The Instigator
PremierMarx
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Huffder
Con (against)
Winning
4 Points

Communism VS Capitalism

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Huffder
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/6/2015 Category: Politics
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,070 times Debate No: 74851
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (15)
Votes (1)

 

PremierMarx

Pro

Communism is better because where has capitalism worked in Asia, Africa, and South America? No where you must be industrialized before hand.
Huffder

Con

I cannot refute your original comment, as typos have limited my understanding as to what you were trying to say.

Anyway, history is a clear source and example as to what happens to communist countries. Take, for example, the Soviet Union, a tower of strength for many years... if it didn't rely off of the United States and other "capitalist" countries for currency and value. An overlooked flaw in the communist system is the fact that a command economy poses a problem to the value of objects. Without competition, it is impossible to determine the price of something, and therefore limiting the communist country in the world trade market, unless it "steals" prices from other capitalist countries.
Debate Round No. 1
PremierMarx

Pro

Yes, but what happens when capitalism starts failing what do countries do? Turn to the far right
Huffder

Con

Of course, but look at what THAT results in. Stalin killed over twenty million people in his Purges, Mao Zedong killed seventy million, Pol Pot in Cambodia killed 1/4 of the population... clearly, communism is a brilliant thing. Furthermore, everywhere communism appears, it collapses soon afterwards. Although China has one of the biggest economies in today's world, this is because of their recent switch to capitalism, demonstrated by such companies as Sinopec Group (with a revenue of 273 billion dollars) and State Grid (income of 226.2 billion). The United States, however, a leading figure in capitalism, has and has always remained the strongest, best place to live in the world.
Debate Round No. 2
PremierMarx

Pro

You are right on how many people were killed under communism but what about Nationalism and Religion they killed more people that any other thing in human history. The crusades was a series of wars that were about getting to Jerusalem.
Huffder

Con

Of course, people die in war. Once again, the numbers compare nothing to the murders from communism. Official estimates put the crusades at about 5 million dead from both side. As I have stated previously, Zedong's 70 million and Stalin's 20 million make that number look weak. Even Hitler pales in comparison to these numbers. I would like to remind my opposition the debate is between capitalism and communism, and does not involve nationalism or religion. If you wish to apply those things to capitalism, please prove that capitalism relates to those things first. If anything, communism supports nationalism.
"[Marx] tacitly supported proletarian nationalism as a stage to achieve proletarian rule over a nation."
Dang, out of characters.
Debate Round No. 3
PremierMarx

Pro

PremierMarx forfeited this round.
Huffder

Con

My opponent has forfeited. My argument still stands.
Debate Round No. 4
PremierMarx

Pro

PremierMarx forfeited this round.
Huffder

Con

Huffder forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
15 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by ColeTrain 1 year ago
ColeTrain
There's more of a debate in the comment section than in the actual debate. Lol.

Capitalism is #1
Posted by Huffder 1 year ago
Huffder
Mashi, if you could please explain as to why.

Platov, I would enjoy seeing those "official" documents you claim exist. I would also like to point to numerous textbooks used in the American school system that support my numbers.
Posted by mashi 1 year ago
mashi
If you complain about the gulags then you are a Nazi apologist.
Posted by Platov 1 year ago
Platov
The numbers I gave you were not from some article in newspaper or a book, but from actual archives. With all respect to Solzhenitsyn, I doubt he could count every prisoner, living in a barrack. At the time he was writing his book archives were classified, now they are not. Actual records show that numbers were overblown to dramatize these events. In most cases it was intentional, to undermine the whole system regardless of advantages it had. But It's never black and white...

No-one denies the horror that actually did happened, but scale does matter. At some point in time it was widely believed that Jews killed and drunk blood of innocent non-jewish children... Although it did happend, and most probably happend to this day, it is not a reason to brand Jews as horrible nation, that deserves extermination. Same with communism...

http://en.wikipedia.org...
Posted by Huffder 1 year ago
Huffder
"Mr Dik"tter, who has been studying Chinese rural history from 1958 to 1962, when the nation was facing a famine, compared the systematic torture, brutality, starvation and killing of Chinese peasants to the Second World War in its magnitude. At least 45 million people were worked, starved or beaten to death in China over these four years [of Mao's rule]; the worldwide death toll of the Second World War was 55 million."
http://www.independent.co.uk...

"The ban on private holdings ruined peasant life at its most basic level, according to Mirsky. Villagers were unable to secure enough food to go on living, because they were deprived by the commune system of their traditional means of being able to rent, sell, or use their land as collateral for loans.[1] In one village, once the commune was operational the Party boss and his colleagues "swung into manic action, herding villagers into the fields to sleep and to work intolerable hours, and forcing them to walk, starving, to distant additional projects.[1]"
"Not all deaths during the Great Leap were from starvation. Frank Dik"tter estimates that at least 2.5 million people were beaten or tortured to death and 1 to 3 million committed suicide.[96] He provides some illustrative examples. In Xinyang, where over a million died in 1960, 6-7 percent (around 67,000) of these were beaten to death by the militias. In Daoxian county, 10 percent of those who died had been "buried alive, clubbed to death or otherwise killed by party members and their militia." In Shimen county, around 13,500 died in 1960, of these 12% were "beaten or driven to their deaths."[97]
http://en.wikipedia.org...
Proof of Mao's crimes as well.
Posted by Huffder 1 year ago
Huffder
"1 million imprisoned or exiled between 1927 to 1929; 9 to 11 million peasants forced off their lands and another 2 to 3 million peasants arrested or exiled in the mass collectivization program; 6 to 7 million killed by an artificial famine in 1932-1934; 1 million exiled from Moscow and Leningrad in 1935; 1 million executed during the 'Great Terror' of 1937-1938; 4 to 6 million dispatched to forced labor camps; 10 to 12 million people forcibly relocated during World War II; and at least 1 million arrested for various "political crimes" from 1946 to 1953.

"Although not everyone who was swept up in the aforementioned events died from unnatural causes, Medvedev"s 20 million non-combatant deaths estimate is likely a conservative guess."

"Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, the literary giant who wrote harrowingly about the Soviet gulag system, claimed the true number of Stalin"s victims might have been as high as 60 million."
http://www.ibtimes.com...

"Chistyakovoy, V. (Neva, no.10): 20 million killed during the 1930s." (High-number estimates)
"Maksudov, S. (Poteri naseleniya SSSR, 1989): 9.8 million abnormal deaths between 1926 and 1937." (Lowest number I could find, next to your numbers)
I apologize for not showing my sources in the actual debate. 750 characters are hard to do anything with.
If you could display your sources, that would be awesome.
Posted by Platov 1 year ago
Platov
To make it easier for you her are the numbers

From 1921 to 1954 (that is 33 year span) there were 642.980 executed, imprisoned - 2.369.220, exiled to work in labor camps - 765.180.

So it's not even close to 20 million you are talking about. Soviet union lost about 28 mil in WW2. And that was a real catastrophe. Belarus, the country I'm from, lost 25% of it's population.

So stop believing legends fed by opposing fore, do research and use your brain.
Posted by Platov 1 year ago
Platov
Huffder,

"Stalin's 20 million" where is this number comes from, are they all dead, or detained? Are they all political or mixed with criminals? Is it over several years or in a single year? Please prove or at least refer to the number you throw out so easily.
Posted by Platov 1 year ago
Platov
Huffder, appreciate your replies,

Communism came about in a revolutionary way, not evolutionary, so the brutal "torrent" as you put it is merely a consequence of that. Just for a historical note, here are revolutionary events in the civilized western world:
- French revolution (birthplace of bourgeois leadership) tens of thousands butchered
http://en.wikipedia.org...
- English civil war
http://en.wikipedia.org...
- Protestants vs Catholics (millions butchered)
https://en.wikipedia.org...

You might say that this happened long time ago... I will agree and add that due to absence of revolutionary events in more recent history the west managed to accumulate it's wealth through preservation and continuation of power.

Back to Stalin. He had to consolidate his power and knock out the country from civil war and turmoil which was the case for years. Second aspect is that people who float up in violent times are usually not the best characters, not so much Stalin, as the whole mid level management of a young socialist country...

Now about GDP. Before the revolution majority of Russians couldn't read and write and worked the land. By the end of Soviet period Russia had the best education system in the world with biggest number of secondary degree students. From agricultural country it became highly industrial and was second only to US. You also have to consider climate, population and distances. Population is lower, climate is harsh, everything requires more effort, from farming to construction.

"Capitalism has NEVER been based off of the exploiting others. It has been based off of hope and progress."
That is awesome, if you disregard generations of slavery in US, subduction of Latin America through credits and military pressure, countless Invasions of foreign countries....
Posted by Huffder 1 year ago
Huffder
To my third opposition, Mashi...
Attempting to deny Stalin's purges is just like covering up Hitler's crimes in the Holocaust. Gulags have been discovered and recent records BY the Soviet Union after their collapse dictate the millions who were killed. Refuting facts and passing it off as "bourgeois propaganda" is not only illogical but hypocritical, as the Soviet Union is widely known for its use of propaganda.
I would like to remind my opposition that "name calling" is prohibited and is to be considered an immediate surrender. I would also like to remind my opposition to provide facts instead of simply claiming things.
I would like to thank all three of my opposition again.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by salam.morcos 1 year ago
salam.morcos
PremierMarxHuffderTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro didn't debate and forfeited. I wasted time on this RFD! Pro thinks Communism is better because it didn't work in Asia, Africa and South America. Pro showed the flows of the Soviet Union. Then Pro says when capitalism doesn't work, they become far right! Is that even an argument. Con shows that many people got killed under communism which Pro agrees to. To counter Pro says what about killings caused by Nationalists and Religions? This is a red herring and not even an argument. After which Pro forfeits all rounds. Sources: None. Conduct: Pro ff I vote Con