The Instigator
Sonofkong
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
m93samman
Con (against)
Winning
18 Points

Convert Me

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/24/2010 Category: Religion
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 899 times Debate No: 13768
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (1)
Votes (4)

 

Sonofkong

Pro

I am asking you to introduce a religion to me and convert me to it. I first state my beleifs.
*I am an agnostic who I might describe as a Deist in the Sense of Thomas Paine
*I am still traditionally Catholic meaning I take mass but do not believe it.
*I follow the tenets of Chritianity and sometimes follow Taoism and Confucianism (Which I don't beleive to be religions but philosophies.)
I ask my opponent to convert me to a new religion (Deism is prohibited.)
I would appreciate variety and I think it cheating to use my native church of Catholicism as it gives me tremendous guilt.
Please try to do this task and I apologize for any lack of response although I will be finding holes in your pleadings.
m93samman

Con

=== Introduction ===

First and foremost, I'd like to thank my opponent for instigating what is sure to be a stimulating debate. Religion is controversial in the modern day, and it is often a taboo that no one wishes to discuss in fear of offending or being offended. For this reason, it is of utmost importance to maintain civility and respect in this debate so as to remain topical and appropriate.

=== Content ===
o Observation
o Preface
o Sources
============

o Observation

Seeing as my opponent is an agnostic (defined for this round as "a person who claims that they cannot have true knowledge about the existence of God (but does not deny that God might exist)"), I will take it granted that we agree that God exists. If an objection is raised, I will go into proving that the God of Islam (Allah) is in fact a reality and undeniably real. For now, I'll provide an introduction to Islam, and we'll proceed to develop the debate from there.

o Preface

Islam, meaning submission [to His will], is a religion that was founded in the 7th century by the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). On top of being a religion, it is a way of life. The worshiper under Islam is known as a Muslim; the holy scripture is known as the Qura'an, which is a book Muslims claim to be the direct word of God. Islam's foundations are 5, and are known as "pillars", or tenets. They are,

1. Shahada

This is the most basic expression of being a Muslim; "shahada" in Arabic means "bearing witness", and the phrase that is known as the "shahada" (translated) is as follows: I bear witness that there is no God but Allah, and I bear witness that Muhammad is the Prophet and messenger of Allah.

2. Prayer

Prayer is a ritual that is observed 5 times a day by the practicing Muslim. During prayer, the Muslim recites verses from the Qura'an and goes through several "motions" that have been established through Hadith. Prayer is a humbling act; of the motions in Islam, one bows his head to the floor, respecting their Lord and Creator. Who is more deserving of praise than the being that brought about all of life?

3. Sa'om Ramada'an

Sa'om, meaning "fasting" in Arabic, is a practice that is observed during the month of Ramada'an, the 9th month of the year by the lunar calendar. It is mandated upon the age of "maturity" or ability; it depends on the physical capability of the Muslim. He will be trained as he grows by his parents, and eventually, will be able to abstain from food and drink from dawn to dusk. When fasting, one is aiming for multiple goals, both personal and spiritual.

---> Personal

By removing food and drink, what is the Muslim doing for himself, beside losing weight? Well, there are many arguments one can make, all of which are valid. These are the points I believe.

1) Through abstaining, one improves his personal strength at resisting temptation; this can be carried over to spiritual benefits as well.
2) Science has proven that fasting is a healthy practice, when practiced "correctly", of course [1]. Anorexia =/= fasting.
3) Without a constant desire to eat or drink, the abundance of time in the day helps one get organized. For a month a year, this will help anyone organize their life.

---> Spiritual
1) Through fasting, you learn to be humble (to yourself) by proving that you will obey ANYTHING your creator demands, even if it is to deny yourself water for a large portion of the day.
2) The hunger and thirst in the background of the day is a constant reminder of God; shahada is commonly made by the Muslim during Ramadaan because they remember God so frequently.
3) The purpose of fasting (materialistically) is to provide food for the poor. The food the we don't eat is supposed to go to those less fortunate than us; at the end of Ramadaan, sheep/lamb/another animal that's yum is usually sacrificed and donated to the poor, seeing as meat is expensive and generally a delicacy. It's one of the practices I esteem most in Islam.

4) Zaka'at

Donation of money to the poor, or zaka'at, is a mandatory practice in Islam. It is not the idea that you empty out your wallet to the homeless man on the street; it is an established percentage (approximately 2.5% minimum) is to be donated to the poor. It frees man of the bondage of money. Once you have the ability to let go, life is a lot easier on the working man; you realize that you work not for the money, but for the sustenance of life that you appreciate, and that God gave you.

5) Hajj

Hajj, or pilgrimage, is a Muslim ritual. It is mandatory on all capable Muslims- the Muslim must visit Mecca and pray at the Ka'aba, among other practices, once in a life time. It is symbolic of unity, tranquility, and humbleness.

I have provided the very basic concepts Islam holds in this first round, just as an introduction. I'll hand the debate over to my opponent from here, and look forward to an interesting exchange of ideas.

o Sources

[1] http://qa.sunnipath.com...
Debate Round No. 1
Sonofkong

Pro

I thank you for responding to this debate and wish to know if you are part of the religion you advocate. You have not really debated but rather introduced which is alright, but I would like to learn more than the tenets as there are many more parts of a religion. This will be a very lengthly debate so two parts will be a given.
Also quite interesting is your choosing of the religion of Islam. If you would notice my profile says conservative that will remind you my kind have used that religion as an insult to our president but it is an interesting choice. Try to see what you can do.
m93samman

Con

=================== NOTICE ===================
DO NOT WATCH THE VIDEO UNTIL MENTIONED IN MY CASE BELOW
============================================

I thank my opponent for his response.

To respond to my opponent's request, yes, I am a Muslim myself. Although President Obama is ridiculed and insulted for *not really* being a Muslim, I am a proud follower of what I know to be the true religion of God, and will defend it to the best of my ability. To proceed forth with the debate, it has been requested of me that I go deeper into the religion of Islam. I will do my best with the 8000 characters I'm provided to prove that Islam is a religion worth converting to.

=== Content ===============
ll o The TRUE Word of God
ll . . . - Claim to the True Religion
ll . . . - Miraculousness
ll . . . . . . > Prophecy
ll . . . . . . > Science
ll
ll o A Perfect Book
ll . . . - Preservation
ll . . . - Discrepancy-free
ll
ll o Sources
========================
o The TRUE Word of God
- Claim to the True Religion

Let's setup a scenario. We'll begin by saying we have 3 individuals; all of these individuals are teachers. You don't know these teachers, but you read of them while walking down a road. The first teacher claimed to be a divine teacher, and wished to show you the way to God. The second teacher built on the teachings of the first, and claimed that his culmination of teachings is the only way to salvation; otherwise, you will suffer eternal damnation. Naturally, the second teacher would be the best bet. But then, you come across a third teacher. This teacher comes to you with irrefutable evidence proving that the first two teachers' source of knowledge was,
1) unreliable,
2) added on to, and
3) mutilated and cut from.
Then, this third teacher provided you with a more sensible understanding of what the first two were preaching, and was, while resolving the problems of the first two, largely independent and sensible. The third teacher represents Islam; the first and second, Judaism and Christianity respectively. The rest of my case will be an attempt to fulfill this analogy.

[Qur'an 3:85] "If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good)."

- Miraculousness

It is known around the world how brilliant the Qura'an is. In a book of only 114 chapters, the Qura'an has in depth writings not only on Islam itself, but also on literature, history, zoology, embryology, botany, medicine, jurisprudence, and on grows the list. For the sake of this debate, I will get into the prophecies and science that I believe make the Qura'an the unmistakable word of God.

> Prophecy

There are many prophecies that will be fulfilled, but I will get into only one for the sake of the debate. In the Qura'an, the story of Pharaoh and his army chasing Moses across the desert is well known, and held in common with the Bible. Moses reaches the Red Sea whereupon God parts the sea for him to cross. Pharaoh and his army chase him, but once Moses gets to land past the sea on the other side, God shuts the sea upon Pharaoh and his army. This is what is held in common; the Qura'an does not stop there, though. It prophecizes that his body will be found naturally preserved for future generations of humans as a lesson. No Muslim knew of this truly until recently; it is commonly known that if a human body is thrown into a body of warm water, everything from the fish to the bacteria will devour the corpse. But God violated natural law to fulfill the prophecy. [1]

"Maurice Bucaille was busy conducting a final report while thinking as to whether the pharaoh's body was recovered from the sea and mummified immediately after he drowned. But one of his company whispered in his ear, saying" There is no need to rush about this issue, since the Muslims say that this pharaoh did drown". " (from the source provided)

If this isn't the word of God, I urge my opponent to provide an alternative explanation to everything the article explains.

> Science

See the YouTube video.

o A Perfect Book
- Preservation [2]

No holy book of any of the great Monotheisms has the same authenticity of the Qura'an. Revealed over roughly 22� years to the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) by portions, Muhammad had his closest followers memorize it with him and it became an oral tradition. Then, after the people who had memorized it became numerous but dispersed, the Caliph Umar announced that it was time to compile the Qura'an. After it was put together, we came up with a collection of 30 books and 114 chapters; that Qura'an is the same Qura'an I have on my shelf, and that my Grandfather has on his shelf over in Syria. Allah himself promised to guard the Qura'an.

[Qur'an 15:9] "We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)."

- Discrepancy-free

[Qur'an 4:82] "Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy."

To this day, hundreds and even thousands of people have taken on the Qura'an's challenge- find a contradiction or a discrepancy. It has yet to be done; I challenge my opponent to do the same thing, and with that, I'll turn the debate over to Pro.

I thank the readers for their time, and wish my opponent luck.

o Sources

[1] http://rupeenews.com...

[2] http://www.islam101.com...
Debate Round No. 2
Sonofkong

Pro

I thank my opponent and apologize for anything that seems insensitive I would like to assure them I would criticize any other religion. I simply want to win my case.
I will do a full look at the scientific claims later but will now talk about whether a religion was made really to enlighten or for ones own benefit. If it a religion is created purely for ones own profit, such as Scientology, it is a corrupt religion and it is very unlikely divine inspiration was involved. Trusting a self interested entity for help would be similar to reading an IBM investing guide.
So therefore religions made by those with no reason or benefit from the knowledge of their belief such as Buddha who gained no power. Mohamed (purposefully misspelled) on the other hand despite his humble origins I am afraid to say gained much power, so much he is in a book of great generals not even mentioning his religion, which is going to be my primary source. From the beginning he promoted his religion similarly to a businessman, at one point trying to cooperate with the Ethiopian government, because with his spread of belief came power and an empire.
We know that this religion has been toyed with for personal effect on two ocassions. The first was during negotiations with the Byzantines and he put them under the Umma or protective place where violence can not occur for religion. Purely to prevent war although this is a supposedly holy act. The second proves what his motive is because it was actually common for his pagan subjects to practice their former religions, only showing political submitance, not to be enlightened. (I tried my hardest not to put the last word in quotes.)
I am not against this religion, but instead do not trust the reliability of every action. Mohamed could have received the word of Allah but I do not believe his former empire was fully committed to it but possibly wrote the Q'uran and made many other important decisions based on the interest of self preservation rather than enlightenment.
Next I will cover the scientific claims you made but first must shuffle through endless amounts of Fundamentalist lies before uncovering a few facts.
m93samman

Con

I thank my opponent for what was an interesting rebuttal to say the least.

To begin,

1) Extend all of my arguments. My opponent did not refute a single claim.
2) Question all of my opponent's arguments. He provided not a single source.

To conclude,

My opponent did nothing but make false, unverified and arbitrary claims against a religion he is clearly misinformed about. There has been no debate here. I hope my opponent will actually make an argument in the next round; we should have a debate by round 3, but apparently we don't have one yet. So, with that, I'll hand it over to Pro.

I hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving break.
Debate Round No. 3
Sonofkong

Pro

I apologize for the lack of a response to your argument but the subject of scientific inaccuracies in the Q'uran is saturated with propaganda against said religion which, based on the inclusion of Turkish and Ummayad in the language filter is almost exclusively to gain converts. I will first respond to the statement "It prophecizes that his body will be found naturally preserved for future generations of humans as a lesson. No Muslim knew of this truly until recently; it is commonly known that if a human body is thrown into a body of warm water, everything from the fish to the bacteria will devour the corpse."
Although a body was found (it is in a Youtube video but my current device does not allow me to imbed the video name is pharaohs body found in red sea.) this website, (http://answers.yahoo.com...) a comment in said video, and the book kingfisher's mummy's says that the body was from pre- dynastic Egypt, not identified with any pharaoh and found in the ground as the pots and dirt surrounding the body prove in the video. Yes bodies can last as long as that due to natural mummification.
The description of the big bang in the video is not only vague (the heaven and the earth joining together) but has been mentioned in several other religions including the Judeo-Christian Tradition and the Ancient Egyptian religion. Also two bodies joining together had absolutely nothing to do with the big bang's theory of expansion from nothingness.
As for the moon reflecting light this theory has been known since Greek times and any idiot would know this because if it gave off full light it wouldn't be in phases. I learned this fact in school but could not find a source but the lack of a name for an inventor of this theory will show how old it is.
You underestimate the ancients understanding as for example Aristotle knew the earth was round due to the curvature of the moon.
I am afraid that god would have had a better word for earth than an ostrich egg as if you google search the word ostrich egg you will find pictures that are similar to chicken eggs and I doubt when he did compare it he didn't mean an exact shape but probably a metaphor but the exact text given to me might help.
Not to mention for the mention made of the earth revolution, did I hear him say the Sun revolves? It does not revolve and the Copernican theory was developed by Philolaus which you can learn more about here.
http://en.wikipedia.org...
As for the expanding earth this creation is also in the Greek religion and was followed by Anatolian pagans who probably were converted with this idea being similar to the Christian adoption of pagan ideas.
The plant sex argument could hold ground as I found no reference of the discovery of that fact I know that monks around the year 1000 bred plants such as peas with no wonder at the fact that plants have sexes and plants do not have individual sexes but both.
Also your video says that there is a barrier between sweet and salty water. I have never encountered "sweet water" and wonder if he means fresh water. Perhaps I shall ponder this one with some sweet water at my local convenience store.
Mountains do not keep the earth from shaking and the earth upon creation with no landmasses but smooth earth at no point shook uncontrollably.
As for everything being created from water this is an ancient philisophical idea of ancient Greece and china, water being considered the base element.
When the man in the video talks about the life of insects I must ask, Why is this significant? These creatures are not unobservable and if the Q'uran made some life altering discovery about their lives he would have logically told us them.
And finally, embryos are not made of a leech like substance.
I am sorry for any offending but I am simply saying your source of science is unable to be trusted. If I am shown actual proof I will be open minded to the faith of Islam.
m93samman

Con

I appreciate your response.

Since organization is clearly deficient, I'll just quote my opponent after providing a tagline and then provide my response. Extensions will be made afterwards.

=== TAGLINE: UNKNOWN ===
//the subject of scientific inaccuracies in the Q'uran is saturated with propaganda against said religion which, based on the inclusion of Turkish and Ummayad in the language filter is almost exclusively to gain converts.\
I'm not sure what this means.

=== TAGLINE: PHARAOH PROPHECY ===
//Although a body was found (it is in a Youtube video but my current device does not allow me to imbed the video name is pharaohs body found in red sea.) this website, (http://answers.yahoo.com......) a comment in said video, and the book kingfisher's mummy's says that the body was from pre- dynastic Egypt, not identified with any pharaoh and found in the ground as the pots and dirt surrounding the body prove in the video. Yes bodies can last as long as that due to natural mummification.\Assuming the first video I provided is the one my opponent was referring to,

1) This is not the body I referred to, or that the Qura'an prophecized. Look at the second video.

=== TAGLINE: BIG BANG THEORY ===
//The description of the big bang in the video is not only vague (the heaven and the earth joining together) but has been mentioned in several other religions including the Judeo-Christian Tradition and the Ancient Egyptian religion. Also two bodies joining together had absolutely nothing to do with the big bang's theory of expansion from nothingness.\
Holy Qura'an [21:30] "Do the unbelievers not realize that the heaven and the earth used to be one solid mass that we exploded into existence? And from water we made all living things. Would they believe?"

=== TAGLINE: REFLECTED MOONLIGHT ===
//As for the moon reflecting light this theory has been known since Greek times and any idiot would know this because if it gave off full light it wouldn't be in phases. I learned this fact in school but could not find a source but the lack of a name for an inventor of this theory will show how old it is.\
My opponent has no source to verify this; moreover, I would argue that it's difficult to claim the moon has reflected light if I don't know what the moon is.

=== TAGLINE: EARTH SHAPE ===
//You underestimate the ancients understanding as for example Aristotle knew the earth was round due to the curvature of the moon.\
1) My opponent has provided no source.
2) Non-sequitur; from the Earth, the moon looks flat.

Here is a source; turns out that, yes, Aristotle believed the Earth was round and based on justifiable observations. http://en.wikipedia.org...

The thing is, Aristotle believed in a God, but Islam had not existed yet. His beliefs do not rule out Islam. Moreover, hard science had not yet proven that the Earth was round; medieval Europe believed it was flat when Columbus was sailing to North America. The Muslims, though, had their scripture a millennium before the Europeans finally figured it out, and before Astronauts finally saw the earth even later.

=== TAG: OSTRICH-EGG SHAPE ===
//I am afraid that god would have had a better word for earth than an ostrich egg as if you google search the word ostrich egg you will find pictures that are similar to chicken eggs and I doubt when he did compare it he didn't mean an exact shape but probably a metaphor but the exact text given to me might help.\
Here's the exact text. Go to verse 30; but remember, this is an English *translation*. It will never be the exact equivalent to Arabic. http://www.submission.org...

=== TAGLINE: REVOLUTION OF THE SUN ===
//Not to mention for the mention made of the earth revolution, did I hear him say the Sun revolves? It does not revolve and the Copernican theory was developed by Philolaus which you can learn more about here.\
The first paragraph of this article is sufficient.
http://www.smh.com.au...

=== TAGLINE: EXPANDING EARTH ===
//As for the expanding earth this creation is also in the Greek religion and was followed by Anatolian pagans who probably were converted with this idea being similar to the Christian adoption of pagan ideas.\
My opponent has provided no source, and this does not rule out Islam. Again, my opponent continues to misunderstand- the Qura'an has this knowledge AND predates a scientific VALIDATION of it's text. This is miraculous indeed.

=== TAGLINE: PLANT SEX ===
//The plant sex argument could hold ground as I found no reference of the discovery of that fact I know that monks around the year 1000 bred plants such as peas with no wonder at the fact that plants have sexes and plants do not have individual sexes but both.\
The year 1000 was, unfortunately, after the conception of Islam. Moreover, this does not refute the argument.

=== TAGLINE: WATER BORDER ===
//Also your video says that there is a barrier between sweet and salty water. I have never encountered "sweet water" and wonder if he means fresh water. Perhaps I shall ponder this one with some sweet water at my local convenience store.\
Yes, sweet water does in fact mean fresh water. Extend this argument, along with the ones I plan to extend at the beginning of the round; moreover, this page on Googlebooks will help explain better. http://books.google.com...

=== TAGLINE: MOUNTAINS ===
//Mountains do not keep the earth from shaking and the earth upon creation with no landmasses but smooth earth at no point shook uncontrollably.\
My opponent misunderstands. http://www.answering-christianity.com...

=== TAGLINE: WATER CREATION ===
//As for everything being created from water this is an ancient philisophical idea of ancient Greece and china, water being considered the base element.\
Again, this argument goes unrefuted. Science did not verify this until after the Qura'an; moreover, my opponent is self-refuting inasmuch as he tells us that Greece and China believed water is a base element. Water is NOT an element; it is a molecule. So, his argument fails on 3 grounds. 1) My argument is unrefuted. 2) The Greeks and Chinese were wrong. 3) Yet again, my opponent has no source.

=== TAGLINE: LIFE OF INSECTS ===
//When the man in the video talks about the life of insects I must ask, Why is this significant? These creatures are not unobservable and if the Q'uran made some life altering discovery about their lives he would have logically told us them.\
Seeing as branches of science deal with insects (e.g. entomology), clearly this is significant enough for us to study.

=== TAGLINE: EMBRYOLOGY ===
//And finally, embryos are not made of a leech like substance.\
This statement is also from Sura 23:14. The Arabic word "mudghah" means "chewed substance or chewed lump." Toward the end of the fourth week, the human embryo looks somewhat like a chewed lump of flesh (Fig. 3). The chewed appearance results from the somites which resemble teeth marks. The somites represent the beginnings or primordia of the vertebrae. http://www.islam101.com...

My opponent concludes by saying that, had he been given actual proof, he would be open minded. I provided the faith; he should be able to do the *research*.

Extend the "Perfect Book" argument, and the ones mentioned above.

Out of characters. Thank you, I urge a con vote.
Debate Round No. 4
Sonofkong

Pro

Sonofkong forfeited this round.
m93samman

Con

My opponent was online in time to see my arguments and respond; he chose not to.

Vote con, thank you.
Debate Round No. 5
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by m93samman 6 years ago
m93samman
I'm disappointed
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by S98-SAMMAN 5 years ago
S98-SAMMAN
Sonofkongm93sammanTied
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adealornodeal
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Vote Placed by m93samman 6 years ago
m93samman
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