The Instigator
vaporizeislands
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
JRRS
Con (against)
Winning
13 Points

Communism: Are you for it?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
JRRS
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/17/2013 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 780 times Debate No: 42521
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (10)
Votes (2)

 

vaporizeislands

Pro

1. The first round is for acceptance.
2. A forfeit or concession is not allowed.
3. Debate resolution, definitions, rules, and structure cannot be changed without asking in the comments before you post your round 1 argument.

Debate resolution, definitions, rules, and structure cannot be changed in the middle of the debate.Voters, in the case of the breaking of any of these rules by either debater, all seven points in voting should be given to the other person.

Debate Structure

Round 1: Acceptance
Round 2: Presenting all arguments (no rebuttals by con)
Round 3: Refutation of opponent's arguments (no new arguments)
Round 4: Defending your original arguments and conclusion (no new arguments)

I will argue that Communism is one of the beneficial political systems.
JRRS

Con

I accept the challenge and am looking forward to a very interesting debate.

I'll argue that Communism the worst system of all.
Debate Round No. 1
vaporizeislands

Pro

During this passage I will prove how communism will reign superior in the future to capitalism.

The first very important reason is time. Capitalism has only been around properly for a little over 200 years, whereas humans have been around for 200,000 years. For comparison in scale, if humans had been around for 24 hours then capitalism has existed for less than two minutes. It is a blip, and it would be naive to think it would last forever just as most people before us were naive in thinking that feudalism and the divine right of kings was the natural state of things and would last forever.

Space is a very important factor.

Over the past 100 years in particular, capital has been able to use what Beverly Silver and her excelent book 'Forces of Labour' calls "spatial fixes", whereby employers bypass working-class militancy by outsourcing. Workers in car factories in the UK and US, for example, took militant industrial action for years to win good wages and conditions, so employers shut down plants and moved them to places like Brazil and Korea. Where the same thing happened again so they moved again to China, India etc.

However, now, new places for capital to move are running out. And workers in the most low-wage economies like China, Vietnam and Bangladesh are fighting back and starting to win.

Sure, there are some places left for this type of capital to go, like parts of Africa: but not many. So this, which essentially has been the ultimate weapon against the working class over the past century, will no longer be available to employers.

And capital used to be able to expand as the European empires conquered new lands and pulled them into the capitalist system. But now capitalism is a fully global system, with nowhere else to expand to.


War is something that is clearly overlooked too. Most capitalist funded wars lack support such as mass mutinies of American soldiers in Vietnam during the seventies. Even in World War Two which had a high degree of ideological support from much of the population, only 15-20% of soldiers actually fired at the enemy.

Predjudices is also highly important.

Even now all of the ideological bases of the main prejudices which have divided the working class and pitted us against each other: sexism, racism and homophobia, have been completely disproven from a scientific point of view.

Of course on its own unfortunately this is not enough to mean that these prejudices will end. They are all deeply rooted in our economic system, in society and in culture.

However despite the working class as a whole being on the defensive since the 70s, women, black and other non-white people and LGBTQ people have continued to fight prejudiced attitudes and discrimination and have won many significant gains, especially in the Western world, including widespread attitudinal change, the narrowing of pay gaps and anti-discrimination laws which, while they are often weak and badly enforced, do provide some level of protection. In many ways they have forced capitalism itself to change, from crudely using prejudice as a form of social control to attempting to co-opt different oppressed groups into a multicultural, socially liberal capitalism with a friendly face.

That sir is my opening argument.

Good luck.




JRRS

Con

Here I shall prove that Capitalism is the better than Communism.

Economically

Although some capitalism elements are present in other economic systems through history, it only truly developed itself in with the industrial era. With industries, millions of people could stop working for their Lords in Europe(specially in Britain) to work on factories. In the beginning there was some exploitations, but with the increasing amount of enterprises and the market being more and more competitive, wages started going up and working hours down! In Britain, estimates that salaries rose 15% to 150% between 1780 and 1850. And all without unions or labor rights.(1) In Brazil, where I live, when industrial capitalism truly came during the 70's, our life improvement never rose so much. In countries where the economy was basically rural, the industries provided jobs with bigger salaries than in the agriculture and were able to produce goods in mass, thus making prices fall and giving the possibility to more people to acquire it.(2)

Socially

Capitalism improved people standards of living.(3) When agriculture became mechanized, more food was produced, thus their prices fell and made it affordable for poor people and hence improved their health, as they could eat more. The rise of wages (which I explained in my previous argument) enabled people to pay for better health care, afford medicine, school, books and goods that make our lives comfortable, such as televisions or Iphones. It gives the opportunity for people who were born nobodies to become famous liders or entrepeneurs, such as Margaret Thatcher, Barack Obama or S.B. Fuller.

Politically

Capitalism gives political liberty. With better wages provided by free-market, more people can afford reading books and studying on free time, giving them some political knowledge and the possibility to form their political opinion. The better wages also gives people political power against a tyrannical State which would take their money away and give them to other people. Yes, there will always be poor people, but capitalism gave them higher standards of living. More people with more money stop the state from getting too big. Only a big state creates and perpetuate the poverty and take away people's freedom. Capitalism provides people the possibility of choice. They can choose to like the government, to vote, not to vote, candidate themselves and even criticising capitalism! No other system can provide this.

Morally

People are free, not equal. As I stated before, capitalism provides freedom, which is natural to every human being. But equality no. We are naturally unequal. If we have different colors, ages, tastes and opinions, Way should we live in a socioeconomic system where everyone is the same? In capitalism you can choose not to like capitalism, but in socialist countries you can't chose to dislike socialist/communist tyrannical government.

Even the differences between poors and riches are moral. If I was smarter than everybody else on having an idea that would benefit a lot of people, why shouldn't I receive a lot of money from this people? Of course, the poors should be helped, but in true capitalism they are helped by selflessness charity.

The destruction of capitalism

A lot of people have been working on the destruction of free-market economy and true capitalism. This is causing more poverty, more wars and more tyrants. If capitalism ends, we will live under oppressive socialist governments, like the Cuban or North Korean. The growing power of governments and the destruction of capitalism comes from the freedom capitalism gives people. A lot of people don't choose to know how the system work, just to enjoy it's benefits and live their lives, while fanatic left-wingers slowly increase the government power over the economy and destroys this beautiful system.

1 http://www.economics.ox.ac.uk...
2 http://mises.org...
3 idem

I'd like to ask Pro for one more round for new arguments.
Debate Round No. 2
vaporizeislands

Pro

As a Cuban I had a wonderful life in Cuba.

Everyone has the right to health protection and care. The state guarantees this right by providing free medical and hospital care. Cuba has been highly regarded for its medical care and physician expertise. Following the 1959 Cuban Revolution, Fidel Castro and his newly established government made universal health care a top priority. Every Cuban is expected to make a visit to a general practioner every year to examine the patients lifestyle and review health conditions. Other services included community fitness programs for the elderly, localized polyclinics with other minor surgeries at a lower operation cost than major hospitals. Cuba has also the lowest rates of HIV/AIDS due to it's state of the art awareness programs. Capitalism doesn't allow this.

Equality is such a wonderful practice. The United States should probably adopt this method as it's a good step in the right direction to moving a country from a dark-aged period and removing it's hypocritical and pointless constitution. Under a communism people are treated equal regardless of education, financial stability, and so on, in the eyes of the government. Economic boundaries don’t separate or categorize people, a situation that eliminates crime and violence. Where do you see this in the United States? A crime-ridden nation with a complete lack of morality and support of prejudice.

You really think Cuba is an aggressive and oppresive state? Please tell me when you have been there? Unlike you I live I am a communist living in a capitalist state and I have experienced both ways of life and I can assure you communism is far superior to capitalism it has the interests of the common worker and person in mind. Capitalism is a very Darwinian system in which only the fittest can survive, that isn't very good example of morallity is it? It's moraless and promotes laziness within it's ranks.

The way you treat your veterans isn't exactly moral is it? At least in communism every veteran is guranteed a job and a stable household. How many veterans are made homeless in capitalism?

JRRS

Con

On round 1, Pro's first argument doesn't make any sense. She states that capitalism will end naturally by a Darwinist logic that she's a critic of. And guess what: history(not time) prove to us that communism failed. The communist regimes in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union collapsed! China opened it's economy a little bit to capitalism and it's now much better than before. People are not starving to death in China as they did with Mao.(1)

She also talks about how capitalist enterprises moved their factories from countries as the US and UK to the third world. She accuses them of doing this because workers finally got their right and they needed to transfer the factories to places where labour rights does not exist. Yes that is true, because American and European workers earned more money than in the nineteenth century and could afford better education for their children who did not want to work in a factory. If more people have a college degree why the hell they would want to work in a factory. So with less people applying for jobs in factories in the first world, the enterprises needed to get workers to produce somewhere else. They moved to country that still did not know industrial capitalism and that where still very in a rural economy. Millions of people now could leave their lives in the field to work in factories, which, by the way, PAY MORE! And let me remind her that Vietnam and China are great examples. They suffered a lot with famine with the strict socialist economic politics and capitalism took a lot of them away from poverty and starvation.(2)

Yes there are fewer places where capitalism can go. But until there capitalism will give a way to maintain itself. Maybe humans won't be needed anymore in factories; machines would perform all the job. While capitalism gave us multiples technological innovation, I would like to ask Pro to give 1 technollogy invented in socialist countries that are used world wide?

She also talks about war and "capitalist funded wars". What's that? Wars are wars and wars are bad. Actually, capitalism prevent wars. When two nations have a very developed capitalism it's very difficult to start a war. Big companies would lose a lot of money if a war started and this logic is only logical in capitalism. Any other socioeconomic system wars would be very difficult to prevent. I would also like the sources for her statement: "Even in World War Two[...], only 15-20% of soldiers actually fired at the enemy".

She also talks about prejudices. This is interesting. She says prejudices like sexism racism and homophobia are " deeply rooted in our economic system, in society and in culture". Really? I'm a mulatto and never suffered racism. My mother is black and my dad is white. Where did she took this from. And I should remind her that prejudices are bad for capitalists. If they don't accept blacks, they will lose black costumers and other costumers offended by his racism. Capitalism makes people like each other, because if you don't you'll lose money. And on LGBT rights, let me remind you that Cuba(your beloved socialist country) sent gays to work camps against their will. What system is homophobic now?(3)

And speaking on Cuba, let me remind that she is a communist hating capitalism on a capitalist country, while if I, a socialist hater, were in Cuba and shouted out loud "I'm against socialism' I would probably be arrested if not killed by the government. Pro affirms she was happy in Cuba, but I think Cubans political prisoners will disagree.(4)

sources:

1 http://en.wikipedia.org...
2 http://www.cup.edu.cn...
3http://books.google.com.br...
4http://www.amnesty.org...
Debate Round No. 3
vaporizeislands

Pro

vaporizeislands forfeited this round.
JRRS

Con

Giving the fact that my opponent broke her own rule, I think it`s fair to declare that I win
Debate Round No. 4
vaporizeislands

Pro

vaporizeislands forfeited this round.
JRRS

Con

Vote Con!
Debate Round No. 5
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by JRRS 3 years ago
JRRS
So, if Pro broke her own rule, I won
Posted by zestog3 3 years ago
zestog3
I'm already debating her that Communist is the worst system of governance. Guess you want to go against two people on the same topic... : /

Best of luck
Posted by TorqueDork 3 years ago
TorqueDork
Are you debating that communism is the best form of government, or just a good one?
Posted by vaporizeislands 3 years ago
vaporizeislands
Please do.
Posted by Subutai 3 years ago
Subutai
I want to... Would you like me to challenge you?
Posted by vaporizeislands 3 years ago
vaporizeislands
Aren't you supposed to be debating me Subtai?
Posted by Subutai 3 years ago
Subutai
I see someone likes my debate format. Can you change the resolution to just "Communism"?
Posted by vaporizeislands 3 years ago
vaporizeislands
Okay, Marxist-Leninist expansion throughout the world?
Posted by vaporizeislands 3 years ago
vaporizeislands
Across the spectrum of communism.
Posted by Ithacus 3 years ago
Ithacus
Please define Communism " the ideology? The practical application? Marxist, Leninist, Trotskyist, all have totally different sociopolitical ramifications. I doubt someone is going to accept your debate with such a vague premise unless they can't actually tell the difference between Das Kapital and Stalinism.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by OtakuJordan 3 years ago
OtakuJordan
vaporizeislandsJRRSTied
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Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro broke her own rules and dropped many arguments.
Vote Placed by TheHitchslap 3 years ago
TheHitchslap
vaporizeislandsJRRSTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: ff