The Instigator
rogue
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
m93samman
Pro (for)
Winning
6 Points

Convince me a God has the right to punish and hurt people for their wrongs.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
m93samman
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/18/2010 Category: Religion
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 4,356 times Debate No: 14088
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (45)
Votes (2)

 

rogue

Con

I would like to believe in a God. This would make my life much easier. But, besides my skepticism about the existence of a God, I can't seem to come to terms with the idea that a God would think it was ok to punish and hurt someone for their wrongs. I just cannot worship a being who hurts on purpose. Pro's job will be to convince me. My job will be to refute what Pro says. If I just don't agree and you think Pro's points are more valid vote Pro. If you think I have refuted well enough then vote Con. If Pro convinces me I myself will also vote Pro.
m93samman

Pro

I commend my opponent's bravery in bringing up a touchy and sensitive subject such as this one. I believe that I can bring her to appreciate the idea of God's judgement day through my conception of the idea.

For this round, I'll just hand it back over to Con and allow her to do the initial argumentation, so that we have an equal number of rounds to argue. That being said, good luck, Con, and may the truth be revealed!
Debate Round No. 1
rogue

Con

Alright thank you very much for accepting my challenge. I hope I do not offend you in any way, the point of this debate is not to win or lose but explore ideas, beliefs, and such. I hope this is an enlightening experience for both of us. So, for me what I consider to be morally right and wrong is that the right thing to do is whatever helps people in any way the most. The greatest wrong for me is to hurt people intentionally. In the Bible there are many accounts of God punishing, hurting, and judging people. I cannot see how this is right or fair. If we go with Christian beliefs, God created us this way and we are imperfect because he designed us this way so how can he judge or blame us for our wrongs? Also, I truly feel that I cannot worship anyone or anything that claims to be perfect and then hurts people intentionally mentally, physically, or socially.
m93samman

Pro

Thank you for your response. To be quite honest, I have a very similar view of morality- the only difference is that I believe in an objective morality. Religion and scripture is what guides us to conform to this objective morality as best as we can. With that, I'll get into the substance of my argumentation.

== Observations ==

1. Creation.

Seeing as we agree on a theistic level that we were created by a supernatural being, we can agree that God sets our rules. We live in His house, we go by His ways.

2. Morality.

God created moral law, and for that reason is morally perfect in every way. I will attempt to fit this in to your "subjective", personal morality, but at the end of the day God remains perfect.

== Contentions ==

1. Free-will comes with responsibility.

Imagine if your parents gave you a car so you could get to work, but you used it to go to parties and get drunk. Naturally, they would punish you. The situation is comparable; God gave us the life we have as mortals as a test. We have the free will to act however we want, but if we abuse God's trust, a punishment is something we can naturally expect.

2. Imperfection =/= Damnation

I concede that we are imperfect; this does not mean we will burn in hell. God is merciful, and I would hope my opponent agrees. I'll elaborate from the Islamic perspective.

It is said that God is so generous and merciful that every good deed you perform is counted 10 times; every bad deed is only written down once. So to be "punished", you would have to literally be bad 10 times as much as you are good throughout the year. Not only that; in the holy month of Ramadaan, God multiplies your good deeds many times over. This is just a sliver of God's grace and mercy, and I'm sure the Christian perspective at least shares some of these beliefs.

Nonetheless; I am arguing for the monotheistic God, not a single religion.

== Refutation ==

My opponent's only arguments refer to the afterlife. I would argue that,

1) On Earth, God gives us innumerable chances to make up for our mistakes, and NEVER punishes us. That's mercy.

2) God's decision to punish/reward us is also very generous (see Contention 2).

3) God is all-knowing, almighty, and wise, and, at the end of the day, would know the best decision(s) to make.

Thanks again, rogue, and good luck.

-m93samman
Debate Round No. 2
rogue

Con

1.Creation
(I actually do not agree that we were created supernaturally I am undecided but that is not the point of this debate) I also do not see how God has set the rules. God has "spoken" to certain people and because we are people and imperfect and selfish, it is hard for me to believe that God really spoke to them and they did not have other motivations.

2. I remain unconvinced of a set code of moral laws that some perfect being created seeing as there are so many that claim to be just that. I also fail to see how they could be absolute since we are free-thinkers and can therefore interpret things on our own, also everyone interprets things differently so what may have started out as a strict moral code could have been changed and has changed very much since humans existed.

C1. If God created us why did he make it so we would make so many mistakes? You say he tests us. Why is he testing us? It seems to me he wouldn't need to test us if he had just created us so that we wouldn't do things we thought we bad.

C2. I like this post. Forgiveness is good and this works for me and the fact that good is counted as more important than bad.

R3. After pointing out those things that don't make sense to me, it is hard to believe that he is all the things you say in this refutation.

All these beliefs were told by other humans which we have admitted are faulty. So many humans claim to be in communication with God, have the right way to worship and believe in God, from an unbiased perspective(meaning you didn't grow up with any of them taught to you to be the right one), how should I know which is right?

Also, for me to start believing, the whole idea of a God needs to fit into the beliefs I am fairly certain about. I don't like the idea of someone creating us imperfectly just to test us.
m93samman

Pro

Thank you for your response, and am enjoying this debate- mostly so because I can see you really do have good intentions. Conceding one of my points gave it away. Aside from that, let's try to make some headway.

1. Creation

That's fair enough. I won't try to shove it down your throat if you don't believe yet; that comes afterwards.

2. Morality

Now don't get me wrong- I'm not conceding the point. But I am granting you credibility, as you did not link this with the first paragraph of round 2. My belief is that there IS an objective morality; God sent down his word through scripture and thousands of prophets, and, as religions, we attempt to conform to objective morality as best as we can. There are relatively subjective morals on earth, yes, but that is due to different human perceptions. Because we derive our morality from a sense of greater good, though, I would argue that morality definitely exists on an objective level; it is simply too complicated for us to logically deduce.

C1. To answer my opponent's questions.

1) We weren't created SO that we make mistakes. We simply have the capacity to make mistakes. Coupled with God's mercy, I'd say this is a good thing. Moreover, it is an Islamic belief that when we sin, God uses this pain to teach us. Ultimately, our mistakes are a good thing because they prevent mistakes in the future. The old saying goes, "learn from your mistakes"; with God helping us to do so, I would think that mistakes are nothing more than a learning experience, since we are not punished on earth. The likelihood of being punished is actually minute, for the contention which was conceded.

2) He is testing us to create the perfect afterlife. Like you said, we were created with flaws; some with serious flaws. Someone who consciously murders other humans shouldn't be rewarded, don't you agree? But it is only flaws like these that are punished. In Islam, if you are born diseased such that you are impaired in some way, you will automatically go to heaven. This is further evidence of God's mercy.

C2. This argument will extend. In Islam specifically, even smiling in the face of your husband or wife will reward you, thereby reducing your already insignificant chance of "punishment".

R3. Please elaborate on this point. On my side, I will try to do a little better as well by arguing more clearly. First, God never punishes us on earth. There is nothing to show anything of the sort, especially not what we understand as "hell". Second, the likelihood that you will be punished is so low that you can probably bet on the fact that you're going to heaven. God's mercy is abundant and plentiful. Finally, God, by definition, is the most intelligible being that exists. His decisions would be the best decisions.

Thanks again, and I hope everyone's holidays are going well.
Debate Round No. 3
rogue

Con

2. Morality
Like I said, so many people claim to have spoken to God and have sent down scriptures and laws. But, if you think from my point of view (growing up being told to believe what ever I think makes sense) and looking at al these different religions and belief systems that all claim to be right, and having them all have different beliefs that differ from each other and that have changed since the time that they claimed to come from God, it is hard to take any of them seriously or lean towards any of them. Also, I am not convinced we all have a sense of a "greater good". Many people do things we consider terrible because they have different morals. Morals are so different in different cultures and within people that I do not see them as a constant that any supernatural being has placed within us.

1+2) Alright, I like this point. But, if God is all-powerful as you say, could not have he created us so that we would realize why certain things are immoral and have the capability but would never do so because if the way we were created? There are natural impulses in us that we were born with that cause us to do things that are considered immoral by many religions. If the purpose is to create a better afterlife, would not it be better if we all were created so that our natural impulse is not to do these immoral things? And yes, I agree with you on the murder thing and I like the idea of God being merciful. But, if he created us and wants us all to be happy and enlightened and go to heaven, why did he create people like psychopaths and sociopaths who are born with no moral compass whatsoever? If you say that this is to teach us and that murderers do not get rewarded, then why are the people he created to be like that not good enough to reach enlightenment when it is not their fault that they are not inclined to be moral?

R3: You say all these great things about God. But it seems to me he does things that I believe to be wrong in some way, so for me to be able to believe in what you say is true about God, these things have to make sense and not be wrong to me.
m93samman

Pro

Thanks again for your response.

2. Morality

I see where my opponent is coming from. To respond, I'll pose a simple question. What action is there that is moral in one religion and immoral in another?

1+2)

I pose one more question. Had we all been created morally perfect, why would we be here anyways? Our purpose would amount to zilch, in which case I would personally revert to nihilism because I know that I'd be going to heaven anyways.

R3)

It seems as though an agreement on this point depends upon the conclusion of this debate. I'll drop it.

With that, I really haven't much to say. My arguments haven't been refuted; only questioned. It seems as though what I have provided is adequate, but that remains up to the readers and my opponent.

Back to Con.
Debate Round No. 4
rogue

Con

Pro made a good point. This debate is not about refuting, it is more about questioning.

2.Morality: In religions in Africa it is proper to circumcise women. It is also referred to as female genital mutilation. It is n awful, gruesome thing I do not wish to go into in this debate but it is most definitely considered immoral in other religions. It prevents the female from enjoying sex at all. Also, in Hinduism there is that caste system. This lets people abuse people physically and mentally who are considered "untouchable" because they were born into this caste. This lets beatings, lynchings, rape, and other awful things be considered moral as long as they are only done to the "untouchables". This would certainly not pass as moral in other religions.

1+2) Well I think people have to find their own purpose for living. My purpose for living is to enjoy it the most I can without hurting others. You really need the threat of going to hell to be a good person?
m93samman

Pro

As we arrive at the last round, I would like to thank my opponent for her sincerity, and the readers for their time.

Morality: The issue in Africa is cultural. As a matter of fact, the religion associated with female circumcision *IN AFRICA* is unfortunately Islam, although this practice is not an Islamic principle in any way. This applies to the issue in India as well; it was established as a socio-economic hierarchy that depends on your job/income http://en.wikipedia.org...

1+2) If there was no God, there would be no purpose to life, in my opinion. When we die, what happens? We definitely don't last forever on earth. Everything we do is a thing of our own obsoleteness. Hell is not needed for a purpose; God is. To me, at the very least.

Thanks again to everybody.
Debate Round No. 5
45 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by m93samman 6 years ago
m93samman
That's what all of his comments and votes are. Ignore that one user specifically.
Posted by rogue 6 years ago
rogue
Did you even read this debate? Seriously? Your entire comment had no weight.
Posted by wiseovvl 6 years ago
wiseovvl
God needs to maintain justice in this world, because he loves us.
Because he loves us so much, he took the punishment for us, by sending Jesus Christ to the Cross.
Because Jesus Christ paid for the Penalty, we are all saved. This is a miraculous act of Love.
Why would Jesus Christ, the most exalted, magnificent, being of the universe, step down from his throne in heaven, take of his robes, and be born into a filthy evil world such as this? He was born of flesh, in a manger, in a Barn. the Christian God is the most loving, and humble out of all other religions. In the aztec religion, priests were required to sacrifice, their own, in order to have sun. On the other hand, the Christian God sacrificed, himself to save Us. God MUST maintain fairness in this world, but because he loved us so much, he sent his only begotten son to this world. So whoever believes in Jesus Christ, the Son of God will be saved.
Posted by adealornodeal 6 years ago
adealornodeal
I must say, it was difficult to remain objective when judging this debate, but I must say that m93samman's contentions held their ground throughout the entire debate. I think that's about the most I can say for an RFD-- Con conceded to or dropped too much by the end of the debate to possibly win on the flow.
Posted by rogue 6 years ago
rogue
sure if u want
Posted by m93samman 6 years ago
m93samman
I'll debate you on that too. If morality is inconsistent then nihilism would be the best lifestyle.
Posted by rogue 6 years ago
rogue
They are. This is why different cultures have so many conflicting morals. Maybe objective opinions affect how you decide your own morals but YOU alone decide what you believe is right or wrong.
Posted by m93samman 6 years ago
m93samman
Morals are definitely not subjective.
Posted by rogue 6 years ago
rogue
If that is so, he shouldn't have made morals subjective. They always were. He should have made things clear to us instead of him supposedly sending humans who could easily have other agendas. Also, he shouldn't have made it so so many other belief systems came to be. If hey really are going to hell for that, I do not find that fair at all. I also hope that a God would be above concepts like the ones you are using to explain this. You will never know why someone is choosing to be with you. If God does, then I think he is kind of immature for needing us to "choose" him.
Posted by Doulos1202 6 years ago
Doulos1202
When right and wrong grows more and more subjective the window for horrible actions between man grows larger. Other philosophies have come up with topical answers for the morality of man when really a transcendent universal morality would allow us to progress into a consistent positive direction.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by adealornodeal 6 years ago
adealornodeal
roguem93sammanTied
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Vote Placed by Mirza 6 years ago
Mirza
roguem93sammanTied
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