The Instigator
vaporizeislands
Pro (for)
Winning
6 Points
The Contender
Stirling
Con (against)
Losing
2 Points

Communist Party of the USA?

Do you like this debate?NoYes+3
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
vaporizeislands
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/20/2013 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,167 times Debate No: 42698
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (10)
Votes (2)

 

vaporizeislands

Pro

Here is the challenge.

Full Resolution

Communists have a place in American society.

BoP is shared - pro has to prove that communism has a place, while con has to prove that communism has no place


Rules

1. The first round is for acceptance.
2. A forfeit or concession is not allowed.
3. No semantics, trolling, or lawyering.
4. All arguments and sources must be visible inside this debate.
5. Debate resolution, definitions, rules, and structure cannot be changed without asking in the comments before you post your round 1 argument.

Debate resolution, definitions, rules, and structure cannot be changed in the middle of the debate.

Debate Structure


Round 1: Acceptance
Round 2: Presenting all arguments (no rebuttals by con)
Round 3: Refutation of opponent's arguments (no new arguments)
Round 4: Defending your original arguments and conclusion (no new arguments)
Stirling

Con

I accept and look forward to debating with you
Debate Round No. 1
vaporizeislands

Pro

I will now present my argument.

Communism
is a system in which the class system is abolished. All property is owned by the community and it aims to create classless, moneyless and stateless social order structured upon common ownership. This heavily opposes capitalism. Capitalism means that all trade and production is owned by a private owner and therefore contradicting the principles of communism.

I believe that capitalism in the United States has created a massive divide in race, sex, sexual orientation and class. Communism in the United States would bring an end to the mass struggles of various orientations etc. Why would anyone want to have system in which their people are oppressed and don't receive the required amount of rights as an average citizen.

America has almost always had a degree of socialism about it. I love the fact that constitutionalists and conservatives are so frightened that the United States will publicize their health care system even though it is clearly for the benefit of the people and just the common man.

Communism will bring an end to the economic failure of the United states due to banks and 'big- shots' constantly taking advantage of the so-called 'free market'.

Capitalism is failing system and socialism/communism is a way to build an equal society.
Stirling

Con

Thank you for your argument Pro.

Communism, at its core, is a good institution. It strives to equalize society and create comfortable yet modest life for all. Yet the biggest flaw of this system is the lack of checks and balances and the violent nature of it. Communism is, by Marx's theories, achieved through an uprising and revolution of the poor. Afterwards, a dictator is required to take command and that dictator somehow must be pure, kind, generous, free of greed etc to ensure the survival of this Utopian society. And finally, in order to come close to an equal society, all non communists must be destroyed to effect the transition from capitalism to communism. It is interesting to remember Marx died before any of his "best case scenario" theories were ever put to the test.

Throughout the world, Communist revolutions have erupted and many ended in a dictator seizing power and controlling every aspect of life. This relinquishment of freedom in itself violates all American principles.


In conclusion, a perfect Utopian Society is something everyone would like. That is, if it will work. The fatal flaw of communism is how hard it is to put it truly in play and the unintended consequences/corruption that may follow. [See Animal Farm or The Giver]

I look forward to your reply
Debate Round No. 2
vaporizeislands

Pro

No problem Con.

All non communists must be destroyed to effect the transition from capitalism to communism.

This is not necessarily the case. In Cuba after the revolution there was a considerable percentage of people who were staunchly anti-communist also this applies to the former USSR, China and Vietnam but that does not mean they where strictly unhappy to live in this form of society.

Throughout the world, Communist revolutions have erupted and many ended in a dictator seizing power and controlling every aspect of life. This relinquishment of freedom in itself violates all American principles.

This could also be said for capitalism. Around the world, the United States have funded many militia groups and death squads to uphold a dictators power, this is common knowledge.



Stirling

Con

"Power corrupts & absolute power corrupts absolutely"

The USSR as a Communist nation under Joseph Stalin murdered over 62 million Russians. http://www.hawaii.edu...

The following figures are from http://www.battleswarmblog.com...

65 million in the People’s Republic of China
20 million in the Soviet Union
2 million in Cambodia
2 million in North Korea
1.7 million in Africa
1.5 million in Afghanistan
1 million in the Communist states of Eastern Europe
1 million in Vietnam
150,000 in Latin America
10,000 deaths “resulting from actions of the international communist movement and communist parties not in power.”


Here are a few more facts on the murder of people for the purpose of putting down rebellion/anti-communist feelings

Under the Genocide Convention, the genocide would not be a crime when applied to the mass killing of political and social groups. Protection of political groups was eliminated from the UN resolution after a second vote, because many states, including Stalin's USSR, anticipated that clause to apply unneeded limitations to their right to suppress internal disturbances. Additionally, Communist nations employ the use of propaganda and terror to keep the population under control along with secret police.

_______________________


"This could also be said for capitalism. Around the world, the United States have funded many militia groups and death squads to uphold a dictators power, this is common knowledge."

I admit and strongly disagree with the United States on this. Their support of vicious dictators due to geopolitical causes is inexcusable. However, in the context of this debate, Communism can give rise to the very same totalitarian regimes within the United States this time.

I look forward to our closing arguments!
Debate Round No. 3
vaporizeislands

Pro

Thank you,

First and foremost, not one single communist state accepts Stalin as a communist, he was an evil mass-murdering sociopath.

But now, I'll highlight all deaths relating to capitalism.

Africa:
Rwandan Genocide - 500,000–1,000,00

Europe:
Armenian Genocide -1.5 million
Bosnian Genocide - 8,489
Irish Potato Famine - 1 million

Asia:
Assyrian Genocide - 275,000-300,000
US Bombing of Cambodia - 40,000–150,000
Indonesian Killings - 500,000 to 1 million
Iraqi Sanctions - 2 million

South America:
Operation Colombo: 119
Selknam Genocide - 8 million

Regimes and Dictatorships supported by the US:
Jorge Ubico - Guatemalan dictator
Syngman Rhee - South Korean dictator
Saudi Royal Family - Known to have breached various human rights and have been assisted by the CIA.
Fulgencio Batista - A personal favorite, committed a huge amount of atrocities in my homeland and turned Cuba into a floating Casino.
Shah Mohammad - Iranian dictator
Ngo Dinh Diem - South Vietnamese dictator
Ferdinand Marcos - Filipino dictator
Lon Nol - Khmer dictator
General Augusto Pinochet - Chilean war criminal
Saddam Hussein - words fail me.
Jean-Claude Duvalier - Haitian dictator
Khmer Rouge - committed numerous atrocities.

A key element to the formation of capitalism is colonialism - The United States has practiced colonialism and imperialism for at least two centuries plundering everything it can. This is what the capitalist ideal is.

Back to the matter in hand...

Abolition of private property in the USA - This would clear any class system and bigotry that a massive percentage of upper-class American currently posses.

Progressive tax - As the amount subject to taxation increases as does the taxation thus preventing anyone from earning more than others. This would fundamentally improve equality in America.

Government ownership of communication and transportation - This would therefore making traveling easier and a lot cheaper. The United States travel rates are extortionate.

Government control of education - Everyone receives the same level as education, this isn't practiced in America thus giving people unfair opportunities.

-----

Thank you for bearing with me and my apologies for rambling.

Stirling

Con

Hi!

Regarding the multiple war atrocities and tragedies, they are sad, yes. But not directly caused by capitalism. What you mean [I think] is that a Utopia could've prevented them. I also apologize for the association of Stalin and Communism if that was a miscommunication.

If everybody earned the same wages but some, say did light work and some hard work, that wouldn't be equal would it? Capitalism did not sit on imperialism. In fact anti-imperialists even stated that you do not need to own the people to trade with them. I admit if the government acted as the governing body of transportation, it would make things easier in some aspects but at the same time "cheaper" may not be correct if the gov't was to turn corrupt. Another concern is if the gov't shut off or controlled all transportation/communication, we would truly be in the hands of the government.

[I will just copy and paste my previous statements]

Restating my previous arguments, Communism, at its core, is a good institution. It strives to equalize society and create comfortable yet modest life for all. Yet the biggest flaw of this system is the lack of checks and balances and the violent nature of it. Communism is, by Marx's theories, achieved through an uprising and revolution of the poor. Afterwards, a dictator is required to take command and that dictator somehow must be pure, kind, generous, free of greed etc to ensure the survival of this Utopian society. And finally, in order to come close to an equal society, all non communists must be destroyed to effect the transition from capitalism to communism.

I really enjoyed this debate with you and I think we both had fun with it. Thank you!

Voting time now! Voters- please vote fairly based on our performances and not on whether or not you like communism or capitalism.
Debate Round No. 4
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by OtakuJordan 3 years ago
OtakuJordan
A. Plagiarism is never justifiable.
B. I did not argue from a Christian standpoint. In fact, I had presented no arguments at all at the time you plagiarized.
C. Stereotyping all Christians as Westboro Baptists is like stereotyping all Communists as mass-murderers simply because Stalin was.
Posted by vaporizeislands 3 years ago
vaporizeislands
I plagiarized with you because I really could not be bothered to take the time to argue with you about your false Christian values.

I'm surprised you can get an internet connection at Westboro!
Posted by OtakuJordan 3 years ago
OtakuJordan
Or maybe because I pointed out your use of plagiarism?
Posted by OtakuJordan 3 years ago
OtakuJordan
Why did you block me? Because I pointed out a flaw in your resolution?
Posted by vaporizeislands 3 years ago
vaporizeislands
It's a general term.

I blocked you anyway, why are you still talking to me?
Posted by OtakuJordan 3 years ago
OtakuJordan
Secondly...?
Posted by vaporizeislands 3 years ago
vaporizeislands
Firstly can we stop assuming I'm a male, I am a female.
Posted by InVinoVeritas 3 years ago
InVinoVeritas
He means nothing. This debate is meaningless.
Posted by OtakuJordan 3 years ago
OtakuJordan
What in the hell do you mean by "has a place"? That the Communist party has a right to exist? That they are useful? That Communist idealogy should be implemented in American law?
Posted by InVinoVeritas 3 years ago
InVinoVeritas
"Have a place"...

I'm not sure if this resolution could be more ambiguously and stupidly phrased.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by kbub 3 years ago
kbub
vaporizeislandsStirlingTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro won the arguments. Genecide is not a strictly communistic ideology. Con should have talked about the problems inherent in Communism instead of some examples of communism gone wrong. Great debate!
Vote Placed by STALIN 3 years ago
STALIN
vaporizeislandsStirlingTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:32 
Reasons for voting decision: Both sides presented good arguments. Pro talked about how Capitalists have had Imperialistic aims. Con talked about how there have been many Communist Dictators. Pro responds to this by talked about Capitalist Dictators. But what really won the debate for Pro was how Pro talked about Capitalism being an unfair form of government as opposed to Communism which creates a fair and equal life for all. Con did provide sources so I will need to give him those 2 points. Good debate.