The Instigator
JimShady
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Virgil_NZ
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Committing homosexual acts may lead to God killing you.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/11/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 502 times Debate No: 94626
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (9)
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JimShady

Pro

ALERT! ALERT! This debate will be strictly for Muslims, Christians, or Jews. Any other religions or atheists out there should not accept this debate. Reasons being that this is strictly a religious, moral matter involving Yahweh, the Trinity, and/or Allah.

If you are not in this category, know that I'm not discriminating. I simply want the point of view of someone who worships the same God as me.

This debate is also not open to any people who feel that homosexual acts are allowed by God's law.

If you accept my challenge without being eligible, you lose automatically.

There will be four rounds, and my job is to explain why those who violate the law of God are not exempt from fatal justice. Your job is to explain why those who commit this grave sin are free from guilt and possibility of punishment.

(Please note to all those who think i want to murder homosexuals: I do not. I am not arguing that they SHOULD be murdered. I'm simply saying that going against God's commands opens you up to God's wrath. It's the same as if a murderer is killing straight people: the muderer is at the mercy of God.)

For those who do not meet the qualifications of this debate, feel free to leave a comment. I understand I will be viciously attacked for this, and I'm honestly a little worried. But bring it on.
Virgil_NZ

Con

Let me tell you why some of those who commit this grave sin are free from guilt and the possibility of punishment. In the new testament Paul talks about how the more a person attempts to adhere to the law, the more the law points out where they are wrong. So if a person goes to the bible and applies it to their life, the measuring stick if you will, will find that they cannot escape this judgement you are talking about. So I agree with you there.

The issue here is that you are voicing your argument from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It is either black or white. It is either good or evil. But is God really like that? It might be difficult to comprehend, but God is greater than us in every way. He is not limited by the confinements of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil - he created it. Yet here you are acting as judge, like a Pharisee, saying that every homosexual (who violates the law of God) will not be exempt from fatal judgement.

Now if God is above our ways and thoughts, and is a far superior judge than us, I would propose that He would make the best choice when it comes to judgement. In political theory there is a concept called rule of law versus rule by law. It's this idea that either government is under its law, or it uses the law to do what it wants. God is not bound to the law, and does not need to because He is perfect.

We are talking about two things: homosexual acts and God's nature. Can you unequivocally say that you know what God's judgement call will be on every homosexual who has committed homosexual acts? In all honesty you cannot. What if the person was a child, or the person was mentally ill, what if the person had never heard of God or his law. Its never all black and white, but there are gray areas that only a sovereign great God knows how to handle. Not you or me.

What if there is someone that has never heard of God, they've never heard of the bible, and yet finds himself attracted to the same sex and commits acts that, unbeknown to him, violate God's law. I would argue that his ignorance paired with God's perfect judgement and mercy may not see that person fall under God's wrath.

You might say: well he still violated the law: so ignorance is no excuse!

But then we're not really talking about homosexual acts, we're just talking about sin. But in the case of sin, many theologians would argue and say that ignorance is a claim appropriate for infants, children, and mentally disabled, and that God would judge fairly those who had never heard the gospel by their own conscience. So ignorance does not equate to punishment.

Let's say for example you were able to keep every law. Only Jesus lived perfectly, but let's say for argument's sake that you did. Even if you did, I propose that there would still be hidden laws that you would violate. How do I know this? The Sabbath comes under the ten commandments. However, it was actually a secret only known to God. Nehemiah 9:14 says: "You made known to them your holy Sabbath and gave them commands, decrees and laws through your servant Moses." The Israelites had no idea about the law until God told them. What other ordinances and decrees do you suppose God kept hidden? The Israelites were under the strain of the law, and each new precept only added to their weight. But we know that God had a greater plan in mind when he designed the law.

And this leads me to my main point. He made the law. He is above it. And when we talk about the law we are talking about the one who made it. He will make the best decision on every homosexual act, and I propose that some people will, by the mercy of God, not be punished, but be judged true, by a standard we will never comprehend, and be welcomed into His loving arms.
Debate Round No. 1
JimShady

Pro

I realize that not everything is good or evil. Picking up a pencil and setting it down is neither bad nor good. But this discussion is about, and I think we can agree, an evil matter. There is such thing as truth, and people can't bend it to the way they want it. The truth is that homosexual acts are wrong and sinful. They are not good. They are not neutral/gray. They are evil.

It's alright calling me a Pharisee. After all, they were holy men you followed God's law. I am challenging a person on God's law, as they did. A big difference between me and a Pharisee, though, is that I won't crucify those you have homosexual sex. Also, I do not deny acting as a judge. I am judging acts and deeds, though, not people. The only one who can judge people is God. Am I saying that homosexuals who violate the law of God will not be exempt from fatal judgment? Of course I am, and that is fair. God, who is above you and I, can choose how He punishes.

You say that "He [God] would make the best choice when it comes to judgment." Of course He would. And what are the choices? Mercy are Justice. We know those are two traits of God [1], and that mercy is the dominant one. That's why not every homosexual who has sex with the wrong gender doesn't get stricken down by God. But, you say the "best choice", implying that God DOES have a choice: mercy or justice. Therefore, the people who are the offenders are NOT exempt! If God wants, He can choose to kill them.

I'll use two examples: one, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is Genesis 18 and 19. I assume you know the story. Sodom is filled to the brim with homosexuals, trying to beak into Lot's house and get "intimate" with the two angels. Even though Abraham tries to convince God not to destroy the city, He does. Therefore, this is a documented time when those who broke God's law were punished with death.

For my next example, which is way more up to date, we look at Orlando. I understand that saying the 49 who died deserved it is not right. It's not up to me if they deserved to be killed (also, it's worthy to note that there was some victims who were straight and a good number who did not have sex with the same gender [2].). I also understand that saying God had a role in their deaths will probably open me up to a lot of insults about being a homophobe. But hear me out: I believe that God DID play a part in this, and it could've been a message. We've seen God in the past kill intimate homosexuals before... why I ask could it not happen again? It's not out of the question. God might've chose to shown His justice to them.

So, heading away from my examples and back to your argument, you say that "God is not bound to the law, and does not need to because He is perfect." Right. Wouldn't you say that a perfect, supreme being, though, would make a correct law? You might say that the Old Testament law is wrong in that we should not execute those who curse against their mother or father (Leviticus 20:9), those who work on the Sabbath (I at the moment cannot find it in the bible, but if you challenge this teaching, I will make sure to find it. Trust me, it's in there), or other sins. One of these, and I will quote this verbatim from The New American Bible, is "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13). That is God speaking to Moses.

But you say that is not right? You're saying God's law is not right? We may live in different times, and the New Testament gives light to the more merciful side of God. Yet, keep in mind, he has a side of justice. God has never refuted that working on the Sabbath is wrong. He has never gone back and said cussing at parents is okay. God has never refuted his teaching that homosexual acts are wrong. He may have different ways of dealing with it (i.e. mercy), but do not forget that God is also full of justice. He can kill homosexuals/sinners if he wants.

In your 4th paragraph "Can you unequivocally say that you know what God's judgement [sic] call will be on every homosexual who has committed homosexual acts? In all honesty you cannot." I wholeheartedly agree with you. I don't know what God's judgment will be. I never said I did. I'm saying I know what his choices are, mercy or justice, and God is fully capable of exerting justice.

You pull forth examples of people who are mentally ill or have not heard of God's law against intimacy of homosexuals. This would be a position where God is merciful. God most likely not punish them with death (also worthy to note he will most likely not punish those who are familiar with the Bible with death. It's a possibility, though). This falls perfectly in league with my mercy/judgment argument, not your black and white argument. Something is either a sin or not. It is up to God to exert mercy or justice.

Truly, ignorance of the law in terms of sin is a fair case. Those who do not know they are breaking God's command should not be punished. But those who are aware must realize God has a side of justice. After all, there's a place called heaven and a place called hell.

"Only Jesus lived perfectly." Small factual error, of no relevance to the debate, but Mary was also perfect and without sin [3], at least according to Catholics. (By the way, you wouldn't mind sharing your religion, would you? I'm Roman Catholic.) Back to the debate. As for your hidden laws that I would violate, this might be true. But we know God has revealed everything necessary for us to achieve salvation [4]. So, we shouldn't have to worry about unknown sins, God would be merciful.

Your main point is entirely true, unfortunately it sides with my argument. You say "He will make the best decision on every homosexual act, and I propose that some people will, by the mercy of God, not be punished, but be judged true..." Yes, EXACTLY! God has a decision, and he will make the best decision. The two decisions are mercy and justice. At some points, be it Sodom or possibly Orlando, the best decision is justice. Those who commit homosexual acts and are not ignorant of their sin must be wary: God has a decision to kill them or not.

Sources:
1. http://apologeticspress.org...
2. http://www.advocate.com...
3. http://www.catholic.com...
4. http://biblehub.com...
Virgil_NZ

Con

Sodom and Gomorrah is an easy example because it presents a case of sin = punishment. The Old Testament is full of accounts of God serving justice, including, the flood, the Israelites that looked into the arc of the covenant, etc. It didn"t matter who they were, whether a King: turned into an animal, or a prophet"s servant, who took gold he shouldn"t have and was cursed with leprosy.

When Job was stricken by Satan (allowed by God), he was given no closure. He didn"t see or hear the discussion Satan had with God behind closed doors, nor is it revealed to him at the end. In other words, God does what he wants. Everything: the devil, the world, Job " everything revolves around God.

The fact is we all deserve death. Some would say it was unjust that God hardened Pharaohs heart. But Pharaoh didn"t deserve life, nor do we, so who are we to question what God does. Does the clay question the maker?

Nevertheless, I do not think its in Gods nature to kill people just to showcase justice. After the flood God said: "Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done. As long as the earth endures, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night will never cease." (Genesis 8:21-22) And in Matthew 5 Jesus said: He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

God is not in the business of sending plagues; in actual fact God loves people. If God played a part in Orlando, it was only because God plays a part in everything. He loved everyone that was shot down in that club, and I would argue, He did not want them dead at that point. ""God" wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4). ""the Lord" is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)

You bring it back to the law in your argument and reference both the moral law and the judicial law side by side. Some of those laws were only applicable to their culture and time. Obviously we do make sacrifices any longer because the ultimate sacrifice has been made at the cross. Furthermore, the law was for the Jews not the gentiles (with minor exceptions). More than likely if we lived back then, we would be part of the pagan world. So its not like we can apply all of that law to our lives. We"re not Jews. However it does say in Timothy, the law is good for instruction. It"s there to help us, not to live by. If we try to live by it, we will die by it.

In Romans 2 it says: "indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the Law, do by nature what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the Law, since they show that the work of the Law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them."

So you would have to argue that all those that commit homosexual acts have a conscience that accuses them. Can you 100% say that in every case and every culture and in every scenario, the conscience will always accuse them? If it defends them then they will be cleared and not be fatally judged.

You go on to say that God has never refuted the law. Your implied conclusion is that it"s still in effect today. The issue is that you totally missed the Jesus link. Jesus said that it is now a heart issue; its no longer about wether you did or didn"t commit a sexual act, like the adulteress about to get stones, it"s about the heart condition. If you hate him then its like you"ve murdered him in your heart.

"But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart." 1 Samuel 16:7

You finish your argument with a false dichotomy, justice or mercy. One reason a sinner will not face fatal judgment is because we are all sinners. "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8). Homosexuality acts constitutes sin, but we are all sinners. Where does that leave us? It leaves us with the third option: Grace! Grace, by Jesus, will see a man who commits sin cleansed and avoid fatal punishment.

Side note on Mary:
In terms of your small deviation towards Mary"s sinlessness before the birth of Jesus I would say this. This idea comes straight from Church tradition, as you are probably aware, as does the concept of the trinity. I would argue that there"s more scriptural evidence for the trinity than the Immaculate Conception. It"s not an issue I"m well informed on. At best you could argue for an equivalency with Enoch (who was not because God took him), or Elijah (who was taken away in a chariot of fire). Romans seems to indicate however, that no one is righteous, not even one.
Debate Round No. 2
JimShady

Pro

Your initial paragraph gives other instances where people were punished because of other reasons than homosexual intimacy. I know, gay intimacy is not the only sin worthy of death. But it is the topic of this debate, that's why I'm not bringing up other cases.

Your second paragraph states that God does what He wants. Yes, and what He wants is goodness and justice. If God can do what He wants, He can strike down those who commit sin. That is the whole point of my argument, which you fail to grasp.

We all deserve death indeed. God grants mercy still, but in some instances, He doesn't. In these instances, God offered mercy plenty of times. God's mercy never ends unless you feel you can't be forgiven (sin against the Holy Ghost). This is why God strikes down those who sin, because they don't want forgiveness (Sodomites). I don't question what God does, I approve of His will. I am simply pointing out God has a choice to grant mercy or justice.

Not his nature? In Exodus, His final plague was killing all the first born of Egyptians (and animals [exempt if your door had blood of a lamb]). The Lord made Pharaoh obstinate to showcase His power and godliness. The death of the firstborn could've been prevented if God had not made him obstinate, but God had to show His power. That sounds wrong, but like you said, you are we to question God's ways?

God says He will not destroy ALL living creatures, as in a mass genocide. But from time to time He will take out those who displease him and do not want forgiveness.

"God is not in the business of sending plagues;"... Yes He is. He sent ten in Exodus. It's arguable that terrible tragedies like Hurricane Katrina and the World Wars were God's way of sending a message. I'm not saying they were for sure, but it's not to be ruled out. I agree God loves all people. But by committing grave sin while aware of it, you are basically saying "I don't love you, God." God asks for love in return. This is not a difficult task. But if not, you are sent to perish in Hell, possibly going there a bit early thanks to God's omnipotence. It is true He wants all to be saved. But if a sinner in return does not want to be saved and commits sin such as homosexual sex, God can serve justice. He has patience (When Abraham was pushing God not to destroy Sodom because of the few good people there), but his patience is not everlasting (He destroyed Sodom, after all). If his patience was everlasting, no one would go to Hell.

Your culture and time argument is very nice: I agree with you. There's no need for people to murder those you commit sins (God, on the other hand, possess the power and sometimes exorcises it.). However, when you argue that Gentiles and Jews have different laws, I kinda lose my agreement. Just because we differ in religions, we should both not curse at our parents, work on the holy day, or have homosexual sex. But I agree with you on some of the laws: such as no eating pork, the offerings for sin, peace, cereal, etc. I don't think those are necessary in today's world. But the three I stated are.

"So you would have to argue that all those that commit homosexual acts have a conscience that accuses them. Can you 100% say that in every case and every culture and in every scenario, the conscience will always accuse them?" We do know that every person created by God can be saved. Even if they have never heard of God, they can still go to heaven. With that in mind, yes, people who are ignorant of what sin is (homosexual acts) should know what they are doing is wrong. It goes against the natural law. To put it blatantly, they should know that a penis + penis = nothing. On the other hand, penis + vagina = baby (mere biological terms). That is super obvious to any culture out there, and thus they should feel that pleasuring themselves with the wrong sex organs is wrong. So I realize this contradicts my argument a little that God will show mercy on all who are ignorant. Ignorance as an excuse only gets you so far. There comes a time when you know when something is just not right, it's called a conscience, everyone has one, and it tells you homosexual sex is morally wrong. So, I've contradicted myself a bit... luckily, it does not go against my entire thesis, in which God can punish homosexual sinners with death. Even if they know nothing of Jesus's teaching, they should know it is wrong in their minds, and therefore, they are not ignorant. Still, it's there are just a few cases in which ignorance of the sin in homosexual acts can be a crutch. But mostly, people should know it is wrong in their hearts. Just as they know what is right, they should know what is wrong.

On laws such as "Don't work on Sunday (Saturday for Jews)", I could see ignorance playing a part there. Some cultures don't even use the 7 day week.) But honestly, everyone person in the world knows that homosexual sex is just not right. The parts don't fit.

God has never refuted/repealed His law. He has built upon it. Homosexual sex will always be a sin. The punishment inflicted by humans may be different , but it is a sin (with God though, He can do what He wants, and what He wants is good and just.).

I feel that we are arguing to separate Gods here: me, the father, you the son (I assume you are Christian, at this point). The center of Christianity is the Trinity, so God and the Son are one. God seems to be the more justice persona, thanks to the Old Testament, and Jesus seems to be the more merciful persona, thanks to the NT. But they are one. Jesus and God are one, meaning that Jesus, although He speaks out against violence and judgment, is fully capable of justice Himself. Jesus commands that it is not up to us to hate or judge whether people deserve to die. It is up to Him. That is what I'm arguing for. If God wants, He can kill homosexual offenders for their sinfulness and unrepentance.

We are all sinners, but we are not equal in our sin. I know we are not supposed to judge people, but to prove my point, I'm resorting to it. You and I did not kill 6 million Jews, as did Hitler. His sinfulness is far larger. I think that is a safe judgment to make, even if I'm not supposed to. In the case of homosexual sex, this is a grave sin, as it is against the natural law of sexuality that God gave us. Deserving of death? Up to God. You might argue that other sins are graver such as murder, stealing, rape. Tell me, are these practices not accompanied by the possibility of death? God is more involved in the fate of people than you know.

Your third option (by stating there are three options, you acknowledge that one God's options is lethal judgment. Therefore you are agreeing with my argument and contradicting yourself by saying "One reason a sinner will not face fatal judgment..." [paragraph 11].), grace, kinda falls in to the category of forgiveness. Grace to be forgiven. So there are really only two: forgiveness or punishment.

The Mary Side Note: If you are Protestant, it is debatable whether Mary was perfect. However, if you are Catholic, the Immaculate Conception is official Church Dogma [1]. This means it is undisputable, anything less is heresy [2]. Scriptural evidence is a good way to prove these truths, but miracles can also be used (The Saint Bernadette vision of Our Lady of Lourdes in France confirms this dogma, which happened in1854. [3]) Enoch and Elijah were born with original sin. [4]

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13). I want you to address this in round 3. You ignored it in round 2. It is God's exact words, condemning those who commit homosexual acts to death. It could not be clearer in my favor.

Sources:
1.https://www.ewtn.com...
2.https://en.wikipedia.org...
3.http://www.medjugorjeusa.org...
4.http://www.reformationtheology.com...
Virgil_NZ

Con

"If God can do what He wants, He can strike down those who commit sin."
Agreed.

"God's mercy never ends unless you feel you can't be forgiven."
God's mercy is not dependent on how I feel. How I feel changes day to day. God remains the same, as does His mercy.

"This is why God strikes down those who sin, because they don't want forgiveness"
When does that come into play? Can a 5 year old refuse forgiveness and get struck down? How about a 12 year old? What if a person wants it for a moment but then changes his mind, but then changes back again? It can't come simply down to "because they didn't want it". There's more to it than that. We have to take into account other factors like God's patience.

Exodus does not prove that God is in the business of plagues. It just shows that He can do plagues. If he was in the business then why did Jesus tell his disciples off when they asked about raining fire from heaven on a town that refused him? Jesus always did his Father's will. And His Father's will was not raining down fire on any city that did wrong, or insulted him, or sinned.

"But from time to time He will take out those who displease him and do not want forgiveness."
You frame God like he's capricious. It's clear in the Bible that God will "take out" those who disobeyed Him or His law. A person could be on their way to judgement, when God decides it: either in the moment or later when He decides, but if the person turns to God he will forgive them. A person could commit homosexual acts but turn to God and not be "taken out". Don't let a person's sin get in the way of God's immense patience to that person come to know Him. Remember we're all sinners.

"God asks for love in return. This is not a difficult task. But if not, you are sent to perish in Hell, possibly going there a bit early thanks to God's omnipotence."
Is loving God and sin mutually exclusive? In many ways they are. But how does God deal with someone that loves Him, yet sins because he or she is stricken with an addiction that goes against His word? The person wants to stop, they love God and hate their sin, but their brain is screwed up so that no matter how hard they try they are pulled back to the sin that God hates. How does God deal with that person?

In terms of the Sabbath: Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath (Matt 12:8). So I don't look to a day to obey, I just look to Jesus. Things like the Sabbath and Mary being sinless is all very interesting but they don't affect the tenet of salvation: that is grace through faith in Jesus Christ. "Know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified." (Galatians 2:16).

We can find exceptions to the rule on anything: for example on topic of ignorance. You say its in their mind... unless of course their parents brain washed them into thinking its fine. Which is almost happening these days with the PC left. So ... exceptions to the rules but they can become a little far-fetched.

Homosexual sex will always be a sin.
Agreed.

I think what you're getting at here is that if a person commits homosexual sex, and then he dies either the next day or the next decade, it'll be because of that act. It's like God is saying: "Ha, I got you!"

The fact is we are all deserving of death because we're all sinners. I don't know if you know, but only sinners are going to Heaven. Because only sinners are getting saved. Jesus said "I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." (Luke 5:32). Committing homosexual acts won't lead to God killing you. We're all going to get killed by God.
We're lucky enough to have this time on Earth. It's not like we get that long here anyway.
"Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes." (James 4:14).

Life is but a vapour. There's no sinful act that will hasten your final hour. God knows the number of hairs on your head, and he holds the universe in his hands. "He is before all things, and in him all things hold together." (Colossians 1:17).

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives."
You missed out the next part which says that their bloodguiltiness is upon them. It was a punishment to be carried out by the community at that time, not God. Can you give me an example of God striking down someone for disobeying this commandment, or even the sabbath?

While you're looking for that let me point out that God gave the Jews the law to follow until Jesus showed up. God knew that they couldn't obey the law on stone, it had to be written on their hearts. It's no longer about whether you break this law or that law, it's about whether or not you have repented and asked Jesus into your heart. I believe someone that has in the past committed homosexual acts can be saved. I believe that a person in a homosexual lifestyle, can find Jesus and also be saved. Because it's not the sin. No sin is too great for Jesus to wash away.

So will committing homosexual acts lead to God killing you. Absolutely not. We all die and trying to find a causality between someone dying and their sin is irrelevant. We all will die. And whether its now or later - it's still a vapour: here for a moment then gone.

For a homosexual that's found Christ, they will be saved and protected by the blood of Christ - but will eventually die like everyone else.

For a non-christian they're dead anyway.
Hitler wasn't stuck down by God for his sin, and yet I'd argue that the killing of millions of God's original chosen people by Hitler was a worse sin than being a homosexual victim of a gun rampage. Which was carried out in the name of Allah btw, who to equate to the God of Christianity is almost blasphemy. If Hitler was so bad, why didn't God end his life with an "Allahu Akbar"? I'll tell you why, because God doesn't take people out.

And you know what's ironic, Hitler took his own life. So He kills millions of Jews, God doesn't take him out, then he excuses himself with suicide. Yet you think that Katrina or mass murders could be from God? Those events are not evidence of God at work, but evidence of a fallen world where man has dominion over the earth not God.

I think you'll find killing people isn't on God's agenda at the moment. Saving them is.
Debate Round No. 3
JimShady

Pro

This is my last chance to convince you... thanks for the debate, I've learned a lot.

Rebuttals:

1.) "God's mercy is not dependent on how I feel. How I feel changes day to day. God remains the same, as does His mercy."

God does make his judgments on how you feel. And because people are capable of repenting, usually his judgment is mercy. However, there are instances in which he decides to end people, which I'll list later. God's mercy does not remain the same: once you are in hell, you have made up your mind for good to be separate from him, therefore it's impossible to be forgiven once in hell. On Earth, if you feel you can't be forgiven, it is the same way.

2.) "Can a 5 year old refuse forgiveness and get struck down?..We have to take into account other factors like God's patience."

As I stated earlier, ignorance can be an excuse (not for homosexual sex though) in some cases. The age of reason is one. Plus, I don't know of too many instances where 5 year old boys (or girls) "did it" together. Remember, we are talking about one sin in particular, homosexual intimacy. Yes, take into account God's patience I get it. But realize it HAS a boiling point. The people of Sodom, they could've said the next day, "Hey, lets stop molesting men." That's what you argue. And that's true. But God's patience was tried, so he killed them.

3.) "Exodus does not prove that God is in the business of plagues. It just shows that He can do plagues..."

As a matter of fact He is in the business. Another instance in which God was near destroying a city was in the book of Jonah. "...'Forty days more and Nineveh shall be destroyed.' " (Jonah 3:4). As you know, the people of Nineveh repent, and God did not carry out it's destruction.

You may think this scenario is on your side, but it proves that God IS in the business! He was about to do a repeat of Sodom. If anything, this story proves my mercy/justice argument. God can and was about to exert justice, but his merciful side won over. But remember, God was about to destroy Nineveh. The fact that he was, and remember God is never wrong, proves he is in the business. When Jesus does not rain down fire from the heavens on the town, it is just another act of mercy from God. That's it. Not proof for your argument.

4.) "Don't let a person's sin get in the way of God's immense patience to that person come to know Him."

Your whole round 3 is intensely based on God's overwhelming patience. Don't worry, I'm about to show you instances where it ran out, and he killed those who sinned.

Also, you keep pushing scenarios such as 5 year-olds who don't know what a sin is and people who love God but have mental problems. I'm with you. God will grant mercy to them, I agree. But please maintain focus on homosexual sex. Everyone without severe mental problems should know that homosexual sex is wrong. That's why they who commit this sin have a much higher suicide rate. That's why they are always looking for acceptance in this society: because they know what they do is wrong.

5.) You quote this bible verse: "Know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified." (Galatians 2:16).

My response: "My brothers, what good is it to profess faith without practicing it? Such faith has no power to save one, has it?..So it is with the faith that does nothing in practice. It is thoroughly lifeless... do you want proof, you ignoramus [I find this funny], that without works faith is idle? Was not Abraham justified by his works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? There you see proof that faith was both assisting his works and implemented by his works...be assured, then, that faith without works is dead as a body without breath." (James 2: 14-15, 17, 20-22, 26)

To clarify the text, you cannot say "I love and believe in God" and then go break his law by committing murder, stealing, homosexual sex, or other grave sins. It is a contradiction to what you are saying. When you have gay sex, your "faith without works [works meaning NOT having homosexual sex] is dead." James 2:26

6.) Your argument that parents brainwashing their kids to believe homosexual sex is fine is not a proper use of ignorance. Unless you have an IQ of twenty, you know that homosexual sex is unnatural, judging by how it is looked down upon and how the produce reaped is nothing but STDs.

7.) "The fact is we are all deserving of death because we're all sinners...We're all going to get killed by God. We're lucky enough to have this time on Earth. It's not like we get that long here anyway."

We all deserve death, what I'm arguing is that God can choose if whether or not a homosexual deserves death sooner. Yes, we are lucky enough to have this time on Earth. We know an afterlife is coming. But let's face it: we don't want to die. If a murder pointed a gun at you, would you be happy because you were leaving the world? I wouldn't. Personally, I want to maximize my time on Earth as much as possible. After all, it is a gift from God. It is a punishment for God to take it, then replace your soul to Hell. (It'd wouldn't be so bad though if you are a martyr, cause you go to heaven right after.) So yes, we are all going to die, question is when? Many people, probably you, too, would hope it would be many years down the road.)

8.)"Can you give me an example of God striking down someone for disobeying this commandment, or even the Sabbath?"

1.Sodom, direct death from God.
2.Rich man in the Luke 12:16-21 parable. Although it is a parable, God speaks of taking the life from the man.
3.Lot's wife
4.Floods that killed Egyptian army
5.Nadab and Abihu, you offered offensive incense. Killed by fire.
6.Huge numbers of Israelites in Leviticus and Numbers after disobeying God.
7.The ten princes of Israel who were sent to scout but reported badly.
8.Uzzah, touching the arc to prevent it from tipping
9.Herod, struck down by angel for failing to praise God.
10.Ananias and Sapphira, for lying, killed by divine intervention.
11.All of my modern day examples, such as Hitler, but you won't believe those. Never mind.

These and many more can be found on this article from Wikipedia [1]. I know Wikipedia is not a reliable source, but you'll find that the all bible verses it uses for reference are correct. There is your examples that you requested.

9.)"And whether its now or later - it's still a vapour: here for a moment then gone."

When God kills you directly, you go to Hell. If he doesn't kill you directly, you have a chance. So your vapor argument is down, because it has an extension of eternity in heaven or hell.

10.)"For a homosexual that's found Christ, they will be saved and protected by the blood of Christ - but will eventually die like everyone else."

Those you don't find Christ will not be saved and protected by the blood of Christ- they will eventually die like much different from others. The people and Sodom were killed by raining fire. Me and you probably won't.

11.)"Hitler wasn't stuck down by God for his sin...Which was carried out in the name of Allah btw, who to equate to the God of Christianity is almost blasphemy. If Hitler was so bad, why didn't God end his life with an "Allahu Akbar"? I'll tell you why, because God doesn't take people out."

12.)The Hitler one is disputable, like I said I'm not even sure. God of Christianity and God of Islam are the same. We have different interpretations. And God does take people out, I just gave you plenty of proof.

13.)True, Katrina is not evidence of God at work. It is my presumption. But man does not have dominion over the Earth, God still does.

Conclusion:

God's agenda is saving people, but when they refused to be saved, his agenda is justice.

Sources:

1.http://rationalwiki.org...
Virgil_NZ

Con

I'll just finish by saying that I recognize that ever since Jesus died on the cross things have changed. I think that as sins have become more and more evil God's grace has increased with them. We will all face judgement but we cannot correlate tragedies to God's will. It is men at work in a sinful world, and a world groaning for the return of Christ that sees tragedies take place. When Herod killed all the first born boys, it was his own doing not God's. Although God knew he would do it, that doesn't mean God was culpable for the crime. We put our hope in God, we don't put our fear (phobos) in him.

I think this debate has reminded us that God is worth fearing (yirah) and respecting. This is something that perhaps is lost on many Christians and needs to be reaffirmed. God is supreme and we should fear Him because there's still the possibility that he could take one of us out like He did with Ananias and Sapphira, or Herod (eaten by worms). I take this as a reminder to be more reverent to God and recognize that He can kill if He desires.

At the same time I recognize that the NT is not full of people being struck down, whether they were Christian or Jew, whether they were searching or lost. There's a trend that He's not doing it in the New Testament like he did it in the old.

Your title argument is "Committing homosexual acts MAY lead to God killing you." That has to be the biggest MAY in history. Because while it is in God's power to do so He does not. So I agree that yes God MAY kill someone but I'd argue that the power to do is constrained by Jesus.

"For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom He wishes." John 5:22
The reason God isn't striking everyone down left right and center is because Jesus loves us so much.

"And He has given Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man."
Jesus is the one who executes Judgement now.

"Then Jesus declared, "For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind may see and those who see may become blind." (John 9:39)
At this time, while we are alive, His judgement is not to scold people, but to open their eyes to God.

"Furthermore, the Father judges no one, but has assigned all judgment to the Son." (John 5:22)
The reason Jesus will judge is because he lived as a man. He faced temptations as a man. So he can judge from a perspective of a man, with empathy and authority. So he knows what a gay man goes through. He understands. So God has put off judging the world like he used to, and has entrusted it to His son. Isn't that awesome!

I think the main thing we can take away from this is that God is real and powerful. He can kill people, but does it rightly. I see that individual homosexual acts, while grave as they are, are not being taken out like Herod or Annais and Sappharia were. It leads me to conclude that its Jesus authority to now judge. The evidence indicates that homosexual acts done today do not tip the scales enough to see God take an individual out as you've described.

Thank you for the chance to debate. You've helped me appreciate God's omnipotence and prompted me to do research around Jesus's role in judgement. I think you did well on your side of the debate. You've changed my mind a little on God's power to enact justice today. So thank you.
Debate Round No. 4
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by JimShady 1 year ago
JimShady
Yeah thug v thug on a very un-hoodlum like and holy topic... but we didn't choose the thug life, the thug life chose us...
Posted by Virgil_NZ 1 year ago
Virgil_NZ
Good debate! Thug vs thug haha!
Posted by JimShady 1 year ago
JimShady
I was running out of characters, that's why I couldn't really go in to detail that much at the end. But, I had my fair share of speech. But once again I'd like to thank you for debating me on this topic. You did very well. And plus, I like your profile pic.
Posted by benshapirohero 1 year ago
benshapirohero
haha... milo vs. ben
Ben always win tho
Posted by BackCommander 1 year ago
BackCommander
I just meant that lethal judgement, though easily decipherable to mean "God killing you" is much more vague than "God killing you." For instance "Committing homosexual acts may lead to God's lethal judgement" could be taken to mean that God would kill all humans, or that God would completely wipe out all life on Earth. It was only kind of vague, I just thought I'd ask for clarification before an opponent did.
Posted by JimShady 1 year ago
JimShady
Yes, that's what I mean. I feel lethal judgement is clear enough, but I'll take your advice. Thanks.
Posted by BackCommander 1 year ago
BackCommander
I can't debate you due to not fitting your criteria, but you should probably better explain what you mean by "lethal judgement" so your opponent doesn't have to accept without that being clarified. Do you mean that you believe God may kill you for homosexual acts?
Posted by JimShady 1 year ago
JimShady
Thanks ThisIsMyUserName333/Batman.
Posted by ThisIsMyUsername333 1 year ago
ThisIsMyUsername333
Nice profile photo.
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