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Thiest_1998
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jkgraves735
Pro (for)
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Contradictions in the Bible

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/24/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 7 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 982 times Debate No: 88717
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (66)
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Thiest_1998

Con

Hi I am a born again Christian who believes the bible is the infallible inerrant and inspired word of the Living God and I challenge any one to tell me any contradictions in the Bible KJV
jkgraves735

Pro

Well, I won't overwhelm, so let me first put out three contradictions. if my opponent can satisfactorily answer them, I will pull out a few more. More than likely, however, we will just debate little pieces of these specific contradictions.

No, I didn't copy and paste these from the internet. These are favorites from my personal study.

As a favorite place to start, Genesis! I would like to show that Genesis 1 and 2 contradict explicitly. I will start with the English KJV translation, but no doubt we will engage in Hebrew exegesis as we go.


Genesis 1-2 is filled with contradictions. In modern historical criticism of the Old Testament, we have identified some points that indicate the Torah is actually a combination of several different text sources. This can clearly be seen in Genesis 1-2. Genesis 1 uses one source while Genesis 2 uses another.

Here's a basic contradiction between Genesis 1-2

1. Does God create plants before man? (Genesis 1) or man before plants? (Genesis 2)

Genesis 1:11,26


"And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed,and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so... And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." So plants on day 3, man on day 6. Man after plants.

And yet

Genesis 2:5-9

"and every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. 6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. 7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. 8 And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. 9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil." In Genesis 2, man is made BEFORE plants


2) Jesus and the feeding of the 5,000

In this text, found in the Synoptic Gospels and John, there seems to be a contradiction.

In John, Jesus and His disciples go up to a mountain and the crowd finds Him at the mountain. Jesus asks His disciples if they can feed the people. Then the Disciples go to Capernaum.

But in Mark, Jesus and His disciples come on shore from a boat to the crowd and His disciples ask about food and give out the food. Then the Disciples go to Bethsaida.

I copied and pasted the important portions of the text below, with underlined portions for contradictions

John 6:3-6,16-17
"
And Jesus went up into a mountain, and there he sat with his disciples. 4 And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was nigh. 5 When Jesus then lifted up his eyes, and saw a great company come unto him, he saith unto Philip, Whence shall we buy bread, that these may eat? 6 And this he said to prove him: for he himself knew what he would do...


16 And when even was now come, his disciples went down unto the sea,17 and entered into a ship, and went over the sea toward Capernaum.


Mark 6, 32-36,45
And they departed into a desert place by ship privately. 33 And the people saw them departing, and many knew him, and ran afoot thither out of all cities, and outwent them, and came together unto him. 34 And Jesus, when he came out, saw much people, and was moved with compassion toward them, because they were as sheep not having a shepherd: and he began to teach them many things. 35 And when the day was now far spent, his disciples came unto him, and said, This is a desert place, and now the time is far passed: 36 send them away, that they may go into the country round about, and into the villages, and buy themselves bread: for they have nothing to eat.

45 And straightway he constrained his disciples to get into the ship, and to go to the other side before unto Bethsaida, while he sent away the people.

3) What did Jesus ride into Jerusalem?

This is a humorous one actually. What did Jesus ride into Jerusalem on? For Mark, it's only a colt. In Matthew, it's an donkey (@ss in KJV) AND a colt. So which one is right? Just the donkey? Or the donkey and baby donkey? And we can't say Mark only mentions one of them... Jesus only asks for a colt in Mark, but He asks for a donkey AND a colt in Matthew!

Here's the text, again underlined for your convenience

Mark 11:1-7
And when they came nigh to Jerusalem, unto Bethphage and Bethany, at the mount of Olives, he sendeth forth two of his disciples, 2 and saith unto them, Go your way into the village over against you: and as soon as ye be entered into it, ye shall find a colt tied, whereon never man sat; loose him, and bring him. 3 And if any man say unto you, Why do ye this? say ye that the Lord hath need of him; and straightway he will send him hither. 4 And they went their way, and found the colt tied by the door without in a place where two ways met; and they loose him. 5 And certain of them that stood there said unto them, What do ye, loosing the colt? 6 And they said unto them even as Jesus had commanded: and they let them go. 7 And they brought the colt to Jesus, and cast their garments on him; and he sat upon him.



Matthew 21:1-7


And when they drew nigh unto Jerusalem, and were come to Bethphage, unto the mount of Olives, then sent Jesus two disciples, 2 saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an @ss tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me. 3 And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them. 4 All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, 5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an @ss, and a colt the foal of an @ss.

6 And the disciples went, and did as Jesus commanded them, 7 and brought the @ss, and the colt, and put on them their clothes, and they set him thereon.



End story, Matthew says colt and donkey, but Mark says only a colt.


Conclusion:

So, my opponent has some questions to answer:

A) What came first, man or plants?

B) Did Jesus find the crowd on shore, or did the crowd find Him at a mountain? Did He ask about food, or His disciples? Did His disciples go to Capernaum, or to Bethsaida?

C) Did Jesus ride into Jerusalem on a donkey and a colt, or just a colt?

I look forward to the fundamentalist, hermeneutical gymnastics to come.

(Note, I had to change it to @ss to bypass the filters)
Debate Round No. 1
Thiest_1998

Con

A. If you continue reading on to Genesis 8 it's talking about God making a Garden aka Garden of Eden and in Genesis 9 it starts talking about the God making every tree that is pleasant to the sight these are the plants that are in the garden so that is not a contradiction.

B. The feeding of the 5,000 was in the mountains then they went down to the shore, Jesus asked about the food if you have a KJV "BIBLE" the words in red is what Jesus said so I don't know why you would think that it is a contradiction.
They went to Capernaum then they went to Bethsaidanot a contradiction and last but not least Jesus ride on a colt into Jerusalem it doesn't say anywhere that he went into Jerusalem on a @ss.

Btw Evolutionists has a weak argument because they're trying to explain something that never happens.

Also micro evolution happens the other 5 are just religious.
jkgraves735

Pro

I don't think my opponent actually read my argument...

A. Genesis 2:5-7 "and every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. 6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. 7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Clearly man is made before plants. Not so in Genesis 1. Plants there are created on the third day, man on the 6th.

B. My opponent did not actually address my questions. Mark clearly says they stepped out of the boat to a crowd, while John is depicted as the crowd coming to Jesus on a mountain. In Mark, the disciples ask about food. In John, it's Jesus.

My opponent's only rebuttal is to claim that the red letters must come from Jesus Himself... based on Louis Klopsch's 1901 Red-Letter Bible. Not exactly an excellent argument.

C. "it doesn't say anywhere that he went into Jerusalem on a @ss."

Matthew 21:6-7

" 6 And the disciples went, and did as Jesus commanded them, 7 and brought the @ss, and the colt, and put on them their clothes, and they set him thereon."

^^^right there. It does.
Debate Round No. 2
Thiest_1998

Con

I think you didn't read the passage it says that after God made Adam God made a Garden east towards Eden then it says the tree's that God made in the garden.
Genesis 2:7-9
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

8 And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Again not a contradiction

Again I repeat myself the feeding of the 5,000 happened in the mountains then he probably met a different crowd.

Sorry I missed it, I don't know what Jesus went into Jerusalem on also how is it a contradiction it's just not specifically saying what he went into Jerusalem on.

Ps

If you don't like my reply I don't care take it or leave it.
jkgraves735

Pro

Again, my opponent doesn't seem to see the contradiction so let me lay it out quite plainly. The texts are copied and pasted above so I'm really going to get it down to the bare bones to show the contradiction.

1) Genesis. Plants before man? Or man before plants?

Genesis 1:12-13, 27, 31b

And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the third day.

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them... And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Genesis 2:5a, 7, 9


And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: ... the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul... And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Clearly Genesis 1 has plants, including trees, herbs, and whatever else, on day three before the creation of man. In Genesis 2, man's creation comes first. BEFORE plants. And my opponent's attempt to reconcile it only exasperated the point. Plants were made after man in Genesis 2. Including plants. My opponent's consistently demeaning remarks that I did not read the text are unfounded. I have written papers from the original language on this passage multiple times.

2) Different crowd?

My opponent offers that perhaps Jesus just met a different crowd to feed and that's why there are differences, back-pedaling from his previous position that there was no contradiction. Is that a plausible idea? No. It is not. Here are a couple reasons.


1) The Gospel of John is 90% different in material from the Synoptic (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) Gospels. If there are similarities, it is a big deal and probably the same event.

2) The general chronology is the same. Fairly early in Jesus' ministry. Feeding of the five thousand followed by walking on water. Again, Mark and John are so dissimilar that any chronological similarity is very important.

3) Similarities in the story are present. Yes, there are contradictions, but there are also similarities to let us know this is the same story. Five loves and two fish. Jesus tells the people to sit in groups. The quote that 200 denarii of bread would not be enough. The number of people. Twelve baskets of leftovers... this is the same story.

4) This is geographically in the same place: the mountain-hill country area on the western side of the sea of Galilee.

This is the same story... and it contains contradictions


3) Jesus rides a donkey and a colt? Or just a donkey?

My opponent does not see the contradiction, still. So let me draw it out.


Matthew: Jesus asks for a donkey and a colt, they get a donkey and a colt, they saddle a donkey and a colt, and Jesus rides into Jerusalem on a donkey and a colt.

Matthew 21:7 "And brought the (donkey), and the colt, and put on them their clothes, and they set him thereon.


Mark: Jesus asks just for a colt, they get just a colt, they saddle just a colt, and Jesus rides into Jerusalem on just a colt.

Mark 11:7 "And they brought the colt to Jesus, and cast their garments on him; and he sat upon him."

And I can guarantee you Jesus rode into Jerusalem only once.





I again await my opponent's response. We have two more rounds of this. So far he seems to have admitted a contradiction in the feeding of the 5,000 and decided it was two separate incidents. However, as I have shown, this is not the case.

I got sick of writing @ss and will just make it donkey from here on out.

Debate Round No. 3
Thiest_1998

Con

Sorry about that I misread the verse.

The plants came before Man just like all of his creation a then He "planted" a garden east towards Eden and and then it talks about the tree's that God made to "GROW" every tree that looks good to the sight ect God did not create anything else He just made it to grow so again not a contradiction.

Just a recap God created the plants on day 3 and made it to grow on day 6 after He had created man.

Different crowd
Now for 1 and 2 you're just making assumptions just not stating facts this debate is about facts not opinions, when you're stating a claim eg when you said both events happening at the western side of the sea of Galilee give scscripture to back it up.

And I think Jesus rode on a Colt based on what it says in Mark and in Matthew Jesus asked them to put their Garments on the Colt and the @ss but in Mark it just says He sat upon the Colt so again not a contradiction

Mr liar I "NEVER admitted to there being a contradiction in the Bible I only said that it was two separate incidents when Jesus met the crowd.

Also I don't seem to see a contradiction because there isn't any.

God bless you I love you all with the love of God and have a good day :)
jkgraves735

Pro

Once again, I will be rebutting my opponent's claims to unionizing the Bible

I struggled to find my opponent's point in the last rebuttal due to a lack of punctuation, but I did catch a few things that have continued to be repeated despite repeated statements on why it is wrong.






"The plants came before Man"

Again, let me quote straight from Scripture on why this is wrong from Genesis 2:5-7

And every plant of the field before it was in the earth and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Very clearly, there were no plants in the earth at all before man

My opponent claims the Bible says plants came before man, but the text tells a different story









Now on to the feeding of the 5,000 again


"when you said both events happening at the western side of the sea of Galilee give scscripture to back it up." (sic)

Sure. If you read the passage for yourself you can see that is true.


Mark makes it clear that the disciples went "to the other side before unto Bethsaida" after the feeding(Mark 6:45) And Bethsaida is on the East side of the Sea of Galilee, making the feeding on the west side

John also makes it clear in 6:22-25 that they went from an area near Tiberius to Capernaum on the "other side of the sea." And where is Tiberius? The west side!


I'd also like to address the "Mr. Liar" insult. My point was that you recognize that these stories are not reconcilable and so resorted to a different tactic of saying it was two separate incidents.








And back to the entry into Jerusalem, what did Jesus ride?

"And I think Jesus rode on a Colt based on what it says in Mark and in Matthew Jesus asked them to put their Garments on the Colt and the @ss but in Mark it just says He sat upon the Colt so again not a contradiction"

I'm confused as to why my opponent does not see the contradiction. He stated it. In Matthew, Jesus asks for a colt and a donkey, the disciples find a colt and a donkey, Jesus saddles a colt and a donkey, and He rides a colt and a donkey.


In Mark,Jesus only asks for a colt, the disciples only find a colt, they only saddle a colt, and Jesus only rides a colt.

Ignoring the text and calling me "Mr. Liar" is not fixing a contradiction.



Debate Round No. 4
Thiest_1998

Con

Firstly I would like to point out what my opponent said about him not being able to understand my point due to the lack of punctuation, I don't know about you but to me that doesn't make any sense.

Mate you look at the text properly.
Genesis 2:5 it says
And every plant of the field before it was in the earth and every herb of the field before it grew

Then it says there was not a man to till the ground.

I think the Bible cannot be any more obvious or you're just delusional since you keep coming back to this text.

I called you a liar because you claimed that I said that there are contradictions in the Bible I never have and never will.

Feeding of the 5,000 again they were two separate incidents.

Jesus rode on a Colt into Jerusalem again read what I said Mr liar.

You twist my words alot that's why I call you a liar.

I'll pray for you my friend.
jkgraves735

Pro

Let's finish this up and get to the voting. This has been quite an interesting debate if nothing else.

First, to my opponent, I meant not the punctuation remark as an insult. I simply struggled to read and understand what you were saying in some of your points because of a lack of proper grammar and punctuation.

And now, back to our regularly scheduled programming.

Genesis 1 and 2... once again

My opponent seems fond of reading some of the passage and not the rest. So let me clear this up. Yes, Genesis 2 says there was no man to till the ground... and that is why there were no plants. What my opponent neglects to see is that there was no point between there not being any plants and creation of man where God creates plants.

Not only that, the text continually uses, in the Hebrew, vav consecutives and vav narrative preterites to continue the story. This means that there was no break in thought between no plants and the creation of man. It is all one continuous story. God made plants before man in Genesis 1. God made plants after man in Genesis 2. If you want to look at the vav consecutives, I left a link at the bottom of this debate.


Feeding of the 5,000... again

My opponent has stated, with no evidence, that the accounts of the feeding of the 5,000 are different incidents. However, he provided no textual evidence to back that up. I provided ample evidence in previous rounds for why it was the same event described in contradictory ways.

And yes, my opponent admitted that these accounts contradict. This is why he changed his strategy from reconciling the stories to saying they are different stories altogether. This is not saying my opponent admits the Bible contains contradictions. I had hoped he would acknowledge the nuance, but alas, he resorted to name calling.

Jesus riding into Jerusalem... again

My opponent provided no rebuttal. He has simply stated his assertion without evidence. In previous rounds, I have laid out clearly why this text contradicts. I need not bore the reader here.

Also, if we're keeping track, we have one count of calling me delusional and multiple times calling me childish things like "mr liar." And that doesn't even count the comment section. I would encourage my opponent to read James 3 and consider whether its imperatives align with his speak.


I hope this debate was interesting and no doubt entertaining for the reader.

Vote as you see best.


http://biblehub.com...
Debate Round No. 5
66 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by jkgraves735 7 months ago
jkgraves735
He's referred to me that way multiple times. I'm almost humorous
Posted by jglass841 7 months ago
jglass841
Yes, you did. Really, are you a child? "Mr. Liar?" Honestly, you sink to that level?
Posted by jkgraves735 7 months ago
jkgraves735
@theist

Round 2. Last two paragraphs.

I'd suggest you read what you wrote before insulting people for pointing out what you said.
Posted by Thiest_1998 7 months ago
Thiest_1998
jglass841

I never said anything about evolution Mr liar wow you atheist love to lie.
Posted by Thiest_1998 7 months ago
Thiest_1998
DavidMancke
What's your point what am I supposed to be looking at if there is a plank in front of my eye.

When you said it not written that the Lord is not limited to save by many or by few.

What do you mean????
Posted by DavidMancke 8 months ago
DavidMancke
"In great contests, both parties claim to act in accordance with the will of God. Both may be, but one must be; wrong. God cannot both be for and against the same thing, at the same time."

-Abe Lincoln

It is both concerning and amusing to read through some of the mental gymnastics that folks with jump through to rationalize a particular, preferred understanding of religious text(s). Yet none of these athletes seems to even consider that they may too be incorrect about a whole host of things.

@Thiest_1998 and FollowerofChrist1955... Is it not written that the Lord is not limited to save by many or by few..? Yet you browbeat you best rationalization of scripture as doctrinal truth with heavenly unanimity. Perhaps the two of you could remove the plank from your own eye!
Posted by jkgraves735 8 months ago
jkgraves735
Came up in the comment section, I think.
Posted by jglass841 8 months ago
jglass841
Theist has no structured argument. Also, why did theist bring up evolution? It has nothing to do with the topic.
Posted by Thiest_1998 8 months ago
Thiest_1998
FollowerofChrist1955 I tip my hat to you because of how much you really care for the souls of those who are lost may God bless you I don't like making promises but I shall surly keep you in my prayers, I pray that God blesses you abundantly.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 8 months ago
FollowerofChrist1955
Thiest_1998, my apologies for perceived rudeness. If I had time to take people to dinner, or out for a coffee, and befriend them, and gradually introduce Christ to them. .... Most people go that route, unfortunately that can take years. They Don't HAVE years. And Christ is not a try it on and see how it fits kind of savior. He IS the ONLY one who can save these people, Christ IS King of Kings, Lord of Lords, whether they believe it or not. They are gonna go to Hell, whether they know it or not.

Surely you've noticed the signs of the times? Atheist have it all wrong, but God loves them too. Sometimes the most direct route, is preferable. I would point you to the Apostle's actions. They did not mince words, They were, no respecter of persons. They were frequently arrested and thrown in JAIL, do you think this occurred because they sought people's approval?

John the Baptist was imprisoned because he Called out Herod and his brothers wifes relationship. Jesus was in mortal danger literally on a daily basis for telling everyone the pharisees were not of God
(Nicodemus excluded of course). I of course am in no way in the same league as those men, but These people deserve and I believe WANT the truth. Some are closed minded, some may never BE saved, but we HAVE an obligation to try. I leave you with this imperative from the word of God...... Read it, Know it, DO IT!

Ezekiel 3:18 When I say to a wicked person, "You will surely die," and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade them from their evil ways in order to save their life, that wicked person will die for their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. 19 But if you do warn the wicked person and they do not turn from their wickedness or from their evil ways, they will die for their sin; but you will have saved yourself.

Unfortunately you cannot TELL a person they are self seeking God hating sinners and are gonna go too Hell if they don't change ...... nicely. think about it, please!
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