogens known to man

I am going to put forth some more links here to buttress my case, but first and anecdotal story, from my life, totally true

SOLARMANS ANECDOTAL STORY ABOUT MAKING HIS WIFE A BELIEVER

When I was dating my wife, she didnt beleive me about Collidal Silver, and her Doctor dad convinced her it was quackery- like you assert

She was coming down with Strep throat, which she commonly got before she met me, being a social worker in SF and dealing with sick people all the time.

She had white bumbs all over one side of her throat- a sure sign, a fever, and aches.

I told her to PLEASE ! PLEASE ! just drink som silver I made her. with my little hokey beat up homemade generator, consisting of 3 9V rechargable batteries (hot distilled water for 15 min)

She said- well I am going to the doctor tomorow- I have nothing to lose

I put some licorice tea in it to take away the metallic taste.

2 hours- 2 HOURS later the bumps were GONE

the symptoms were gone completely the next morning and did not return.

I have not had a cold or any other illness in 15 years. I regularly drink a glass every other day or soin the winter, and less so in the summer.

My kid (6 months) just had a cold and we put some in his food and his cold is gone (took me a couple days to convince her it is safe for the baby)

Dittos for my seven year old (I sneak it in her smoothies)

NOW BACK TO SOME TECHNICAL STUFF

Ok, so we have clearly establshed that Silver has excellent antibiotic properties, and that we understand the mechanism by which it works

Now , cant there be something WRONG with it ?

I mean, most other metals are TOXIC arent they?

Well, not really, but thats a different discussion.

For example, Magnesium, Iron and Selenum, Sodium and Potassium are critical

Back to Silver.

HISTORY OF HEALTH USES OF SILVER

http://www.purestcolloids.com...

please read this and get back to me

Finally onto the STUPID ARYGRIA thing

this is DISINFORMATION

Please show me an example of someone who has blue skin from collidal silver.

the cases you see, such as Rosemary whats her name, are FALSE. PERIOD.

She was challenged to debate , and never showed.

The FEDS spend an AMAZING amount of time on this CLEAR DISINFORMATION CAMPAIGN

YOU HERE SPREAD THE LIES by the FDA and others

Third, silver is dangerous. ( a lie) There is a condition called argyria caused by too much exposure to silver. (not true) It is generally not life threatening. (doesnt exist) It simply causes you to irreversibly turn blue as silver accumulates in your skin, and can affect your vision as silver becomes deposited in the fluid inside of your eye. (There may actually be more serious effects. Since argyria is rare, few human studies have been done, but experiments on guinea pigs suggest that they may interfere with normal growth if used before maturity.) (please site REAL PEER REVIEWED JOURNAL ARTICLE to prove your not just repoeating crap you heard somewhere)

This is REAL SCIENCE DEBATE HERE, not YOUR OPINION, undergrad.

And, as a note specifically toward Solarman, making it on your own increases the chance of getting argyria compared to buying "professionally" made concoctions.

(thanks, undergrad Biology Student ,for your condescending concern from a MSME in REAL SCIENCE Chemical and Mechanical Engineering)

My sources were the Wikipedia articles on colloidal silver, argyria, and antiviral drugs

this says it all - you just wiki'd "collidal siver" - nice try

Heres your coups de gras of IGNORANCE

In fact, not one study has ever shown it to be effective in treating, preventing, or otherwise benefiting people suffering from, any disease. In fact, colloidal silver has been shown to be largely ineffective against bacteria. In 1995, an advocate of colloidal silver tested various brands available. Only half of them showed any ability to halt bacterial growth on a petri dish, and none of them showed any strength beyond that of hand soap.

Where is your 1995 PEER REVIEWED ARTICLE FROM A SCIENTIFIC JOURNAL

MORE SCIENCE

SILVER IONS, COLLIDAL SILVER, SILVER NITRATE and other COMPOUNDS

To be clear, Silver Nitrate will turn your skin BLACK. Other ionic compounds such as AGCl have little or no effectiveness and can be mildly toxic if ingested in LARGE quantities

One needs to understand a bit of Chemistry to know the difference between different forms of silver and silver compounds- you are obviously confused here

BOTTOM LINE

You have read and I cite a detailed PEER REVIEWED article showing Silver's incredible antibiotic effects

I also cite this NON TECHNICAL but very good article- take it for what its worth

http://www.all-natural.com...

I also cite my personal 15 year history with CS and witness its effectiveness

I also point out : Why do you think the Royals invented SILVERWARE?

I also point out- what do you or anyone have to lose by listening to me?

And in order to win this debate, undergrad-peon-at-small-university-with healthy-skeptical-mind (AKA Dreaming Bearcat)

You need to post a PEER REVIEWED ARTICLE FROM A REAL JOURNAL that DISPROVES MY THESIS that being :

Colloidal Silver is an incredibly effective and safe home health remedy
DreamingBearcat

Con

First of all, I'm fairly sure that with your "undergrad-peon-at-small-university" thing, you violated the code of conduct (T2: http://www.debate.org...). Either way, it was rather unsporting.

Anyway, you have the burden of proof exactly opposite. In science, you assume the null hypothesis (in this case, that colloidal silver is not an anti-microbial agent) until otherwise proven. You have the burden of proof in this argument, not me.

Rebutting your arguments:
"Wikipedia is NOT a complete or trustworthy source on most things."
Really? I thought you could trust everything on the internet. Of course Wikipedia should be regarded with skepticism. Considering that one can look at the sources cited, though, it is pretty easy to verify. (For example, this PEER-REVIEWED article from the Department of Dermatology at UC-Davis http://dermatology.cdlib.org....)

"Now I am going to direct anyone here interested in the discussion further to read the paper by Yamanaka, Hara , and Kudo "Bactericidal Actions of a Silver Ion Solution on Eshchechila Coli..." APPLIED AND ENVIRONMENTAL MICROBIOLOGY Nov 2005 p 7589 - 7593."
Read my argument again, specifically, the second paragraph where I cited the same article. I've read it, I understand it, and you're full of it. First of all, the paper talks about silver ions, not silver colloids. (I'm not going to bother explaining the difference since it would take a long time, Wikipedia if you're interested. I guarantee those articles are accurate.) Colloids can't do anything to bacteria since the particles are too large to penetrate the membrane.

Second, the article was about E. coli in vitro, that is, not in an animal. Chemicals act entirely differently when they're in a human body, so that study proves nothing other than that contact with silver ions can kill bacteria. I mean, rubbing alcohol is a wonderful antibacterial, they can't develop resistance. The problem is that you can't use it to fight internal infection since it kills human cells too. A lot of promising antibiotics, anti-cancer drugs, and antivirals have failed to pan out because the body simply can't deliver them to the site of the infection/tumor, as well. Just because something works on a culture in the lab doesn't mean it does in a human body.

Now, regarding your anecdotes:
Aside from the fact that anecdotes aren't exactly the bedrock of science, which I'd expect someone with an MSME in chemical and mechanical engineering to know, (By the way, how can you have a "masters of science in mechanical engineering" (MSME) in chemical engineering?), all of your cases are pretty easily explained.

In the case of your wife, there are a lot of things that can cause her symptoms other than strep throat. Viral tonsillitis, for example. Also, if your wife had a bug such as influenza, aspirin (especially non coated aspirin like in aspirgum) can cause white patches. Both of those can disappear in hours.

In the case of your kids: congratulations, your children have functioning immune systems. Colds generally go away in two or three days.

In your case, I'm at a loss, I mean, no one ever goes for fifteen years without an illness. Except for a whole bunch of other people who take care of themselves and have good immune systems.

Two remaining points; first, argyria. In this case, I'm just going to post a couple links, since they speak for themselves.
http://news.bbc.co.uk... (Media report, and since drug companies can't legally advertise on the BBC, don't even think about claiming they're biased.)
http://www.rotten.com... (Not peer reviewed, but demonstrative.)
http://dermatology.cdlib.org... (Peer reviewed, by dermatologists at UC-Davis)

Finally, what do people have to lose by using colloidal silver? A great deal, actually.

First of all, it's a ridiculous expense ($25/week, in the first result on Google), since very few people make it on their own, and doing so increases the risk of argyria.

Second, there's the permanent disfigurement (and possible vision impairment) of argyria.

Third, and most important, by using false treatments, you increase the likelihood of allowing a serious disease. If your wife really did have strep throat and you had convinced her to use colloidal silver instead of going to the doctor, she would likely have developed antibodies, and the next time she acquired a strep infection, gotten rheumatic fever.

Colloidal silver is also marketed as a treatment for AIDS and cancer (in both cases, with no evidence supporting and basic biology opposing), which is likely to discourage patients who could otherwise be saved from getting treatments that actually work. It's simply a despicable practice to prey on the fears of the truly ill, and even worse when it prevents them from getting real treatment.

One more thing that I just saw in your argument:
"I also point out : Why do you think the Royals invented SILVERWARE?"
Um, I don't know. Maybe because silver's a precious metal and they wanted to show off how rich they were?
Debate Round No. 2
Solarman1969

Pro

I have proven my case- colloidal silver is a powerful antibiotic

and it is "free" if you make it yourself

you have done nothing to disprove either of these points, and your insistence on the Arygria thing, which is BS in my opinion, or at least rare and harmless at worst, is not part of the debate

again (1) Silver is a powerful incerdible remedy for destroying pathogens

(2) it is basically free if you make it yourself (unless you want to pay $$$ for someone else to make it for you which is stupid IMO)

I have proven my points, with Peer Reviewed Documents , and silver is only 4$ per OZ and water is free

so you have clearly lost the arguments.

You are trying to change the arguments to

(1) Silver is dangerous - which is false- even by the scary articles you present

(2) there are a bunch of hucksters selling it for expensive and claiming that it will cure everything under the sun

So what? the only reason why these hucksters are doing so because it based on the truth that collidal silver is an effective antibiotic

If folks want to believe the government, and that you always have to rely on their expensive and sketchy drugs and surgeries to cure yourself, go for it

My point of view is that we are much more capable of keeping ouselves healthy on our own. Collidal silver is one of those ways, along with hanging upside down, cleansing, proper diet, excercise , good supplements and many other means.

I close with the question - if it is true what I say that Silver is effective , and free, wouldnt the government have an interest in trying to fight it?

Again, Bearcat, you will have to disprove (1) that CS is an effective pathogen destructor, or (2) that it is free (or very very cheap)

all these side issues you bring up are irrelevant to this debate.
DreamingBearcat

Con

First I will address the burden of proof. Solarman has presented an extraordinary clam, namely that a single chemical can cure all pathogen-caused diseases known to man. This puts the burden of proof on him, just as the burden of proof would be on me were I to claim that AIDS is not caused by the HIV virus. Not only has he failed to prove his claim, I have cast more than enough doubt on his arguments to justify disregarding them.

In his final argument, Solarman claimed that he had proved two essential points: first, that colloidal silver is an effective anti-pathogen and second that it is nearly free. The second point is technically true, if you ignore the fact that "home-made" colloidal silver greatly increases the risk of argyria's permanent disfigurement and vision impairment, which I will return to.

He has utterly failed to prove the first point. He relies on three sources. The first, at http://aem.asm.org..., is a peer-reviewed article that shows that, in a petri dish, silver ions (not colloidal silver) can kill E. coli. However, as I have pointed out repeatedly, the ability to kill bacteria in a petri dish is not evidence of disease-fighting ability. Vodka is quite good at killing bacterial cultures, but I wouldn't recommend drinking yourself into a stupor to cure the flu. Similarly, many antibiotics, cancer drugs, and antivirals that have shown promise in the lab have failed in human trials because the human body is drastically different from a petri dish. No studies have ever shown that colloidal silver can treat any disease.

The other two sources are quite easily dismissed. One cites no sources, and therefore is not in the least bit useful, and the other cites only pre-penicillin articles and and article published by "Science Digest," a magazine that made itself famous with its articles "proving" the existence of UFOs and spontaneous human combustion.

Solarman claims that I have tried to change the topic by raising questions about silver's safety. Well, if you ever get cancer, I have something guaranteed to kill every cancer cell in your body. Potassium cyanide. Safety goes hand in hand with efficacy.

The reason I mentioned the "hucksters" is because Solarman asked what people have to lose by using silver. I repeat my arguments: it's expensive to buy, it carries the risk of disfigurement and vision impairment, and the false belief that silver can cure diseases encourages people to delay actual treatment.

Now, we come to the weighing of evidence. Solarman has failed to prove a single point of his, and has retreated from several of them. At first he claimed that silver can kill all viruses, then dropped that argument (and, then, interestingly, called people who claim silver can kill HIV "hucksters"). I, on the other hand, have given several reasons and pieces of evidence showing that silver does not work. We see that there is no possible way for silver to interfere with virus reproduction and there is no evidence for its claimed ability to treat bacterial infection.

Moreover, despite Solarman's borderline-paranoid denials, argyria is a real condition, and a common result of ingesting silver. As Solarman demanded, I provided a peer-reviewed paper on argyria, which he promptly ignored. Beyond argyria, as I pointed out, it is quite probable that ingestion of large amounts of silver can interfere with normal growth rates.

In sum, Solarman has failed to prove any of his points (as is his obligation as proponent of the theory), and I have proved all of mine.
Debate Round No. 3
14 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by cookielove13 7 years ago
cookielove13
Apparently solarman (in all of his apparent wisdom) has never heard of the term "ad hominem," meaning "to the man." Unfortunately Solarman's use of this tactic really ruined the debate for him, in my opinion. Instead of presenting facts that are well-supported by science (which I feel he presented very little of), he chose to slam his opponent.

If you indeed are as intelligent as you claim to be (which I am doubtful of), I would be wary of making the same mistake in future debates, solarman.
Posted by DreamingBearcat 9 years ago
DreamingBearcat
You know, I'm fairly sure you're not supposed to use the comments section for debating. The debate had three rounds, all of which are over.
Posted by shelbih 9 years ago
shelbih
oh well im just saying it was on the news. thats all.
Posted by Solarman1969 9 years ago
Solarman1969
Dont buy the propaganda about the blue people- the government is starting to get into full press mode to try and disinfo CS

I have been using it for 15 yearsand I AINT BLUE(just made some today and feel much better : ) )

If the guvmint had ANY legit way to ban it- they would - but they cant (how can you ban silver?)

So they trot out this LIE about blue people - what a laugh!

I saw one on CNN and the guy said he still uses it anyway !

LOL!

there are 1000s of offical products that are patented that use silver as a germ fighter and pahtogen destroyer

I am only trying to help!

merry christmas

solarman
Posted by shelbih 9 years ago
shelbih
i scanned through the debate.
but on the news the other night, there was this old man and he had turned blue! yes blue...a weird strange color.
and i looked at the story and i was like, is something messed up with the color on my tv.
well the story was that he had taken colloidal silver for 14 years and the silver in it had turned him blue.
it was the strangest thing i have ever seen or heard of in my entire life. :/
Posted by Stephmom 9 years ago
Stephmom
Maturity and wisdom, Solarman, my dear. Einstein was right, of course. Not enough people think for themselves, or know how to effectively question all the information presented to them every day as fact. Having heard that from my vet,(she was giving me advice on the fly,having only looked it up in a hurry, with the understanding that we would both look into it further-- notice my question mark)I will certainly do my own investigation regarding the research that has been done on colloidal silver. I will also not be using sources hand-picked for me by parties on either side of the debate. Having said that, logic is logic. Reason is reason. Like a geometry proof, one argument needs to follow cleanly from the last, passionately perhaps, but IMPERSONALLY, or you've lost the debate. Lost said debate is what you have done, with style.
Posted by Solarman1969 9 years ago
Solarman1969
Stephmom, you are 41 years old and obviously have the maturity to search the facts for yourself

CS will NOT cause liver damage, except in HIGH overdoses, and there is even no real data on that

I am a chemical engineer with a background in pharmacology and biochem and I personally have been using CS for 15 years very effectively

Since I am not promoting any particular manufacturer and in fact recommend just making you own (there are excellent references on the web on Conc vs time and temp and voltage and RMS or DC current)

I try and serve others with the knowledge I have so that people cn be healthier and the world a better place

Einstein said

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
Posted by Solarman1969 9 years ago
Solarman1969
Whatever, Lindsay, another undergrad expert

You can try and demean me at every oppotunity- it only makes you look like the sniping loser

Bottom line is that undergrad is peanuts compared to graduate level study

lie about me , your favorite Stalinist ploy , try and paint me as a criminal and a fraud

you probably dont even know who Josef Stalin was.

sooner or later after enough time , discerning people will see though your immaturity and inability to argue facts

Please feel free to go on attacking me and I will keep starting interesting debates and ignoring you , as I have ignored all the other hostile lying liberals I have encountered in the past when I question their world views

Like I said to Ms Bearcat- feel free to buy the governments lies in this case and suffer for not takiing advantage of this fabulous free resource for health

Thats what I call throwing the baby out with the bathwater
Posted by lindsay 9 years ago
lindsay
Well done, dreamingbearcat. Solarman loses again, for being far too rude and demeaning in yet another debate. Solarman, if you like CS and you think it works for you, great for you. No need to force it down anybody else's throat, especially someone who actually IS studying science in the college level. The way you demeaned DreamingBearCat was disgusting.

DreamingBearCat,
If it's at any consolation to you, Solarman has bragged in other debates that he got a "1600" (perfect score) on his SAT and took several SAT's for friends (a crime, identity theft, not something to be proud of). He also claims that he attended UC Berkeley.

As a nursing student, I know my fair share of science. I can tell who knows their stuff and who doesn't, and I know that DBC knows what he's talking about.

Not to mention Solarman buys into ridiculous theories like "all stem cell research comes from dead babies" and has a really poor way of presenting himself in an intelligent manner. He gets so passionate in each debate, that he becomes hostile, rude, demeaning, and stupid. He can't type correctly, his syntax and vocabulary are horrid, and he all around sounds like a fool.

Way to go, dreamingbearcat! Way to put this joke of a man in his place!
Posted by Stephmom 9 years ago
Stephmom
DreamingBearcat, your rhetoric skills serve you well, and your facts are solid. Don't forget that whitish bumps in the back of the throat can also be lymph tissue, not pus. Strep isn't confirmed without a swab (just an aside, and another point in your favor). My vet says not to use colloidal silver in my cats because it can cause liver damage?
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Vote Placed by Ineffablesquirrel 9 years ago
Ineffablesquirrel
Solarman1969DreamingBearcatTied
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