The Instigator
Vaughn
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
gizmo1650
Pro (for)
Winning
4 Points

Contradictions in the bible

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Vote Here
Con Tied Pro
Who did you agree with before the debate?
Who did you agree with after the debate?
Who had better conduct?
Who had better spelling and grammar?
Who made more convincing arguments?
Who used the most reliable sources?
Reasons for your voting decision
1,000 Characters Remaining
The voting period for this debate does not end.
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/6/2010 Category: Religion
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 946 times Debate No: 13928
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (5)
Votes (1)

 

Vaughn

Con

In the bible people say there are contradictions. One in particular is genesis chapter 1. They say the order of the creation is contradictory in itself. In Genesis 1 and 2. The "contradictions" are just a miss communication of words. Some words that we use were not used when the books were written. Like as in our word sky they called the sky the heavens (Genesis 1:7-8). It also depends on the version of the bible that you use. The King James Version was the very first version to be translated into Old English. The newer versions have been "improved and updated so that you may better understand the word." The newer versions have changed the meanings of the verses. In the KJV the old English language shared common meanings with the Hebrew language. All the older languages were similar to allow communications between the peoples. When people claim that the meanings have changed they are spouting false truths.
gizmo1650

Pro

I think that their are many contradiction beyond genesis, however since you brought it up i will focus on that. Because your counter arguement (against arguements i have not yet made) is that the bible is mis-translated, i will focus on the hebrew text.

in chapter one, the bible claims that plant life began on the third day.
וַתּוֹצֵא הָאָרֶץ דֶּשֶׁא עֵשֶׂב מַזְרִיעַ זֶרַע, לְמִינֵהוּ, וְעֵץ עֹשֶׂה-פְּרִי אֲשֶׁר זַרְעוֹ-בוֹ, לְמִינֵהוּ; וַיַּרְא אֱלֹהִים, כִּי-טוֹב
(Chapter 1, verse 12)

now this is where translation comes in. I will try to provide my own translation so the voters can understand what we are talking about. Before i begin, there are a few basics of Hebrew i want to go over first:
1) it is read from right to left
2) most (maybe all) words come from a three letter root
3) the dots and lines in, above and below letters are vowels, their meaning is usually grammatic
4) verbs come before nouns

word 1: וַתּוֹצֵא the first letter ו is a prefix, which translates directly into 'and'. The third letter is again ו, this time it is because of conjugation, when it appears hear it the verb is in the present tense. This leaves us with the root תצא which means roughly 'go out'

word 2: הָאָרֶץ the first letter הָ is another prefix meaning the. the rest of the word is a noun meaning earth, or land.

word 3: דֶּשֶׁא grass
word 4: עֵשֶׂב herb
word 5: מַזְרִיעַ seed

so where does this put us in our translation, And goes out the earth grass herb seed...
remember, in hebrew verbs come before nouns, so this becomes
And the earths goes out grass herb seed...
Not a perfect translation, but it sounds like the earth is producing these herb, grass, and seed.
These were also clearly created by this point in creation.

I don't think i need to go through the rest of the sentence, if my opponent wishes to bring something up from it he may do so.

So in sentence 12 plant life was created, or at least already existed.
Sentence 13 tells us when this happened
וַיְהִי-עֶרֶב וַיְהִי-בֹקֶר, יוֹם שְׁלִישִׁי
(Chapter 1, verses 13)

word 1: וַיְהִי again the first letter is a prefix meaning and. יְהִי is roughly 'was' or 'had' as in " the boy יְהִי the book' would mean the boy had the book. and "יְהִי rain" would mean there was rain.

word 2: עֶרֶב evening, night
word 3: וַיְהִי and there was
word 4: בֹקֶר morning
word 5: יוֹם day
word 6: שְׁלִישִׁי three

which gives us "and there was evening and there was morning day three"
This is sentence 13, directly following the previous one i translated. So it is clear that plant life was created on day 3.

Jumping forward to sentence 27, we see the creation of man
"... וַיִּבְרָא אֱלֹהִים אֶת-הָאָדָנ"

word 1: וַיִּבְרָא and created
word 2: אֱלֹהִים praised be he (often used as god)
word 3: אֶת purely a grammetical word, used before direct objects
word 4:הָאָדָנ the man

which gives us and created god the man.
again in english we put nouns before the verb, so
And god created the man.
Relatively clear, this is where god created man.

this is written after sentence 23
" וַיְהִי-עֶרֶב וַיְהִי-בֹקֶר, יוֹם חֲמִישִׁי."
this is the same as sentence 13 except שְׁלִישִׁי (three) was replaced with חֲמִישִׁי (five), so it is "and there was evening, and there was morning, day 5"
So man was created after day 5, after plants which were created on day three.

These times are also not very prone to mistranslation. the days are kept with the very simple sentence "and there was evening ..." and the appearance of plants and men each fall clearly between two of these dividers, providing a clear chronological order.

Now, onto chapter 2.
sentence 5 " ...וְכֹל שִׂיחַ הַשָּׂדֶה, טֶרֶם יִהְיֶה בָאָרֶץ"
word 1: וְכֹל and all
word 2: שִׂיחַ bush
word 3: הַשָּׂדֶה the field
word 4: טֶרֶם not yet
word 5: יִהְיֶה plural form of יְהִי, meaning to be in past tense, referring specifically to an object being in existence
word 6: בָאָרֶץ prefix בָ means in the, is אָרֶץ land or earth.

And all bush the field not yet was in earth.
sentence 7"...וַיִּיצֶר יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים אֶת-הָאָדָם"
word 1: וַיִּיצֶר and produce/create past tense
word 2: אֱלֹהִים praised be he (often used as god)
word 3: אֶת introduce direct object
word 4: הָאָדָם the man
And produced god the man
And god produced the man

sentence 9 "... וַיַּצְמַח יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים, מִן-הָאֲדָמָה, כָּל-עֵץ "
word 1: וַיַּצְמַח and grew
word 2: יהוה another name for god. Vowels are unknown, but this is the origin of Jehovah
word 3: א‘
Debate Round No. 1
Vaughn

Con

I cant debate you because most of your argument came up as numbers on my screen
gizmo1650

Pro

I would like to apologize for my previous argument. Those of you who are using google's web browser Chrome, you should be able to fix my previus post by copying and pasting the following into your URL bar.:
javascript:void(document.getElementsByClassName('left')[0].childNodes[4].innerHTML=document.getElementsByClassName('left')[0].childNodes[4].innerText.replace(/\n/g,'
').replace(/'

'/g,'
').replace(/'

'/g,'
'))

This will not work in either Internet Explorer of Firefox.
Also, because one Hebrew letter took up several letters, the end part was cut off due to the character limit.

To recap in my previus points,
In chapter 1, line 11, Genesis said "And God said: 'let the earth put forth grass, herb yielding seed and fruit-tree bearing fruit after its kind..."
In line eleven it said "and there was evening and there was morning, a third day"
In line 27 it said "And God said 'let us make man in our image'..."
Clearly, man was made after trees, by several days and several lines. The time difference is far to large to be a mis translation, and knowing Hebrew, i don't see how it can be read as man coming first.

But genesis provides another account of creation in chapter 2
Chapter 2, line 5 "No shrub of the field was yet in earth ..."
Chapter 2, line 7 "Then The lord God formed man of the dust of the ground..."
Chapter 2, line 8 "And the lord God planted a garden eastward in eden..."

so now it is no plant life
then man
then plantlife
Debate Round No. 2
Vaughn

Con

Vaughn forfeited this round.
gizmo1650

Pro

My properly formatted argument remains unrefuted.
Debate Round No. 3
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by Vaughn 6 years ago
Vaughn
It didnt work
Posted by gizmo1650 6 years ago
gizmo1650
The end of my argument got caught off. basically in chapter 2 man is created before plant.
Posted by gizmo1650 6 years ago
gizmo1650
I fixed the spacing: copy the following into your URL bar:
javascript:void(document.getElementsByClassName('left')[0].childNodes[4].innerHTML=document.getElementsByClassName('left')[0].childNodes[4].innerText.replace(/\n/g,'<br>').replace(/'<br><br>'/g,'<br>').replace(/'<br><br>'/g,'<br>'))
Posted by gizmo1650 6 years ago
gizmo1650
That took way longer than it should have. copy and paste the following code into your URL bar:
javascript:void(document.getElementsByClassName('left')[0].childNodes[4].innerHTML=document.getElementsByClassName('left')[0].childNodes[4].innerText.replace(/\n/g,'<br>').replace(/'<br><br>'/g,'<br>'))
Posted by gizmo1650 6 years ago
gizmo1650
the weird characters in my post are the servers attempt to parse hebrew. I will post a javascript based solution shortly.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Cliff.Stamp 5 years ago
Cliff.Stamp
Vaughngizmo1650Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:04