The Instigator
Lulzy
Con (against)
Winning
21 Points
The Contender
Rocket_Propelled_Gordon
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points

Competitive Team Fortress 2 is Dying.

Do you like this debate?NoYes+1
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
Lulzy
Voting Style: Open Point System: Select Winner
Started: 1/20/2015 Category: Games
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 834 times Debate No: 68613
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (8)
Votes (3)

 

Lulzy

Con

This is a topic that I really feel strongly towards, however, due to how small the competitive community is, I will not be surprised if nobody takes this debate challenge. Anyway, let's get going.

Rules:

First round is for acceptence.
No new arguments in the final round, but current arguments can be debated.
Please, please, PLEASE make at least some sort of attempt at proper spelling and grammar.

I look forward to an interesting debate and hope my opponent does as well.
Rocket_Propelled_Gordon

Pro

Hi. My name is Rocket Propelled Gordon, and I will be debating this topic with you today. I'm kind of new to this thing, so if I get anything mixed up, apologies. I have spent 1885 hours on Team Fortress 2. Although I have never played in any competitive matches, I feel that I can still offer a reasonable debate. Anyway, is competitive TF2 dieing? No. However, given that as you say that it's small, it's bound to fizzle a little over the course of 5-6 years of running. TF2 is just one of those things that you have to trust won't die. If it does, it's no -one- person's fault, but rather it's a case of a in/out sort of thing, where trends give birth to more trends and die. It's just as well that tf2 has no trending offspring; anyway, good day.
Debate Round No. 1
Lulzy

Con

Uh, you did do some stuff wrong. First off, I said that first round is for acceptance, and it looks like you tried to present some arguments. Here, I'll post my debate round and show you how to do it.

Basics:

Before I begin, I would like to introduce the judges to the concept of ESEA and it's skill divisions for TF2. ESEA stands for E-Sports Entertainment Association, and they hold competitive leagues for a variety of games, mostly Counter Strike and Team Fortress 2. In ESEA's divison for Team Fortress 2, there is Open, for the new players, Intermediate, for those who have won Open or placed in the top 3, and Invite, which is considered to be the best. As well as ESEA, there is also UGC, which hosts competitive leagues for games like Counter Strike, DoTA 2, and Team Fortress 2. It also has skill divisions. These are, in order from bottom to top; Iron, Steel, Silver, Gold, and Platinum. It's worth mentioning that the competitive TF2 community usually equates the skill of a person in UGC Platinum to the skill of a person in ESEA Open. Now, TF2 has three forms of competitive play. These are 6v6, 9v9, and 4v4, however, 6v6 is the most common of these three forms of competitive TF2. However, I will not go into how many of what class is played in these game modes, I only mention the various types of competitive play because it will help us determine how many people play. Also worth mentioning is that ESEA runs ONLY 6v6, while UGC runs all three formats. I am also purposefuly leaving out ETF2L, as this Debate will only pertain to the American side of competitive TF2, as ESEA TF2 is America only.

UGC by the numbers:

First of all, UGC is currently in it's 17th season of 6v6, which started on April 1, 2009 [1]. It's in it's 15th season of Highlander, which started on October 10th, 2007 [2]. Finally, it is in it's 4th season of 4v4, which started on January 1st of 2014 [3]. Now, let's see how many players are in each game mode. For 9v9, I went to each individual skill division for North America and added them all together. (This is why I don't have a source, because while these numbers are all from the same website, they are all from different pages of the webside.) The total number of teams in highlander is 755. Now, since there are 9 players per team when it comes to highlander, that means if we multiply 755 by 9, we will get 6,795. This is the number of players for the entirety of 9v9 for UGC. I did this same method for 6v6 and 4v4. The number of teams for 6v6 are 518, and multiply that by 6, which is the number of players per team, and we get 3,108. Finally, let's look at 4v4. Number of team for 4v4 totalled is 291. Multiply this by 4, which is the number of players per team, and we get 1,164. Altogether, if you look at the total number of players in UGC, you get 11,067. As these numbers are all derived from different pages of the same website, I will simply claim the entire website as a source [4].

ESEA by the numbers:

Before I begin, please note that ESEA is a significantly smaller organization than UGC. This is easy to explain, as ESEA contains a fee to play competitively, while UGC is free. However, while not entirely relevant, because ESEA is a pay-to-play league, it has a LAN, and it has monetary prizes for winners of said LAN. That said, I would like to use a fifth source to show you, the judges, the number of total players that have signed up for Open, Intermediate, and Invite collectively [5]. If you will, please take a look at the words above the graph. Next to the label for players, we have 83 total. Scroll down on the page to see the same data for Intermediate and Open. For intermediate, the number is 175, and for open, the number is 489. Added together, the total number of players is 747. Now, if anybody is wondering what the differences is between "Paid" and "Total" is that, the people who are paid are ready to play, and the people who are not paid are substitutes incase a player cannot make it. This is why the number that matters is total players, and not paid players.

With these two arguments, I will end my Round and let Pro take over. Thank you.


Sources:

1 - http://www.ugcleague.com...
2 - http://www.ugcleague.com...
3 - http://www.ugcleague.com...
4 - http://www.ugcleague.com...
5 - http://esearegtracker.fwdcp.net...
Rocket_Propelled_Gordon

Pro

I'm not exactly sure how to reply to that, although now I understand the basic concepts of UGC, ESEA, etc. I still hold firm to my view on this; competitive E-Sports games like these tend to fizzle and come back again and again; although I will agree with you that it's small. I'm not exactly sure why, though.
Also, apologies for doing everything wrong so far.
Debate Round No. 2
Lulzy

Con

Well, in order to reply to it, you have to find evidence somewhere that contradicts my evidence, as it will give the judges (I.E. the people who see this debate) a reason to think you're correct. Here, I'll help you. I gave you evidence that Competitive TF2 existed, and I told you how many players were in each league. Now you can go to those websites, (or different websites) and see if the numbers I gave you were higher or lower than the ones in the previous season.

Anyway, since you didn't exactly make any new arguments, I'll use this opportunity to create new ones.

Contention 1 - LAN and viewer ship

Starting since Season 5 of ESEA, there has been a LAN at the end of every event. To clarify for those unaware, a LAN is a word for Local Access Network. This is basically when a bunch of computers are gathered together and put on one Wi-Fi connection. This ensures low ping and lag. Again, to clarify, ping is a value given to a player in a video game. The lower the number, the less time it takes for the computer to communicate with the server. Because of this, games performed on LAN are radically different than games performed online. I could go on for quite some time about the difference between LAN and Online, but since it's not relevant, I will refrain from doing so unless asked. Anyway, So ESEA has hosted a LAN since Season 5. As previously stated, ESEA is currently in Season 18, meaning that, if you count the LAN that will be at the end of the current season, we see that ESEA has had 13 LANS, this is significant to my arguments because of the fact that ESEA is a business, and like any business, it seeks to make a profit. It does this from donations, viewer ship, player payments, and so on. Now, I mention this because of the fact that competitive TF2 is streamed online for people to see. I bring both of these points up because, if ESEA felt that it was not getting enough money or views from Team Fortress 2, it would shut down it's Team Fortress 2 league. So we can assume that competitive Team Fortress 2 is not only dying, but THRIVING.

Now, I know I said that I said this debate would be for American TF2, and I will hold true to that, except to mention the Insomnia series. [1] This is a European tournament organization that hosts TF2 LANs every Summer. For the purpose of this Debate, I will only mention Insomnia 46, (or i46) Insomnia 49, (or i49) and Insomnia 52 (or i52). Now, for reference, i46 was in 2012, i49 was in 2013, and i52 was in 2014. I bring these up because of the fact that for these three particular LANs, North America sent at least one team. For i46, we sent two, for i49, we sent one, and for i52, we sent two. I'll make this significant by first explaining that each team sent was roughly 6,000 dollars. This is 1,000 per player. So for i46, 12,000 dollars, for i49, 6,000 dollars, for i52, 12,000 dollars. How is this relevant? I'll explain. This amount is relevant due to the fact that, for each LAN, all of the money for these tournaments was raised by crowd funding, donations, or otherwise. We can assume that this means people enjoy watching competitive Team Fortress 2 enough to the point to collectively pay the aforementioned sum of money.

Sources:

1 - http://insomniagamingfestival.com... (Just to show you the Insomnia series exists.)
Rocket_Propelled_Gordon

Pro

First off, as I read your post, I noticed this. "So we can assume that competitive Team Fortress 2 is not only dying, but THRIVING."
Doesn't this kind of contradict itself?
Also,
"Now, I mention this because of the fact that competitive TF2 is streamed online for people to see. I bring both of these points up because, if ESEA felt that it was not getting enough money or views from Team Fortress 2, it would shut down it's Team Fortress 2 league"

Do you have any proof that they have been failing to do so? If not, this statement is null.

"we see that ESEA has had 13 LANS, this is significant to my arguments because of the fact that ESEA is a business, and like any business, it seeks to make a profit. It does this from donations, viewer ship, player payments, and so on. Now, I mention this because of the fact that competitive TF2 is streamed online for people to see."
Yes, but yet again there's no way to know if the entire competitive TF2 community is dieing just by this point. Also, reference to my above post. Unless I was completely blind to your post, you didn't provide any proof showing they haven't been getting donations.

Offtopic, I should join up in one of these competitive rounds. They sound pretty cool.
Debate Round No. 3
Lulzy

Con

My apologizes, when I said that "It is not only dying, but thriving", I accidentally put only. Read the sentence like this instead, "So we can assume that competitive Team Fortress 2 is not dying, but THRIVING." This sound much better, and is what I initially meant to type.

Now, I did not say that ESEA wasn't getting enough revenue. In fact, I said quite the opposite. I said that if ESEA felt that it wasn't, that ESEA would shut down it's TF2 league. I believe you just misunderstood what I said.

Again, I'm not the one trying to prove that TF2 is dying. That's up to you to prove. YOU are supposed to show the judges that Team Fortress 2 is dying as a competitive sport. Therefore, I cannot post proof saying ESEA is not getting donations, because...well... they are, for one. And for two, it would hurt my arguments.

Since you only have one round left, I'm going to not add any new arguments, so you can try and argue the one's I've currently made. Good luck.
Rocket_Propelled_Gordon

Pro

Rocket_Propelled_Gordon forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by Lulzy 2 years ago
Lulzy
Same. Been playing since 07
Posted by Valkrin 2 years ago
Valkrin
And this is why I love TF2
Posted by Lulzy 2 years ago
Lulzy
I was playing on LAN one time, in the 6v6 format (2 scouts, 2 soldiers, 1 demo, 1 medic) and we killed all of their team at mid on Badlands. I IMMEDIATELY did the conga taunt and my whole team joined. We capped Mid and became serious again
Posted by Valkrin 2 years ago
Valkrin
I do that to, except I press "f" to kill.
I accidentally did it mid game once, my team got screwed over after that. :P
Posted by Lulzy 2 years ago
Lulzy
...
...
...
...
-slaps hand-
-pushes "explode" key bind, mid high-five-

What was that for? Lol
Posted by Valkrin 2 years ago
Valkrin
*holds up hand for high five* SLAP MY HAND
Posted by Lulzy 2 years ago
Lulzy
Oh ha ha ha. Good civility there. I suppose you want some sort of comeback.

1. I know it's not dying. That's why I took the side of Con.
2. I'm 17 years old. I'm enjoying what I love while I can. Unlike most people my age, I don't care about getting laid.
3. Please go bother somebody else, as I'm going to ignore everything you say from here on out, good bye.
Posted by wowwhatwhy 2 years ago
wowwhatwhy
It's not dying, just shrinking, like the chance sof you ever getting laid.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by warren42 2 years ago
warren42
LulzyRocket_Propelled_Gordon
Who won the debate:Vote Checkmark-
Reasons for voting decision: I know nothing about this topic, but felt I still knew about as much as Pro.
Vote Placed by Paleophyte 2 years ago
Paleophyte
LulzyRocket_Propelled_Gordon
Who won the debate:Vote Checkmark-
Reasons for voting decision: Pro barely made an argument and forfeited the final round.
Vote Placed by philochristos 2 years ago
philochristos
LulzyRocket_Propelled_Gordon
Who won the debate:Vote Checkmark-
Reasons for voting decision: I can barely understand what this debate is about, but it's pretty evident that Pro offered little in response to Con's arguments. And besides that, Pro forfeited in the end.