The Instigator
Im_always_right
Pro (for)
Losing
3 Points
The Contender
surfride
Con (against)
Winning
7 Points

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/7/2008 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 732 times Debate No: 4945
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (4)
Votes (2)

 

Im_always_right

Pro

Con choose a few things we can debate on and choose the side you wish to be on for each.

I will then argue the other side. Whether or not I agree with the other side.
surfride

Con

Okay, my position is simple, and from your profile, i can see you're against it. My position is that women should be allowed abortions without any conditions before the second trimester of pregnancy, and should be allowed after second trimester if it is in the physical health interests of the mother.
Debate Round No. 1
Im_always_right

Pro

Okay.

Women should not get abortions for these simple reasons:
If te woman slept with a guy, (not in cases of rape of coarse) then she knows ther is a chance of getting STDs or pregnant. People should not have sex, unless they are willing to devote 18+ years with the child.
Abortions should be illegal, for everyday use. Abortion=murder murder=wrong wrong=illegal. Killing an unborn child is wrong, and should NEVER be practiced unless the mother's life is in danger.
If their is no one willing to help raise the child then she shouldn't be getting pregnant should she? She can help it, the only virgin pregnancy I have ever heard of, your profile suggests you wouldn't even believe it happened.
Thus if the woman made the chose to become pregnant she should live with the consiquences.

Late term abortion:

The child COULD be born healthy at any time between 6-10 months (3rd trimester), thus killing the child would be morally wrong. At least as wrong as killing a six month old (Already born) child.
Killing is never acceptable by society.

By those standards [late term]abortions should not be veiwed as socially acceptable, nor morally correct.
surfride

Con

First, I'll attack your murder contention. You say that abortion is murder. first- murder-Law. the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. dictionary.com
so, you must kill a human being for it to qualify as murder. This you have not done. My definition of human is essentially that a human must be human in appearance, or at least recognizably human, must have conciousness, and must be able to feel pain and be able to react to stimuli. An embryo or fetus before the start of the third trimester can react to certain stimuli, but cannot be proven to have conciousness, therefore, by definition, it is not human.
I'll also provide another definition, not one i personally feel applies.
human-Having or showing those positive aspects of nature and character regarded as distinguishing humans from other animals. A human embryo especially cannot be distinguished from an animal embryo by the layperson. In fact, in a biology class i took one time, four diagrams of embryos were shown, and the students wer asked to pick the one they thought was human. I believe that about 90 percent of the class thought that the dog embryo was the human one.
I agree with you absolutely on late term abortions, except that i think they should be allowed if the health of the mother is in danger. Here's my argument for that. A fetus has no conciousness or awareness until very late, and cannot produce children until many years after it is born. a mother is a concious person who can produce more offspring in a much shorter period. Her actual value to society is worth more than the potential value of the fetus to society, therefore mother wins.
"If te woman slept with a guy, (not in cases of rape of coarse) then she knows ther is a chance of getting STDs or pregnant. People should not have sex, unless they are willing to devote 18+ years with the child."
This is your opinion. It is not a fact.

"If their is no one willing to help raise the child then she shouldn't be getting pregnant should she? She can help it, the only virgin pregnancy I have ever heard of, your profile suggests you wouldn't even believe it happened."
What about in cases of rape? When you say that she can help it, do you mean that she could use a contraceptive? This too appears to be an opinion. And no, i don't.

already adressed your late term abortion points.
Right now i have refuted all of your points, and since opinions don't count as facts here, you have no argument at this point. there is no choice but to vote my side at this point.
Debate Round No. 2
Im_always_right

Pro

Fortunately I choose the definition of murder wich is:

Murder- To kill something illegally, or with no need.

This is a very commonly accepted definition:
http://en.wikipedia.org... (it is locked so no one can change it, it is relible, but there is another deffinition similar)

http://dictionary.reference.com...

http://www.merriam-webster.com...

since ripping a baby limb for limb is inhumane, it is murder, babies are human.

1 A member of the species Homo sapiens; a human being.

2 A member of any of the extinct species of the genus Homo, such as Homo erectus or Homo habilis, that are considered ancestral or closely related to modern humans.

Neither require you to "Look human". Is somebody with 8 limbs not human, because she doesn't look human? Is that what my opponent is saying?
Babies can feel pain. When giving birth is the child crying not in pain? Late term abortion delievers the normal pain to both parties and kills the child very brutelly. Same with normal abortion, but everyone can agree that a child can be born in between 6-10 months, even sooner in some cases.

I never said the mother's life wasn't an issue....if by keeping the child, the mother gets cancer and dies, they will both die, better 1 than 2, but also better none than 1. A fetus DOES have conciesness, and can feel. when Xera was pregnant with the twins the girl kept beating up on her brother. As you can see on my avatar, she was sucking her thumb, at about 12 weeks (3 months, which is a lot sooner than 6 months and a whole lot sooner than 10), she is the only one that EVER sucked her thumb and she does to this day.

However, the mother, (if she had the child), produced young offspring, (most likely) capable of producing more offspring in years to come. It is important for the circle of birth, raisng, conception, birth.... to go for ALL generations not just one.

If every woman got an abortion, then there would be no children to continue the process.

If you don't know whether the child is alive yet or not, then don't risk it actually being alive and being ripped apart limb by limb, and having the brains sucked out. Think of it like this:

If you wouldn't be able to do it to an animal, without charges of animal cruelity, than why would you do it to a baby, and why should it be legal?

It is not an opinion it is a fact. If you know what sex is then you know you (if you are a woman) CAN get pregnant, no amount of birth control, can change that FACT.

I was pretty sure I excluded cases of rape. of course if she's raped she can't help it, if she can't help it then it's not her fault. If it's not her fault and her life would be in danger, or there is no way the child could be adopted, then yes abortion may be acceptable. I think my opponent misunderstood me. I believe it is wrong under normal surcumstances, which exclude:

Rape
Mother's life in danger.

Please wait as long as you can to respond, I will be gone for about a week and unable to post a reply.
surfride

Con

First of all, I contest your definition of fetus and human. Not one of the sources you provided listed the definitions you used. Therefore, my definition stands.
Second, you still have not proven a fetus to be a human. A fetus is not a baby. definition of fetus-the young of an animal in the womb or egg, esp. in the later stages of development when the body structures are in the recognizable form of its kind, in humans after the end of the second month of gestation. http://dictionary.reference.com...
The definition of baby-A very young human being, from birth to a couple of years old. http://en.wiktionary.org...
Therefore baby /=/ fetus.
So, I have now proven that a baby is not equal to a fetus. Now i will prove that a fetus is not a human.
First of all, feti (sic?) cannot feel pain until third trimester. http://jama.ama-assn.org...
Second, feti are not capable of passing or even taking the most basic conciousness tests such as the Turing test or mirror test. Thus, while these cannot prove that they lack conciousness, they cannot prove that it exists.
Third, before 12 weeks, there is no brain function in the fetus, meaning that there is definitely no conciousness prior. Also, even though there is brain function at 12 weeks, this does not positively prove consiousness. In addition, since the basic nerves to sense pain are not even intact by 26 weeks by the earliest estimate, and pain is one of the most basic brain function, it is the logical conclusion that there is no higher brain function, the kind that is necessary for conciousness. http://en.wikipedia.org...
Your argument to fetal conciousness is not valid. If kicking, fighting, and sucking on one's thumb proves conciousness, than I'm sure just about everything in the animal kingdom would qualify as having conciousness (if the criterion could be changed from "thumb" to "appendage")

>If every woman got an abortion, then there would be no children to continue the process.<
Yes, but since there are I'm told many joys of children, i can't see why everyone would. Also, this is irrelevant, as it is impossible, and proves nothing. And there is another option: cloning.

>If you don't know whether the child is alive yet or not, then don't risk it actually being alive and being ripped apart limb by limb, and having the brains sucked out.<
I believe i have successfully proved lack of life earlier.

>If you wouldn't be able to do it to an animal, without charges of animal cruelity, than why would you do it to a baby, and why should it be legal?<
Well, since they put animals down all the time, and i doubt that it's completely painless, i don't see how it is relevant. Especially since feti can't feel pain until beginning of third trimester, at which point, as i said, there should not be abortion except in cases of emergency.

>It is not an opinion it is a fact. If you know what sex is then you know you (if you are a woman) CAN get pregnant, no amount of birth control, can change that FACT<
The part that was opinion was when you said that a woman should not get pregnant unless she can devote 18+ years to raising a child. Yes, most women know they can get pregnant. But whether they know what risks they take or not, that has no bearing on whether they should be allowed to get an abortion. Although you may not like it if someone knows the risks and does it anyway, then refuses to carry to term, that does not matter. Just because people might not like that is not a reason to outlaw it.

>I was pretty sure I excluded cases of rape.<
My mistake i'm sorry.
Debate Round No. 3
Im_always_right

Pro

Im_always_right forfeited this round.
surfride

Con

surfride forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
Im_always_right

Pro

Im_always_right forfeited this round.
surfride

Con

surfride forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by Im_always_right 8 years ago
Im_always_right
Off topic, I love how we can see why people are voting the way they are now....
Posted by gahbage 8 years ago
gahbage
note*

Not editing comments is stupid.
Posted by gahbage 8 years ago
gahbage
Ah, so my human mind is a human itself? =O

On a side not, you should get to work on that Obama baby.
Posted by LR4N6FTW4EVA 8 years ago
LR4N6FTW4EVA
Surfride, I hate the "look remotely human" criteria. Under this, a hypothetical fish, with the mind of a human, is not human. While this occurrence is unlikely, the hypothetical fish would still be human.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
Im_always_rightsurfrideTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Vote Placed by Katie01 8 years ago
Katie01
Im_always_rightsurfrideTied
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Total points awarded:30