The Instigator
1dustpelt
Con (against)
Winning
15 Points
The Contender
chainmachine
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points

Communism

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
1dustpelt
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/28/2012 Category: Politics
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 4,447 times Debate No: 21585
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (4)
Votes (4)

 

1dustpelt

Con

First round for acceptance.
chainmachine

Pro

I accept the parameters of the challenge.
Debate Round No. 1
1dustpelt

Con

Argument number 1
Under the system of communism, people can get by without working hard. Because everyone(except for the leaders) is all equal, they get paid all the same, so nothing motivates them to work hard.

Argument 2
Under the system of communism, the government has the power, and the people have no freedom. The people have to listen to the government, and the government makes all the decisions. The people have no control of their own lives.

Argument 3
Under communism, people cannot chose their leaders. The USSR made it so that people could vote, but they only had one candidate to choose from, so it did not matter weather they voted or not.

I await my opponent's arguments.
chainmachine

Pro

I thank my opponent for his response

REFUTES

* You don't get things if you don't work, your punished simple fact.
* Yes and how is that wrong?
* The USSR was ruled by the Communist party there or Bolsheviks. Meaning that it was and oligarchy.

Sidenote: I would like to ask if my opponent could please actually use factual evidence for his arguments. If this is factual evidence that my opponent is presenting then i would like to ask him to please list his sources.

COMMUNISM

.I Communist countries have very low crime rates, that is an undeniable fact.

Source:http://en.wikipedia.org...

CONCLUSION
I apologize for my short argument but refutes and one new argument to the table is good enough. My opponent has not proven his point and has no evidence.
Debate Round No. 2
1dustpelt

Con

Rebuttals
1. Under communism, you get food and shelter from the government even if you don't work hard. There is no motivation to work, and the result of that is bad products.
2. People should be able to control their own lives, people have the right of privacy and decisions. Under communism, the people have no freedom, they cannot even control their own lives. Think, would you want to have your life controled by the government, or be free to express yourself?
3. Exactly. They cannot choose their own leaders.

"Communist countries have very low crime rates, that is an undeniable fact."
Crimes are not reported due to fear of the government and communities trying to keep the government out of their little loops. The Government aways squash dissension. Tiananmen square is a good example. And the guy who was killed in England by Polonium and the reporter who disappeared in Moscow reporting on Putin's continued KGB ties.

New arguments:
Education- The government is in control of all education. The government does not want people to know much about other countries and capitalism, thus leading to ignorance.

Abolition of Private property- Under the system of communism, one cannot own property, all land is in control of government. Again, no freedom or liberty for people.

Sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://history.howstuffworks.com...
http://www.marxists.org...
http://www.allaboutphilosophy.org...
chainmachine

Pro

I thank my opponent for his response.

COMMUNISM IN RUSSIA

.I After the period from 194-1923 Russia was in a constant state of warfare. I will show a bracket of casualty's in
WW1 and the Russian civil war and the total death and wounded total. Proving that Communism brought the country out of a warring dark age. One which wrecked the country and Russia lost upwards of 13 million people and 10s of millions more wounded.

Population of Russian Empire right before WW1: 175,100,000
Military Deaths: 1,811,000
Direct Civilian Deaths: 500,000
Excess Civilian Deaths (due to famine or disease.): 1,000,000
Total deaths: 3,311,000
Death as Total % of population: 1.89%
Military Wounded: 4,950,000

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org...

.II Communism effectively industrialized the country and made diseases like typhoid fever fall to almost 0%.

CHINA

.I China was invaded by Japan and repelled it while having a massive civil war overlapping the war. Communism was put in place because the people were unhappy, it is still in place today and the current corruption has come from Capitalism.

.II China had excellently low crimes and even with the reforms still has good crime rates. Something which many capitalist countries can't say that.

EDUCATION

.I Education was not bad, yes if you lived in the country was poor. It is also horrible in rural places all over the world, something which should not be criticized since that is no fault of communism in specific.

.II Education in big cities away from the collectivized farms were perfectly fine and taught basic mathematics, history, and some science. Language and writing were taught as well.

FREEDOM AND LIBERTY

.I Actually my opponent simply states that it is wrong to not have this. You don't explain why, stating this does not mean you have proved your point.

.II In the book, The Leviathan: By Thomas Hobbes. A book widely recognized by many modern countries and philosophers. Explained how a very powerful central government is the solution to all problems. In turn arguing for Autocracy being Communism,Monarchies,Oligarchies,and Imperialism.

REFUTES

* Of course crime rates in communist countries are very low, the police forces are much larger.
* Communist countries like China produces products for the western world as a whole. I really don't see how their products are bad since so many people use them.
* In true communism the communist party shifts around the leaders. Therefore if the party, a large amount of the population. Approves if it is a good leader.

CONCLUSION

My opponents core points have been refuted and I have shown how communism has done great things. I urge a vote Pr!
Debate Round No. 3
1dustpelt

Con

Rebuttals

"After the period from 194-1923 Russia was in a constant state of warfare. I will show a bracket of casualty's in
WW1 and the Russian civil war and the total death and wounded total. Proving that Communism brought the country out of a warring dark age. One which wrecked the country and Russia lost upwards of 13 million people and 10s of millions more wounded."
That was WWI. Even if there was no communist party, the same thing would have occurred because WWI ended.

"Communism effectively industrialized the country and made diseases like typhoid fever fall to almost 0%."
Where, may I ask, have you found that fact? That argument is invalid unless you provide a source.

"China was invaded by Japan and repelled it while having a massive civil war overlapping the war. Communism was put in place because the people were unhappy, it is still in place today and the current corruption has come from Capitalism."
It was mainly the Nationalist Party that fought Japan. The people were unhappy with the Communist Party to, because after they took over, they took away people's property, lowered people's pay, had government strictly control the people and took away basic rights like freedom of speech. Because of this freedom of speech issue, nobody could protest. When people tried to protest in 1989, the Chinese communist party massacred them.

"China had excellently low crimes and even with the reforms still has good crime rates. Something which many capitalist countries can't say that."
China, low crime rates? 82% of software is pirated in China, one of the highest in the world. Corruption is common among government employees. Between 1978 and 2003, an estimated $50 billion was smuggled out of the country by corrupt officials. A legal verdict can be changed from guilt to innocence, death sentence can turn into not-guilty verdict and length of prison terms can be reduced by bribing officials. The armed forces employs naval vessels and airplanes for various smuggling activities. The police stations often open covert gambling houses, or they can provide protection for them. In 2009, 106,000 public officials in China were convicted of corruption. Prostitution is also very common.

"Education was not bad, yes if you lived in the country was poor. It is also horrible in rural places all over the world, something which should not be criticized since that is no fault of communism in specific."
Education in communist countries is strictly controlled by the government, and the government does not want students to know about capitalism or foreign countries, thus promoting ignorance.

"Education in big cities away from the collectivized farms were perfectly fine and taught basic mathematics, history, and some science. Language and writing were taught as well."
Yes, but what they did not teach is anything related to capitalist countries. The Soviet government said American literature was evil and banned it from schools.

"Actually my opponent simply states that it is wrong to not have this. You don't explain why, stating this does not mean you have proved your point."
Actually, I have proved my point. Think, would you want to have your life controlled by the government, or be free to express yourself?

"In the book, The Leviathan: By Thomas Hobbes. A book widely recognized by many modern countries and philosophers. Explained how a very powerful central government is the solution to all problems. In turn arguing for Autocracy being Communism,Monarchies,Oligarchies,and Imperialism."
In the essay, Common Sense: By Thomas Paine, an essay widely recognized by many modern countries and philosophers explained how democracy and the people's right to liberty is important. You provide no details of why The Leviathan is correct.

"Of course crime rates in communist countries are very low, the police forces are much larger."
Actually not. Let's look at the crime rates in China. 82% of software is pirated in China, one of the highest in the world. Corruption is common among government employees. Between 1978 and 2003, an estimated $50 billion was smuggled out of the country by corrupt officials. A legal verdict can be changed from guilt to innocence, death sentence can turn into not-guilty verdict and length of prison terms can be reduced by bribing officials. The armed forces employs naval vessels and airplanes for various smuggling activities. The police stations often open covert gambling houses, or they can provide protection for them. In 2009, 106,000 public officials in China were convicted of corruption. Prostitution is also very common. The thing with China is that even if they do have large police forces, the police don't care a thing about their job as long as they get their pay.

"Communist countries like China produces products for the western world as a whole. I really don't see how their products are bad since so many people use them."
Nowadays, China has become more and more capitalist, allowing private businesses, producing products for the rest of the world. I guess they finally got a bit of sense. Look what happened in Soviet Russia when Stalin took control!

"In true communism the communist party shifts around the leaders. Therefore if the party, a large amount of the population. Approves if it is a good leader."
No, the people do not get to choose their leaders. In communist China, the people do not get to choose their leaders. During presidential elections, their is only one leader to choose from.

Conclusion
My opponent's points have been refuted. My opponent has also dropped my argument about private property and government controlling education. I urge a vote for Con.

http://en.wikipedia.org...'s_Republic_of_China
http://en.wikipedia.org...'s_Republic_of_China
http://m.smh.com.au...
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com...
http://www.ft.com...
http://www.havocscope.com...
http://econfaculty.gmu.edu...
http://www.allaboutphilosophy.org...
chainmachine

Pro

chainmachine forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
1dustpelt

Con

Extend arguments. Why accept if you won't finish? Forfeit=lose.
chainmachine

Pro

chainmachine forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by Scorbie 4 years ago
Scorbie
Since December 15th 2005
http://news.cnet.com...
Posted by beatmaster2012 4 years ago
beatmaster2012
I know, I was mostly talking to the other guy.
Posted by 1dustpelt 4 years ago
1dustpelt
IDK. Anyway, I have 3 other sources.
Posted by beatmaster2012 4 years ago
beatmaster2012
Since when is Wikipedia a legit source?
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by TUF 4 years ago
TUF
1dustpeltchainmachineTied
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Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: Due to forfeit.
Vote Placed by thett3 4 years ago
thett3
1dustpeltchainmachineTied
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Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: Communist left
Vote Placed by 16kadams 4 years ago
16kadams
1dustpeltchainmachineTied
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Reasons for voting decision: FF
Vote Placed by lannan13 4 years ago
lannan13
1dustpeltchainmachineTied
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Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: FF, Dustpelt had better sources.