The Instigator
EBaldofsky
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
K.GKevinGeary
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Confederate stands for rebellion not slavery now a days

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/22/2012 Category: Politics
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 895 times Debate No: 21374
Debate Rounds (5)
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EBaldofsky

Pro

Set up
Round 1 = acceptance

Rules
Forfeit and you lose conduct.
No "shouting" or bad language
Only accept this debate if you are actually against it.

I look forward to hearing my opponents points.
K.GKevinGeary

Con

A confederacy by the dictionary is a band or union of individuals who's intent is to conduct illicit practices, or conspiracy. Some form of those practices can in fact be categorized as slavery. Not all who have a Confederate Flag on a pole in front of their residence reason that their flag represents slavery in contemporary times (that would be stereotyping) however, some individuals who fly the red flag with the blue x's with the white stars clearly demonstrate that their race of people is superior to another group of people. That superior group being individuals who are white and the inferior group those who are not white.
The Confederate flag only has meaning to those who put meaning onto the flag. Can the flag be symbolized as southern pride or is that just touching the surface? The history of the flag is rooted in slavery. People of color being owned by white individuals. A Nazi flag can spur the idea of the genocide that took place or can just be seen as a symbol of German Nationalism. With German nationalism came the eradication of many innocent individuals under that black swastika and blood red flag. Those who survived the brutal middle passage from Africa's western coast (also who came from Europe or elsewhere) were forced to work under the Confederate flag in blood and tears. When they finished their duties the white family who hung that flag would reside for the day at their leisure. Notice people of color who finished the grueling work were robbed of their family and their roots hence why in contemporary times a person of color has the last name O'Grady when Irish or English descent is far from their ethnicity. Malcolm X gave himself that X due to the fact that his last name was not his but, of someone who owned his ancestors underneath that confederate flag or another flag that advocated for non white folks being owned by whites. Like many items it is easy not to peer deep into the true meaning behind something. For example Nike, Nike shoes are not worth more than a dollar or two if that but, are sold for sixty to over a hundred times in the West. In China grueling factories similar to a sweat shop is where these shoes are made. The people who some are just mere children in early adolescence work in these miserable conditions for next to nothing but for subsidence. The alienation of these workers aren't seen when T.I. or Jay-Z walk around in their fresh pair by the majority of their audience. The meaning many people see is a style, a fashion that is in (or out for that matter), in sum, a meaning. To state that the Confederate flag's meaning is a symbol of southern pride is hiding something touchy for those brave enough to look through the flag, not just at the surface. Not that I am stating that the Northern flag is innocent or the current U.S. flag is one sent down by heaven but to state that the Confederate flag has no connection to slavery in the South at all is a farce. Slavery is overt racism when the idea of whiteness comes into the cards of play.
The history of the Confederate flags whether the Stainless flag, the Bonnie blue flag that many people of U.S. died under, the Blood Stained Banner has firm roots in slavery. To display the flag comes the meaning of what the flag is being displayed for. Can the Confederate flag just be raised to represent heritage? Many can see the enriching history of the flag as heritage but, that flag has a vast amount of meanings to an immense quantity of people (three hundred million plus) that compose the U.S.A. Can we all get along in peace, no, but, can we try, yes, probable, most likely not in our lifetime or for the lifetime of the human species. Meanings run deep. The clear cut definition of right and wrong is hard to come by even when it is not a tough issue of debate. To hang the Confederate Flag anywhere in the U.S. can protrude on someone else's life in a negative way even if that person who hung their flag had innocent intentions. Not all racism is overt, for some individuals subtle racism and the meaning can harm an individual even more than the loud kind. In contemporary times it would be nice for the human species to all get along and see that on an innate human level each other as the same regardless of what flag they choose to display because, a flag is something humans put a meaning to.
Debate Round No. 1
EBaldofsky

Pro

By bringing the Nazi Flag into the argument you are starting a new argument. The Nazi Flag was a flag that represented Hitlers regime and his idea of taking over the world and being able to be a world conqueror. He wanted to kill people. Yes the confederate flag originated in the south. But what were the reasons that the south wanted to seceded from the north. When Abraham Lincoln was elected as president in 1860. Southerners thought the government was becoming too strong. They did not think the government had the right to tell them how they should live. Southerners felt if they stayed in the United States, the North would control them.

Due to the southern states leaving the United States of America they need to create a flag which ended up to be the confederate flag. They REBELLED from the northern states and one of their beliefs were to have the right to own slaves. It represents states rights. Just like when America rebelled from England. Does are flag represent the belief on not to tax?
K.GKevinGeary

Con

Owning a slave was a right to the south. Therefore the confederate flag stands for protecting their way of life, which was slavery. Then that flag has the meaning of owning slaves behind it regardless if it was a state right or any law. In contemporary times then that flag bears the weight of the state right mentioned (slavery, white superiority). After the war when Abraham Lincoln was killed by John Wilkes Booth. Booth had the idea that the south would look at him as a hero, protecting their way of life for generations to come. The south did not look at him as such as the local media (newspapers, word of mouth) construed him to be a murderer not a hero for generations to come as he likened to identify himself as. Being a killer is a slave owner. A slave owner might not necessarily execute their slaves but a on a human level this act of slavery totally alienates the slave from themselves. That alienation, being their way of life whether cultural beliefs, family ideals, language, dress and so on. The slave is not at home when at work. What the slave produces with his very hands is not something he owns or even has an ideal of what he is necessarily producing for his owner but that production is therefore, for his owner. The slave does not see the finished product of his work. The slave owner did not want their slaves to read and write to develop knowledge hence the death that would transpire if someone was caught teaching the slave(s) knowledge. Knowledge is something that can't be whipped to submission, it exists in the brain which houses the mind. The mind being powerful. Like slavery today it is a killer behind the human trafficking of men, women, and children. No one is putting a gun to their head (not in all cases) however, they are the property of someone else. The south protecting a state right of slavery is nothing but greed, almost free labor to spur more money for their economic system of capital. Who has the right to own another human being? What someone produces with their own hands is there's not someone else's unless they choose to give it to someone else. The hands are attached to the body. The slaves who built the U.S.A.'s ancestry has one month out of the year to celebrate black history. Waving a Confederate flag at a black fist friday event has deep meaning. Some may view this utter disrespect as others might interpret the meaning to be one that the flag represents their backs being the ones that built this country from the ground up after the real Americans (Indians) were exterminated and the fences of property came into play. The meaning of that flag in current times has slavery rooted in its stitches even if it was stitched as a state right.
Our flag does not represent on not to tax but, not to be taxed by a government that exists across the pond (Atlantic Ocean). To tax domestically for the furthering of domestic industry as well as keeping the thirteen colonies funds for the thirteen colonies not for a King to collect to further his motives and oppression of the new land that the Italian Christopher Columbus financed by Spain happened to stumble upon. Concurring confederacy does mean a rebellion or unification of individuals however, for the South that unification wanted to preserve an ideal of a human being owning another human being as a right for those superior to the inferior. When superior relies on property and color. That superiority is nothing but a farce however, that flag does identify with slavery. That farce is why people of color who knew how to read, write, and communicate were one of the most dangerous people in the North, the South, and current times.
Debate Round No. 2
EBaldofsky

Pro

Now a days the state of Mississippi has the Confederate Battle Flag in it. In 2001, Mississippi legislative but to vote if they wanted to change the flag which was turned down. So you are to tell that the state of Mississippi does in fact support the idea of slavery. You do say that confederacy does mean a rebellion or unification of individuals. If you go outside and start waving the flag in a black community people will not agree with it. The only reason they will have that feeling is because of the history of the flag. The debate is about does is stand as slavery now a days.
You have those people that call them self rednecks that live in the northern states such as New Jersey and New York. They fly confederate flags but no one calls them racist. They call those people wanna be rednecks. Rednecks are commonly known for their rebellious life style. You can say that you can rebel from anything.
K.GKevinGeary

Con

I personally live in New Jersey (as I checked out your profile you do as well) and have heard people call others racist for bearing the Confederate flag out of their window of their truck. I have also heard the term fake rednecks as well. But not trying to commit an ad hominem here I just wanted to point out another view of the Northern States and going back to my first argument in round one that there is meaning behind that flag in current times that is correlated to determining the subjective and objective interpretation of the Confederate Flag whether, it simply stands for rebellion, slavery in relation to color superiority or both.
In 2001 the Mississippi legislative in a state referendum had sixty four percent of the votes leaning towards not to change the current flag to thirty six percent to change the flag to the twenty stars that would replace the confederate flag. Note, almost sixty percent of individuals living in Mississippi are white compared to thirty seven percent who are people who are black as the residual percent falls in the left over ethnic categories. The estimated population in 2012 of Mississippi is 2,978,514 compared to the three million people plus that live in the United States of America. The U.S.A. has about thirteen percent of individuals below the poverty level. In Mississippi that average is twenty one percent. With a brief overview of understanding the dominant race in Mississippi I would like to peer deeper into this issue. There is only one person of color currently sitting at the lowest of the seniority hierarchy of the Mississippi Supreme Court (Justice King). Again King is not the first person of color to compose the Supreme Court of Mississippi but, I would like to note that in this power system it is mainly composed of individuals who are white. The white race still is in dominant roles across the spectrum whether in the police, fire department, Presidents, C.E.O.'s and so fourth when it comes to jobs and power whether local , state, or governmental. To look at the empirical statistics of the dominant race in Mississippi provides insight on who went out to the ballots but, furthermore.
Now a broad black community (remember some people of color are not essentially African Americans but Jamaican Americans) does not necessarily subjectively react to the flag as one of hideousness and atrocity. Some see that flag as a symbol that their race in fact was the building block to what made this country what it is today through their slavery, their backbone toiling in the elements not the white folks. Others can see the flag subjectively as one that symbolizes their oppression and bring up hatred for the holder of that Confederate flag even if the holder of that flag does not wish to shed any feelings of contempt and oppression to another individual. Regardless if the flag was to harm someone personally specifically a person of color many white people just do not understand what its like to be oppressed and deal with the everyday monotony of being black. Whether it is driving while black, shopping while black (double conscience) and so forth being black makes everyday more challenging in a white superior country. A white man whether a wanna be redneck in the north, a racial bigot, or an honest historian protecting history can devastate someone subjectively when the Confederate flag is displayed in honor similar to how the Washington Redskins Mascot makes a mockery out of Native American culture. Native Americans being the real settlers of the land I personally sit on in my home, that land was stolen from them. For those with roots linking them to true Native American descent a dancing Indian at half time yelling "pow wow wow , pow wow wow wow etc.", and dressing up in a gown that is not right makes a mockery out of their culture and ancient beliefs. The Indian sound isn't the one many cartoons likened it to be but one of a heartbeat a simple drum to represent their noise not what many people in contemporary U.S. culture belief their dance and music to be. Objectively likened to this idea the flag does have history that relates to slavery and cannot be ignored as just simply a rebellion but historically and meaningfully has a deeper impact on those who see it psychologically when presented. I do not know or can know what racial group of individuals voted for and nah regarding the flag referendum to be retained in 2001, though that would be highly interesting if there was statistics to group the votes. To simply state that I am confederate can be to what is pertained in the dictionary as rebellious. Yes I can rebel from anything I perceive unjust or just for that matter if that was my stance on an issue. Slavery and the Confederacy are deeply correlated with one in another. But if the argument is simply regarding that any confederacy or union of people band together for something that has nothing to do with history or the Confederacy of the South then that has absolutely nothing to do with the flag and so forth in today's time. I can be a in a confederacy of men against the X issue and have no implication to the history of the confederacy just simply that I am confederate against X. It is difficult to determine the right and wrong of something. What is the essential significance of Right and what is the connotation of Wrong? How can the true significance of Right and Wrong be applied to this issue in contemporary times? To simply diminish slavery not tied to the Confederate flag cannot be Right. How someone subjectively interprets that flag can be clouded in Rightness or Wrongness. Mississippi does not allow anyone to own slaves which answers the question: Who has the right to someone else's body? Mississippi though displaying that flag has not diminished its roots in slavery. Though slavery is in fact illegal, Mississippi still waves the flag of Slavery high in the sky and that can be seen visually and be perceived as such now in days. Therefore if the flag of Slavery is flown slavery is just that and that flag represents Slavery. I can own a I hate X flag and not actively go out on a revulsion riot in opposition to X. But that X still has a meaning.
Debate Round No. 3
EBaldofsky

Pro

EBaldofsky forfeited this round.
K.GKevinGeary

Con

In 1776 the U.S.A. succeeded from England. In the North there was slaves as well as in the south. Is the fourth of July a racial holiday? Or does the U.S.A flag currently stand for slavery in contemporary times? Northern soldiers who fought for the centralist government did own slaves as did southern soldiers who fought for their local government. Slavery dates back to antiquity. The South was constantly being taxed by the North though high tariffs on exported goods but, mainly cotton that was traded in Europe. Cotton was not a delicacy of the North and the Northern economy could not keep up with the South's business of cotton. In the North, in factories there was another form of slavery that can go unnoticed. Child labor in factories at the extreme radical end of the factory work. The Factory Act of 1833 relieved everyday life for these types of slaves working for subsistence in the North. Workers were children just as young as five years old. Children in factory life was cruel, hostile, and these children were beaten brashly with most hideous of tasks with the most dire consequences. Their jobs consisted of getting into inactive equipment to fix the problem where these children's bodies would be mutilated and maimed. What is the meaning of Right? Lincoln's revision of the Morill Tariff would essentially drain the funds out of the South like a parasite. The original Morill Tariff replaced the Tariff of 1857 that benefited the South. Lincoln passing this tariff was a reason to the South withdrawing as the tax would harm their way of life. Therefore slavery was not the only reason to why the Civil War was engaged. Like many wars today that are fought. A certain profit was at stake. A Democracy is what the Union stated their political ideology to be. A democracy is the consent of the governed. The founding fathers were heavily influenced by writers such as John Locke. The current U.S. flag is not innocent. The consent of the Southern people's will politically and economically was not accounted for. This theme is recurring. In contemporary time how isolated is the citizens of the U.S.A. from each other that spurs this idea that each citizen cannot see that they truly hold the power within and are equal to each other. The alienation of citizen to citizen makes a mockery out of current U.S. democracy. The word boss is derived from the Dutch language. The word boss essentially means a slave owner. The individual who rallied up the slaves and sent them around the world. Every single day laws are passed arbitrarily. How is this a democracy when citizens are not actively apart of the laws being passed in current times. Individuals like Donald Trump take away tax dollars from N.J. as he runs businesses intentionally to the ground to go bankrupt such as a gambling ring. So when students of N.J. complain about their debt to a public institution individuals like Trump are laughing literally all the way to the bank. Does a public institution of higher education be at the expense of thousands of dollars? People today vote for candidates because "I like the way he looks and sounds". Individuals who state that should get their democratic voting license revoked. "I know that I know nothing" (Plato). Plato clearly defined why democracy is one of the worst governments. Everyone passes judgment. Well that judgment killed the wisest person due to the charge of corrupting the youth when Socrates was teaching the youth philosophy. A democracy killed the wisest person. The U.S. Flag is not Right or heading in the Right direction in contemporary times. Innocence of the North is not true and the current U.S. flag does represent slavery and racism. Individuals starve everyday in the U.S.A.'s backyard. That is not brought up at the U.N. meetings that take place in the U.S. The eradication of young black men to a prison cell is what occurs everyday as society sits idle and individuals cannot see the deep connection between each other. Inwardly someone is starving because I have the luxury to sit here in a decent chair with a decent computer. As I gain this privilege others sacrifice for it and have no idea that they are playing into the racial ideology of the U.S.A. to keep the white race at the top. Individuals kill others that look just like them and these folks will never gain the experience that others gain from their despair. This killing is a form of bondage that represents the current U.S.A.'s flag. In this round my point is that the North is not Right and the current U.S.A. is not Right. What is the true meaning of the word Right and the word Wrong? How can this be obtained to progress an individual, a group of people or a country?
Debate Round No. 4
EBaldofsky

Pro

EBaldofsky forfeited this round.
K.GKevinGeary

Con

Conclusion: Confederacy is a flag of heritage and one of slavery.
Debate Round No. 5
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