The Instigator
SANTORUM2012
Pro (for)
Losing
3 Points
The Contender
imabench
Con (against)
Winning
21 Points

Conservative versus liberal (I will have conservative view)

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 6 votes the winner is...
imabench
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/27/2012 Category: Politics
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 14,417 times Debate No: 23234
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (20)
Votes (6)

 

SANTORUM2012

Pro

Round 1: acceptance/greetings
Round 2: opening arguments
Round 3: Rebuttals
Round 4: closing arguments

I look forward to a challenging bu peaceful debate. I pro will root on the side of Conservative while my opponent will root on the side of liberal.
imabench

Con

I have no idea how this is going to work but last I checked I am a liberal and thats all I need to be apparently to accept this debate.

I accept the debate, state your case.

Debate Round No. 1
SANTORUM2012

Pro

Conservatism is the disposition to preserve or restore what is established and traditional and to limit change. The opposite of Conservative is Liberal which are favorable to progress or reform.

Many debates come about when discussing which one of these points of views would help us better grow as a country after all it has been said many times "We all want the same things in life. We want freedom; we want the chance for prosperity; we want as few people suffering as possible; we want healthy children; we want to have crime-free streets. The argument is how to achieve them…" In this debate I will argue that conservatism is the stronger and more reliable way of acheiving the goals mentioned above.

Conservatism is often linked to christian or bible beliefs. I believe the reason for this is because many of the beliefs under conservatism match the ones in the Christian Bible. This, however, does not mean that every Conservative is Christian or religious for that matter as some liberals are christians too and some conservatives are athiest.

Next, I will address a few of the issues liberals and conservatives most often disagree on.

1. Abortion

This is one thing liberals and conservatives go at about constantly. Liberals believe that a woman has the right to her on body while Conservatives believe that whatever the case, a precious life should not be murdered. I honestly think that whether your liberal or conservative, democrat or republican, black or white, male or female, old or young, whatever the case murder of an innocent child should not be justified.

2. Gay marriage

Liberals often air on the side that we are a free people and we should have the right to marry who we want as long as it does not infringe on another human beings right. Conservatives argue that gay marriage is immoral and does in fact infringe on somebody's rights (the children as they deserve a mother and a father). America has been telling children that homosexuality is wrong since day one. Do you not think that if we start changing what we stand for that it is just going to start causing confusion and rebelion?
I understand if someone really wants to get married then that is fine but marriage is not what they want. What it really is is societal acceptance. Ex. The netherlands is the most liberal country in the world and they were the first ones to legalize gay marriage. Of the whole gay community, 96% of them did not get married after it was legalized. Of the 4% that did, the average time that they stayed together was 1 1/2 years. What they were looking for was not marriage. It was acceptance of the country. It's dangerous to start changing wrong and right just because people want to be accepted. (which would b fine if the act was not unjust.)

3. Taxes and Government

Liberals are usually on the side of larger taxes and larger government while Conservatives are typically for smaller government and smaller taxes. I obviously feel that conservatives have the more legitimate argument because we all want the chance as well as for our children to have the chance at the American Dream. I don't see how allowing the government to have accessive access to our money will prove that what we work for is ours and ours alone. I understand that taxes are necassary for a steady running economy but does it not only make sence that what we work for should be ours?

These are just 3 of the many issues conservatives and liberals disagree on. There are many more such as Affirmative Action, Gun control, Social Security, Health Care, Immigration, Welfare, and much more (feel free to elaborate on any of them.)

IMPORTANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please remember this round is only for stating your side and reasons for your argument. The next round will be left for rebuttals. This way we can both get a clear view on where both of us stand. Thank You!
imabench

Con

Well I guess this round is just to introduce liberal beliefs.

1) Abortion

Liberals believe in the woman's right to chose depending on how advanced the pregnancy is and conservatives routinely denounce this stance as "pro-child murder". Science has constantly tried to define when a fetus is a fetus, a child, a human, a glob of cells, etc. What makes abortion unique as an issue that is debated over by liberals and conservatives is that both sides actually rely quite a bit on science to determine if abortion is murder or not. The only issue is that science has given many widespread definitions of what a human is, what a child is, what murder is, etc and an agreeable definition has not been reached.

Now conservatives use christian morals "thou shalt not kill" to jump to the pro-life side of this matter, and theres nothing wrong with that. The issue though is that conservatives themselves dont agree on how far life must be protected. Almost all conservatives believe that late term abortion should be banned (some liberals such as myself do to) because at that point the fetus is quite human and is alive. But then as you turn the clock backwards in time the question of whether or not the fetus is human is called more and more into question. Liberals then become pro-choice in early abortion whereas most conservatives do not and some take it to the extreme. Some conservatives are so pro life that they are against masturbation and believe that pregnancy starts two weeks before the woman isnt even pregnant.

Im not making that up, a new law in Arizona declares women pregnant two weeks before they actually become pregnant.

http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.com...
(The website is clearly biased but Im using it just to show that there is such a law that exists)

Liberals are not for the murder of children, many of them are even against late term abortion. Liberals are simply pro choice when it is unclear whether or not the fetus cannot be 100% defined as human, a child, etc. Some conservatives on the other hand take it rather extremely to the point where its nonsensical.

2) Gay Marriage

"America has been telling children that homosexuality is wrong since day one. Do you not think that if we start changing what we stand for that it is just going to start causing confusion and rebelion?"

Really? You really think Gay Marriage will cause a rebellion in the US? Really? Well this is for opening arguments only so Ill tear that to shreds later.

Liberals approve of Gay Marriage because liberals dont rely on archaic definitions and irrational fears of people who are different from anybody else. Conservatives were against women's right to vote because it wasnt traditional, conservatives were against interracial marriage because they too saw it as a sin or unholy, conservatives were against letting blacks vote, conservatives were against lowering the age to vote, against anything that didnt fit into archaic definitions of society. If homosexuals do want to get married just to be accepted then what is so wrong about that?

What is so wrong about doing something to help people feel like they are a part of society?

3) Taxes and Government

Liberals and conservatives both strive towards having a sound budget, conservatives want to do this by cutting costs to social programs that make government and the US function and do not ever question defense, liberals want to raise taxes strategically and cut spending strategically as well by only trying to curtail wasteful spending rather then began axing necessary and vital programs that millions of people depend on. Liberals also prefer a progressive tax over a flat tax because a flat tax puts a larger tax burden on middle and lower class Americans while upper class Americans, who are making record wealth and profits, have much more to give.

So you can go ahead and give your little "American Dream" Pep talk but conservatives value success and prosperity of the upper class more then the middle and lower class since they lobby for the wealthy much more than they do for anyone else. Liberals just want everyone to pay a reasonable amount to pay for the services that the people wanted in the first place and not cut funding so much that the programs that millions of people depend on dont become underfunded.
Debate Round No. 2
SANTORUM2012

Pro

Rebuttals

I think life begins at whatever stage the doctor is able to tell a woman that she is pregnant. Whether it is "just a glob of cells" or if it is in the form of a human being has no standing. I think we all agree that killing somebody who is innocent is wrong right? Well, I honestly don't think abortionist understand what that means. The definition of the word "kill" is to deprive of life in any manner; cause the death of; slay. I want to point out the to deprive of life in ANY manner. Even if it is "just a glob of cells" will it not be an "actual human" in the future. Therefore, stopping it would be depriving it of life, therefore being called killing.

"I'm not making that up, a new law in Arizona declares women pregnant two weeks before they actually become pregnant."

If she is not pregnant, then there would be no need for abortion in the first place, right?

"Conservatives were against women's right to vote because it wasn't traditional, conservatives were against interracial marriage because they too saw it as a sin or unholy, conservatives were against letting blacks vote, conservatives were against lowering the age to vote, against anything that didn't fit into archaic definitions of society."

You stated that conservatives we against women's right to vote when in reality the bill was not passed because many believed, if women got the right to vote they would vote conservative.

Here is something I found of a website...

By 1908 most MPs openly supported the right for women to vote. The British Prime Minister agreed that the government would send a Bill to Parliament asking for the female vote. In 1910 and 1911 a Bill was passed. But the Bills did not become law.

The campaign for women’s votes got bogged down in politics. Some MPs did not want ANY women to get the vote. Some MPs were against the Bill because they did not give enough women the vote. Many were against the Bills because they thought the 1 million rich women who would get the vote would vote Conservative. After 1910, the government faced other problems and many MPs thought there were more important things to worry about.

http://www.gcsehistory.org.uk...

I couldn't find hardly anything linking conservatives and interracial marriage together so I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt. If Conservatives were the ones who opposed this then they were wrong. But, Gay Marriage and interracial marriage are nothing alike. Yes, the are both dealing with marriage but you CANNOT help the color of your skin while you CAN help who you have sex with and who you marry. Also please don't forget it was the democrats who didn't want African Americans equal rights.

"liberals want to raise taxes strategically and cut spending strategically as well by only trying to curtail wasteful spending rather then began axing necessary and vital programs that millions of people depend on."

Liberals are the ones spending everyone Else's money. You are right Conservatives do want to cut Social Programs, but only so the only people who are using them are the people who really need them. The problem is too many people have become dependent on the government. What Conservatives want to do is get more people employed, that way they are working instead of living off handouts. Also, the flat tax is fair. Even if the rich has more money to give, they earned it....
imabench

Con

Ok let the sh*t fest begin >:)

"I think life begins at whatever stage the doctor is able to tell a woman that she is pregnant"

So a sperm isnt life and neither is an egg when they are by themself, but they suddenly do become life the second they meet? Life begins waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay before the sperm and the egg meets so basing a stance off of a faulty definition of what is life and isnt life is two things

1) Ill advised since abortion should be centered around whether or not the child is human yet, not just alive
2) A conservative trademark where they base their stances on faulty logic

If the Sperm and the Egg is considered a live then a woman going through her period could count as killing life and so could masturbation, in fact by this logic blow jobs could be considered cannibalism, but that all sounds perfectly normal to conservatives.

"I want to point out the to deprive of life in ANY manner. Even if it is "just a glob of cells" will it not be an "actual human" in the future. Therefore, stopping it would be depriving it of life, therefore being called killing. "

So then you AGREE that menstruation, masturbation, and blow jobs are all considered murder.

The logic of conservatives.

"If she is not pregnant, then there would be no need for abortion in the first place, right?"

The conservative Pro here makes another classic move that conservatives do, ignore basic logic. If a conservative declares a woman pregnant two weeks before she is actually pregnant, does that sound like the right political view of what pregnancy isand should be defined as? In response to this the conservative focuses only on the fact that "hey, if shes not pregnant, she cant get an abortion" and fails to realize how f*cked up the entire situation is.

"You stated that conservatives we against women's right to vote when in reality the bill was not passed because many believed, if women got the right to vote they would vote conservative. Here is something I found of a website...By 1908 most MPs openly supported the right for women to vote. The British Prime Minister agreed that the government would send a Bill to Parliament asking for the female vote"

Ah, another classic move by conservatives, their inability to look up basic facts. Apparently the Pro thinks I am talking about voting rights for women IN ENGLAND, when Im referring to the USA......

"Nationwide, male voters made the decision and the opposition was led by Southern white men (afraid that black women would vote), ethnic politicians (especially Catholics whose women were not allowed a political voice) and the liquor forces (who realized correctly that most women would vote dry."

Southern men (conservatives), very religious politicians (conservatives) and saloon owners (?) were against women's voting rights.
http://en.wikipedia.org...'s_suffrage_in_the_United_States#Opposition

"Gay Marriage and interracial marriage are nothing alike. Yes, the are both dealing with marriage..."

Another classical trademark of conservatives are contradicting themselves almost within the same sentence

"you CANNOT help the color of your skin while you CAN help who you have sex with and who you marry"

Apparently being gay is a choice in the minds of conservatives since in their minds gay people can just suddenly decide not to be gay. If you are straight could you choose which sex to have sex with? If you were a dude could you help yourself have sex with men? Of course not, you are straight and are attracted to the opposite sex, homosexuals are agy and like their own sex. We are exactly the same and being gay isnt a choice.

"Also please don't forget it was the democrats who didn't want African Americans equal rights."

Time for a history lesson...... The democrats who controlled the south around the 1800's were indeed democrats, but they were conservative democrats, not liberals

"When Richard Nixon courted voters with his Southern Strategy, many Democrats became Republicans and the South became fertile ground for the GOP, which conversely was becoming more conservative as the Democrats were becoming more liberal."
http://en.wikipedia.org...

"The passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which was widely opposed by white Southerners, was the event that finally moved the majority of Southerners to the Republican Party on a national level."
http://en.wikipedia.org...

So conservatives controlled the southern US during the Civil Rights movement, conservatives were the ones against equal rights for blacks. And the white southerners who were against equal rights became republican since the Republicans were growing more conservative while Democrats grew more liberal.

And now we go on to government spending

"You are right Conservatives do want to cut Social Programs"

Ill put that on the scoreboard.

"only so the only people who are using them are the people who really need them. The problem is too many people have become dependent on the government. What Conservatives want to do is get more people employed, that way they are working instead of living off handouts"

So basically conservatives want to rely on the private sector and the free market to handle everyone who is poor and living in poverty, whereas liberals create programs to help these people who cannot help themselves..... But the second the market goes bad then a lot more people are unable to support themselves and do need help. Conservatives then go with the "'Get a job" line when there arent any jobs to go around while liberals admit times are tough and are willing to help people out.

Conservatives are so quick to cut social programs in times of hardship and when times are booming, even though they claim to be based off of religious morals.

Heres a riddle for you, Jesus fed the poor, he helped them, he clothed them, and he healed them, free of charge. He didnt rely on the free market to help people and tell them to go get a job. If conservatives are so religious orientated why dont they follow the teachings of Jesus like they say they do



Allow me to translate the quote to those who dont get it. Conservatives say they do follow the lord, but when the time comes to help the poor and help the needy without question they are the a**holes who dont want to do it while liberals are actually the ones who are willing to help.

" Also, the flat tax is fair. Even if the rich has more money to give, they earned it...."

See what happened to that "give the middle class the American dream" bullsh*t they tried to sell. Conservatives preach to want to protect everyone but they love the rich more than anybody else and do two things. One is make a flat tax that puts a tax burden more on the middle class than the rich, and the second is make a flat tax that is ridiculously too low to help the government meet its budget. And the sad part is that conservatives would much rather advocate for the well being of the rich over the middle class and cutting aid to poor people then agreeing on reasonable taxes for those who have more to give....

I will now post a sh*t load of pictures about why Conservatives < Liberals

























































Debate Round No. 3
SANTORUM2012

Pro


If the Sperm and the Egg is considered a live then a woman going through her period could count as killing life and so could masturbation, in fact by this logic blow jobs could be considered cannibalism, but that all sounds perfectly normal to conservatives.

An egg has NO chance of being a human without being fertilized by sperm. Sperm has no chance of being a human without fertilizing an egg. Therefore, the above things you mentioned are not depriving of life. Once two people have unprotected sex there is a chance that life is forming considering no one can tell just when life begins, there is always a chance you are killing a precious, innocent, young child.

The conservative Pro here makes another classic move that conservatives do, ignore basic logic. If a conservative declares a woman pregnant two weeks before she is actually pregnant, does that sound like the right political view of what pregnancy is and should be defined as? In response to this the conservative focuses only on the fact that "hey, if she's not pregnant, she cant get an abortion" and fails to realize how f*cked up the entire situation is.

Well, my opponent points out this situation when talking about abortion so I was just wondering how Arizona saying a woman is pregnant two weeks before she is even pregnant can relate to the subject. Me saying if she was not pregnant then there would be no need for an abortion is simply showing that this argument has no standing when debating abortion.

"Gay Marriage and interracial marriage are nothing alike. Yes, the are both dealing with marriage..."

Another classical trademark of conservatives are contradicting themselves almost within the same sentence

I was just comparing and contrasting. By the way, I think you left of the second part of the sentence.

Closing Arguments

My opponent uses offensive words and pictures to get your vote when all I have done was provided you with facts. Conservatives and Liberals are very different in many ways. This whole debate focused only on 3 issues of Abortion, Gay Marriage, and Taxes. Hopefully, by reading this debate you have drawn your own conclusion if you haven't already about which is a better path to get to a better America.

I enjoyed debating this issue and hopefully I will find myself debating with you again!

VOTE PRO!!!
imabench

Con

"Once two people have unprotected sex there is a chance that life is forming considering no one can tell just when life begins"

And even though you yourself (a conservative) just said that no one knows just when life begins, you proceed on claiming that abortion should be illegal because it kills something that is alive, even though you yourself do not know when life actually begins...... How can an ideology take such a stubborn stance on an issue that they cant even agree on where life begins or even the definition of life? A sperm apparently isnt a live to conservatives, neither is an egg, but suddenly when both come together we are now suddenly dealing with something that is a miracle, precious, and must be protected? You cant just make the jump from "eggs and sperm arent alive" to "eggs and sperm are alive when they meet"....

I would also like to mention that it is mst likely true that conservatives are pro abortion if the fetus turns out to be gay.

"Me saying if she was not pregnant then there would be no need for an abortion is simply showing that this argument has no standing when debating abortion."

It does relate to abortion because conservatives even believe that sperm and eggs are precious to life, meaning that under your idea of no killing life, then sperm and eggs should be protected, making abortion murder, masturbation genocide, and blow jobs cannibalism.

Conservatives cannot uniformly agree on when life should be protected or not, and many of them base stubborn opinions on the issue before they can even appreciate the science behind it. Liberals can agree that late term abortion is killing because by then it is well established that the fetus is human in just about every way. Before such a time though when liberals take a pro-choice stance because science still hasnt given us a definite answer as to what is and isnt really human or alive, and because speculation does NOT get to be prioritized over the woman's rights because women still have rights (even though conservatives wish they didnt)

"My opponent uses offensive words and pictures to get your vote when all I have done was provided you with facts."

You havent given any facts at all, youve given your own opinions that being gay is a choice and ignored 90% of my own arguments.

Dropped arguments:
- Pro drops that conservatives wish to cut social programs that hep people rather than cut other areas like defense or raise taxes
- Pro drops that conservatives are more concerned about the wealthy than the middle class
- Pro drops that conservatives care more about the rights of the unborn than those who are born
- Pro drops that conservatives claim to have religious morals but when the time comes to help those in need or help the poor or feed the hungry, it is always liberals who want to extend a hand while conservatives call that "wasteful spending"
- Pro drops that homosexuality isnt a choice and that people are born with it
- Pro drops that the government is designed to work off of the Constitution, not the Bible
- Pro drops that conservatives have always been against the rights of workers
- Pro drops that conservatives have always been against the rights of minorities
- Pro drops that conservatives are more willing to tax the middle class than the rich despite claiming to be defending the American dram of the middle class
- Pro drops that homosexuality actually exists in nature whereas homophobia exists only in humans, meaning that homosexuality is actually seen in nature and could thus be considered natural
- Pro drops that if gay marriage is meant to make gays feel equal in society that still shouldnt be allowed because it will cause a revolution in the US

========================================================================================================================================================

Liberals support gay marriage.
Liberals support early abortion but not so much late term abortion.
Liberals are for the rights of women, workers, and minorities
Liberals place what is right over what was the policy in the past
Liberals do want to protect the environment
Liberals are against unnecessary wars
Liberals want to make sure that everyone has an equal chance to succeed like white males
Liberals dont want to regulate what happens inside a womans vagina
Liberals dont want to regulate what a man does with his own penis
Liberals dont flinch at the word "vagina" or "penis"
Liberals dont actually believe that Obama is a Kenyan Muslim, unlike some conservatives....
And most of all, Liberals dont base their beliefs out of what they read in the Bible, they base them off of what is right and what needs to be done to make this country better.

Let me end with one last picture that I was saving up for a while

The one on the left is a conservative, the one on the right is probably not.



Please vote off of who had better arguments, not which political ideology you already belong to.
Debate Round No. 4
20 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by imabench 4 years ago
imabench
good to know
Posted by 16kadams 4 years ago
16kadams
I read this debate again. The pictures where so illogical they made me lol
Posted by SANTORUM2012 4 years ago
SANTORUM2012
I appreciate all the votes and honest critisism ive recently just starting and hope you see my progress...thank you!
Posted by imabench 4 years ago
imabench
enjoy the pictures ;D
Posted by Ixaax 4 years ago
Ixaax
And thank you for addressing that in the rebuttals, which I am now reading.
Posted by imabench 4 years ago
imabench
Yeah I covered that....
Posted by Ixaax 4 years ago
Ixaax
"please don't forget it was the democrats who didn't want African Americans equal rights."

Hollup! This was back when Democrats were CONSERVATIVE! Liberals have always supported African American rights and woman rights.
Posted by 1dustpelt 4 years ago
1dustpelt
Most are false
Posted by imabench 4 years ago
imabench
"I will now post a sh*t load of pictures about why Conservatives < Liberals"
Posted by SANTORUM2012 4 years ago
SANTORUM2012
to set the record strait, I didnt know his pictures were his argument
6 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Vote Placed by Ixaax 4 years ago
Ixaax
SANTORUM2012imabenchTied
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Total points awarded:14 
Reasons for voting decision: "If the Sperm and the Egg is considered a live then a woman going through her period could count as killing life and so could masturbation, in fact by this logic blow jobs could be considered cannibalism, but that all sounds perfectly normal to conservatives." Perfect reason for my vote. Awful conduct but witty, logical, arguments that effectively address Pro's weak points. And Dustpelt, you gotta give con grammar regardless of conduct.
Vote Placed by YYW 4 years ago
YYW
SANTORUM2012imabenchTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: What a farce. Santorum: You argued much like Santorum himself. Bench: Memes were clever.
Vote Placed by 1dustpelt 4 years ago
1dustpelt
SANTORUM2012imabenchTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Conduct for Con purposely pissing of conservatives by posting pictures of idiots and posting a bunch of stereotypical insulting crap.
Vote Placed by SarcasticIndeed 4 years ago
SarcasticIndeed
SANTORUM2012imabenchTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Con obviously showed the flaws in Pro's logic and gave very strong arguments that were not refuted.
Vote Placed by Contra 4 years ago
Contra
SANTORUM2012imabenchTied
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Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: Very strong arguments CON. They should be shown to other Americans, especially the third and last pictures.
Vote Placed by miketheman1200 4 years ago
miketheman1200
SANTORUM2012imabenchTied
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Total points awarded:15 
Reasons for voting decision: Im extremley againts both political ideoligies. This made voting hard. pro gets conduct as con did use silly pictures among other things. imabench was able to easily refute all of pros arguments, not to mention pro dropped alot of them. con provided more sources for his argument.