The Instigator
Jlconservative
Pro (for)
Losing
9 Points
The Contender
Daddy_Warbux
Con (against)
Winning
54 Points

Confederate Flag's should not be aloud.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/19/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 3,929 times Debate No: 1989
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (10)
Votes (21)

 

Jlconservative

Pro

The above statement is pretty much it I do not like opening with a full argument because I usually run our of steam by the third and start repeating myself, In my views the confederate flag represents a threat to national security and a rebellion and regardless as to why or what the reason they should not be flown or worn to a certain extent is my opinion.

I hope that people will vote not on what they believe is right but on who is a better arguer and has a stronger opinion.
Daddy_Warbux

Con

It is freedom of speech. Even if I do not agree what it stands for, it is symbolic speech. It is the negative speech like this that actually needs an amendment to protect it. If something is universally agreed upon, from whom is it being protected?

How does it threaten security? If it does, then so do any other banners, flags, stickers, clubs, groups or mottos other than "American" that people identify themselves with.
Debate Round No. 1
Jlconservative

Pro

I do not completely want them removed as I said in my opening statement which apparently my opponent did not read ,I believe that to some extent they should be removed, for instance as a historical and respectable approach to the civil war they should play a major role, however in a place such as a school or any public place they should not be allowed to be worn.

The confederate army were fighting for many reasons however one of them is and must be remembered to support and keep slavery an active role in society, now I am a republican conservative I am for free speech 100% but to allow a display in the classroom of a school that clearly shows the flag of a group of people supporting African American slavery is ridicules and should not be allowed what so ever.

We must remember that the confederate flag does not represent the fun wild south it represents a rebellion of men fighting to uphold slavery and it should not be allowed in a school or a public area.

Also, I did not say it IS a threat to national security that would be absurd, I said it WAS a threat to national security and must remembered as one.
Daddy_Warbux

Con

"In my views the confederate flag represents a threat to national security"
No tense was specified.

"We must remember that the confederate flag does not represent the fun wild south it represents a rebellion of men fighting to uphold slavery and it should not be allowed in a school or a public area."
It represents different things to different people. To you and me, it may represent slavery, and we therefore would not wear it. But I have a friend who does wear the confederate flag, but is also friends with many black students. I've asked him why he wears it and he always says it is because it represents TO HIM what the south is: Calm and relaxation, a different lifestyle. I have also seen black men wearing Confederate flag belt buckle in Virginia. I believe as long as they are not actually inciting any violence, Confederate flags in schools should not be banned. It is like the Supreme Court's decision that talking about overthrowing the government as an abstraction is legal, but actually taking steps to do so would be illegal.

"now I am a republican conservative I am for free speech 100%"
This is a bit off-topic, but why would a republican conservative be more likely to be for free speech than anyone else? It was not stated directly, but it seemed to be insinuated.
Debate Round No. 2
Jlconservative

Pro

First of all exactly It is not a threat to national security however it is the flag of a force that was.

Secondly you make an excellent point, however if we are going to look at it from two sides let me tell you what it represents here, apparently in northern Pennsylvania (sorry I had to look up your state my argument depended on it) there is generally no issue with it. However in the deep south were I am currently living (Florida) there are fights daily on school grounds and off because of the Confederate flag, the most popular bumper sticker shows a confederate flag and then has the statement, "Fighting terrorism since 1861" there have also been some racist homicides in which the confederate flag makes it appearance this year. The fact is southern states have a different take of the confederate flag as the northern states do. In my middle,high and now college the confederate flag has been the instigator in a number of situations. Almost at every corner there is a confederate flag flying next to the U.S.A. It is an issue in the southern states still, there are people down here that still hold racial views and fly the confederate flag not for the "Calm and relaxation, a different lifestyle" but for the rebellion and the racial discrimination we should always remember it represents.

Oh yes a also one more thing, I meant nothing of the sort by stating that I am a republican conservative, of course not democrats and republicans alike both stand for free speech. I simply find that republicans try and uphold the constitution more and democrats try to change it more, again not trying to get into a rep vs demo debate I apologize for even brining it up.
Daddy_Warbux

Con

You would think there are no troubles where I live, but Lancaster county is different from other parts of Pennsylvania. There are a whole group of racist students and confederate flag wearing rednecks. Yes, many of them do think black people are inferior. There was even a day a few years ago when students organized to wear white t-shirts to show that they believed in white supremacy. That may not be part of the debate, but I feel it was necessary to validate my view.

The Confederate flag causing "fights daily on school grounds and off" does not make much sense as an argument. Say, for example, that the fights are started by those who saw the flag and were upset by it. There was another Supreme Court decision (forgive me for forgetting the specific case, it has been over a year since I read about it) that says that, if violence is started by a person bothered by the speech of another, it is the fault of the person who reacted violently for doing so, not the fault of the speaker. But let us say that the fights are started by those displaying the flag. Is it really the flag that causes these fights? The reason for the fights is not the flag; the reason for the fights is the same reason that these individuals display the flag: racism. Racism is what would have caused the fights in this case, the fact that one human being is ignorant enough to think that skin color makes a person inferior. If caused by the flag bearer, the fights most likely would have occured even if the flag was not displayed.

And could the "'Fighting terrorism since 1861'" not refer to fighting the strong central government that was the reason for the Confederate States' secession in the fist place? The problem is, we cannot know the meaning without asking the person displaying it. But we cannot assume that EVERY person displaying a Confederate flag is racist and wishes another race to be enslaved.

Also, I do not disagree that schools and other public institutions should not display the confederate flag. But it is an individual's choice as to whether or not they want most people to see them as a bigoted moron, even if that is not the message they are trying to send.
Debate Round No. 3
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by C-Mach 9 years ago
C-Mach
I'm afraid Daddy Warbux is right: The First Amendment protects this right.
Posted by Jlconservative 9 years ago
Jlconservative
Ouch calling me a liberal is pretty insulting clsmooth you are truly starting to sound like an insane Ron Paul supporter oh wait it looks like you actually are. I am a 100% conservative my friend, I have not one liberal bone or cell in my body. Forgive me also I jumped off the deep end in my statements before you apparently have some form of intelligence difficult to find threw all of your generalizations, irrational statements, and naiveness but sure I will give you some credit. First of all I was in private Catholic school from 2 years old to 15 years old when I graduated from high school. I am absolutely not a pawn of the government school system I never have been and never will be, Secondly I despise government along with being a pro Lincoln supporter I am also an enormous fan of Ronald Reagan who in my opinion was the best president this country has ever had. I can give you sir a million reasons why I despise government but I wont unless you want to debate me because frankly this is beginning to be annoying.

However I will address the charges against my childhood hero. Yes yes yes yes your correct about the statement I have read this speech many times. I hope you will challenge me to a debate about Lincoln because there is to much information to place in such a small comment, I will say one thing however to discredit Lincoln for his comments are to discredit all of the founding fathers for each and every one of them were slave owners, may I remind you that although Lincoln did have thoughts about the black race that are abundantly false, in general every white being in the 1860's.However although he did not think the black race was equal to the white race which is absurd he did abolish slavery for what ever reason you cannot say he did not end slavery HE DID. Also I cannot believe that you expect the abolishment of slavery to be a smooth and simple transaction. Things like rights take time...Lincoln was simply a small step but a step towards freedom he was.
Posted by clsmooth 9 years ago
clsmooth
By the way, JLLiberal is a perfect example of what government indoctrination centres (public schools) do to the mind. He is like an Orwellian caricature.

First, he's a government-worshiping, central-statist liberal calling himself a conservative; and then he has the audacity to suggest I learned an Austro-Jeffersonian perspective from the Lincoln-worshiping, government-exalting concentration camp I was forced to attend from age 5 to age 18. Oh boy, another liberal passing himself off to students as a conservative and thus turning them against conservatism... If the neocons aren't part of the Left's master plan, then they are certainly doing their bidding.
Posted by clsmooth 9 years ago
clsmooth
What is exactly untrue?

Are you saying Lincoln wasn't a white supremacist?

Here is a quote from Lincoln:

"I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races - that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything."

What else are you going to deny? That Lincoln micromanaged the war? That the war resulted in massive destruction of private property and murder of civilians? That Lincoln destroyed printing presses and jailed opponents? That he invaded the South without formal declaration of war? That his party carried out genocide against the Plains Indians? That he and his party were for protectionism, national banking, and subsidized internal improvements?

There is no debate. These are all facts. Even pro-Lincolnites admit them. There is no disputing any of what I said.
Posted by Jlconservative 9 years ago
Jlconservative
Like Hitler, Lincoln was a hardcore white supremacist. He opposed the expansion of slavery because he wanted to keep the North exclusively for white people. After the Civil War, he intended to deport all blacks to Africa and Haiti.

Like Hitler, Lincoln waged war on civilians. He micromanaged the Civil War and ordered destruction of private property and killing of innocent civilians; including women and children.

Like Hitler, Lincoln abhorred free speech. He destroyed the printing presses of anti-government newspapers and had editors jailed. He jailed any opponents of his without trial. It was not only a crime to criticize Lincoln, but also to NOT defend him in the face of criticism.

Like Hitler, Lincoln was an imperialist. He invaded the sovereign South with no declaration of war, and had his eyes of Mexico, too. After Lincoln's death, his party organized mass genocide of the Plains Indians.

Like Hitler, Lincoln was a National Socialist. He hated capitalism and free markets. He believed in the fascist "American System" of Henry Clay -- Hamiltonianism on steroids. This consisted of protectionist tariffs to benefit big business, corporate welfare, nationalization of industry, and most importantly, income taxation and nationalized fiat-money central banking. These are all consistent with Nazism.

hahaha none of this is true...I cannot believe you actually expect people to buy this, I study history for a living I am starting a teaching job in 2009 at Purdue University people take it from me this is all rubbish its like listening to Scientology just complete foolishness I wonder where you got all this information because the Lincoln I have been studying for 12 years has had absolutely nothing to do with what your suggesting wow....is this what government school does to you?
Posted by Jlconservative 9 years ago
Jlconservative
cls your history is about as accurate as your opinions, full of foolishness and inaccuracy you don't want to debate me about history unless your looking for a defeat. Lincoln is the greates president in American history and your suggesting he was an American Hitler....this is absurd you my friend are a complete idiot, now I never judge people without reason but based on what you just said your a complete moron... Also I love how I am always the one getting attacked on the sidelines buy comments because and only because I am a conservative if you want to try and bash me debate, congrats warbux you clearly won this first time I have lost on this site.
Posted by clsmooth 9 years ago
clsmooth
A better way of saying it would be to call Hitler the German Lincoln. Hitler praised Lincoln in Mein Kampf for destroying state's rights and centralizing authority.

Like Hitler, Lincoln was a hardcore white supremacist. He opposed the expansion of slavery because he wanted to keep the North exclusively for white people. After the Civil War, he intended to deport all blacks to Africa and Haiti.

Like Hitler, Lincoln waged war on civilians. He micromanaged the Civil War and ordered destruction of private property and killing of innocent civilians; including women and children.

Like Hitler, Lincoln abhorred free speech. He destroyed the printing presses of anti-government newspapers and had editors jailed. He jailed any opponents of his without trial. It was not only a crime to criticize Lincoln, but also to NOT defend him in the face of criticism.

Like Hitler, Lincoln was an imperialist. He invaded the sovereign South with no declaration of war, and had his eyes of Mexico, too. After Lincoln's death, his party organized mass genocide of the Plains Indians.

Like Hitler, Lincoln was a National Socialist. He hated capitalism and free markets. He believed in the fascist "American System" of Henry Clay -- Hamiltonianism on steroids. This consisted of protectionist tariffs to benefit big business, corporate welfare, nationalization of industry, and most importantly, income taxation and nationalized fiat-money central banking. These are all consistent with Nazism.
Posted by Vikuta 9 years ago
Vikuta
cls, please explain why you believe Lincoln is the American Hitler. I'm very interested in hearing your reasons.
Posted by clsmooth 9 years ago
clsmooth
I love it. Another "conservative" against states rights, freedom of speech, accurate history, and the South and its people.

And then he has the audacity to say the word "Constitution," which the South was fighting to uphold, and Lincoln HATED (he said so time and time again in his early career) as an obstacle to his dream of Hamiltonian fascism.

Lincoln, the American Hitler, was unquestionably a terrorist. If anything, his likeness should be banned from public places just as the face of Stalin was removed from post-Soviet Russian landmarks.

Lincoln didn't end slavery; he nationalized it.
Posted by Randomknowledge 9 years ago
Randomknowledge
this is quite a heated argument, i think im going to vote for con, however. Very good, very good, both of you.
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