The Instigator
08tsuchiyar
Pro (for)
Losing
9 Points
The Contender
bones
Con (against)
Winning
42 Points

Communism doesn't work? Nor does Capitalism!

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/17/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 4,685 times Debate No: 2712
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (13)
Votes (15)

 

08tsuchiyar

Pro

Often times when I discuss communism I hear the argument "communism doesn't work!" I find that concept very interesting and in fact I think I agree with it but I want to present to you another interesting idea. Capitalism does not work.

Then they go on to say, "name one successful communist country."
"There are none."

Recently when I got the idea and presented it to some friends. They repeated some things.
"Look at the US."
"The US is successful as well as Europe."
"But capitalism still works better".....

My point is that although communist nations fail, the capitalist SYSTEM also fails.

Let me explain. The US is an example of a successful capitalist nation, it has accomplished amazing things. It's economic success is at the price of other nations which have a large struggling population.

The topic to debate is whether capitalism fails not whether capitalism or communism is better then the other. I will bring up other points in another round after seeing where the debate is heading. Let's have fun!

Also, by fail I do not mean it is imperfect because perfection is impossible....
bones

Con

First off, I just wanted to be clear on word usage. I interchange the free market and capitalism, since the free market is the philosophical foundation upon which capitalism was founded. The free market is ultimately unable to be attained, but the closest we can do is capitalism. Capitalism only works within special parameters though.

There needs to be an enforcement of private property rights and there also has to be the upholding of contracts. These are the two main pillars for capitalism to work. Capitalism works only when both of these prerequisites are upheld. In many countries where we claim that capitalism does not work, it is because of the prior statements. One or both of those prerequisites are not sustained. If both of these are in place, capitalism works. Trade works. Prosperity will start to appear, but very slowly. Capitalism is not an n-sum game. If there is to be peace, we agree that it cannot only be for us, but for others too. For there to be prosperity, it must be prosperity for all. They both are general. It may take a long time to gain peace and prosperity, but prosperity for one means prosperity for another. That is why capitalism must work. People have to find their niche in the economy and by making mistakes, they learn. We learn that we are not good at things and that we are goods at other things. We focus and do what makes us the most profit. And when I say profit, I'm not just referring to money.

We don't always have to have examples. We know things that we know because we know them. Nihilism collapses on itself. There are things that are absolute truths and we can know these certain things. We know that men will always do what is in their best interest. They may not always make the right decisions, but they always think that they are. If we follow the logic from certain truths, we are inevitably led to certain ends. My point is that there is nothing less than capitalism, free market, or communism. Systems will always lead to their ends. We are slowly leading to communism or else we are being led to capitalism. So, it is almost a mute point to argue that both systems fail.

Just as a random sidebar, the word perfect is relative. There are several meanings behind ‘perfect' and it is a totally other debate. But I would agree that capitalism is not perfect, but it is the best we have to work with.
Debate Round No. 1
08tsuchiyar

Pro

Capitalism fails as a system....In capitalism there must be an imbalance. This imbalance is often too great. The fact that the richest 1% own about 2/3 of the wealth is a staggering fact. Such disparity is proof of its failure. Although individual nations may be relatively succesful, other nations may fail. There is extreme disparity in the system. The reason communist nations fail so fast is because of the size of the system. Individual nations which prefer not to trade, collapse real fast. The capitalist system is large and international, taking much longer to fail. I was intending on posting more but I ran out of time....
bones

Con

What do you mean by the fact that there must be an imbalance in capitalism? If we keep true to the principles of capitalism, then there is a large middle class and small lower and upper classes. People seem to believe that capitalism means that everyone wins and that if there are any failures, than capitalism has failed. Capitalism creates winners and losers, just like any other system. The difference is that there are more winners in capitalism than in other system. The losers don't lose as they do in communism or socialism, or fascism.

I don't care whether you cite your last ‘fact' or not. That fact only measures monetary values anyways. The real issue is that there people that are more rewarded for their job than many others are. And that is not with money. An example would be teachers. Almost all people going into teaching know that there is not a high rate of return in monetary values. There is a high value otherwise. That is why they choose to teach. Some teachers want to see the kids learn, smile; have someone care for them. That is why they become teachers, not for the money. Because again, it's not about the money. Free-market economists know that more than anybody else. I have more wealth in telling someone about the free market than I do in trading stocks and making a lot more money.

One to the next point…communism. I agree that large communist nations fail, but so do the smallest ones. Because the principles are the same. People know what they need and want more than the government ever will. The sooner we realize that, the sooner we will stop accepting handouts from the government. Al l communism fails and anything less than capitalism, or free-market, is a pathway to communism. So there is no other system to pick from. Socialism, fascism, anarchy, will all eventually lead to communism.

Capitalism is not what we have in America. We have some eclectic system of capitalism, socialism, and fascism. Therefore, we are being led to COMMUNISM.

Capitalism doesn't fail in other countries. The precursors for capitalism to be there are private property rights and upholding contracts. This is not the case in many third-world nations. The government owns much of the land and people do not keep contracts made with others, so stealing is prevalent. If these two principles are upheld, then capitalism will prosper and so will the people.
Debate Round No. 2
08tsuchiyar

Pro

08tsuchiyar forfeited this round.
bones

Con

I just wanted to briefly talk about your opening argument, since I have nothing new to debate with.

There are some things that we don't have an example for, yet we wee that they will work because we know other truths. There are some truths, like the fact that people act. There is no way around this. Even if people were fed and bathed and lived in a house that kept them warm, they would get bored. We have to act. And when we act, we move only for ourselves. We do only what we believe will benefit us the most in the end. Even when we do ‘selfless' acts, we are thinking for ourselves. Because we are always giving away something in order to get something more valuable to us back. Whether we give money to charities, or give our time as our jobs, we are getting in return, wages or the joy of knowing that we gave to an organization that will help starving children. Since we know that men act and that they act only out of their own desires, we need to know how to harness these truths and make the most ideal society. People that are able to choose are the people that are going to make this world better off. When we allow people to be able to express their own desires, the whole is benefited. Because as long as there are rules that enforce private property and contractual agreements, then we will always be striving to make the most use of the resources in this scarce world. As long as we have signs of what goods and services are in greater supply and less supply, by sound money producing pricing signals, we can make the right decisions. And even if we fail to make the right decision, we can fix ourselves and make the correct one the next time. But it is not in our best interest and in the interest of others to lead us to the ‘right' decision. We are all people that can take responsibility for ourselves. If we are able to assume responsibility and let free men make mistakes, then we will have capitalism at its finest. Since we know these truths, we don't need an example of an ideal capitalistic system. We know that it will work, because it is our only choice if we recognize our own tendencies.

We don't have to prosper at the expense of other nations. We prosper because we make the right decisions for us. Capitalism does not take advantage of other peoples, as the misconception goes. Everyone is useful in a capitalistic state. There will be no race to the bottom. Capitalism is there to make us better off. Why would we willingly go back to Stone Age living conditions? We need to be realistic and realize that we are not a stupid people. We only take advantages of others now because we are misled by bad informants on how to run a country. It will take a little while, but we will eventually realize that we are not where we should be.

Thanks

Bryce
Debate Round No. 3
08tsuchiyar

Pro

08tsuchiyar forfeited this round.
bones

Con

bones forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
13 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by wjmelements 7 years ago
wjmelements
Block text hurts my eyes.
Posted by DucoNihilum 9 years ago
DucoNihilum
Anybody who voted for pro, including pro himself, is simply showing their biases. Pro losts, hands down.
Posted by padlockcode 9 years ago
padlockcode
this one was hard to vote for but had to vote pro.
Posted by Daxitarian 9 years ago
Daxitarian
"This imbalance is often too great. The fact that the richest 1% own about 2/3 of the wealth is a staggering fact. Such disparity is proof of its failure. "

It's not capitalism that causes this imbalance, rather government redistributes wealth back to the wealthy (through social security, financing of public colleges, corporate welfare, regulations that are written by lobbyists, etc.)
Posted by 08tsuchiyar 9 years ago
08tsuchiyar
lol, duh....shoulda figured that one out.
Posted by Shorack 9 years ago
Shorack
08tsuchiyar, that is your job, to get people to focus on what you believe to be the point of the debate. ;)
Posted by 08tsuchiyar 9 years ago
08tsuchiyar
lol, everyone seems to miss the point of the debate. whatever.
Posted by the_conservative 9 years ago
the_conservative
the fact taht Communism has killed over 130 milion people and .....most countries are capitalist....yuo seem to be doing fine so why dont you complain to Hugo Chavez or Stalin even though he is dead about capitalism. Even big bad china is moving towards an economically capitalist country.
Posted by Shorack 9 years ago
Shorack
"The fact that the richest 1% own about 2/3 of the wealth is a staggering fact."

There is so much wrong with using that 'fact' (yes ', i'd love to see a source for that) and saying that because of that, capitalism fails.

But since it isn't my debate, it's up to bones to take care of it. ;)
(although i'd love to debate you on this subject)
Posted by Shorack 9 years ago
Shorack
It is not perfect, since all systems are about mankind and mankind itself isn't perfect. ;)

But that doesn't mean a system is bound not to work out reasonably well.

By the way, i don't get why people always refer to the USA as a capitalist example. It isn't.
It is more capitalist than many other countries, but it still isn't close to being really capitalist.

Best example (but got it from a book written in early eighties :D) for a capitalist nation is Hong Kong. ;)
15 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by mongeese 7 years ago
mongeese
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