The Instigator
obrya1jr
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
XStrikeX
Pro (for)
Winning
8 Points

Convince me that baseball is more entertaining and a "better" sport than hockey.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/29/2010 Category: Sports
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,380 times Debate No: 12642
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (11)
Votes (2)

 

obrya1jr

Con

I know this seems like a subjective argument but I will try to make it as objective as possible. I am trying to watch baseball and understand it more everyday because I was hired to work for a franchise in the MLB but I cannot find many "very good" reasons to either watch it or consider it a major sport. (By major sport I mean baseball receives a lot of attention on sports center and on sports radio compared to other sports in their regular season.) I feel that hockey does not receive the attention and appreciation it deserves so I would like to hear what a tried and true baseball fan has to say about it.

I feel that there should be a special connection between the athlete of a sport and the spectator of the sport. A bond formed by appreciation. The viewer, who understands the sport, should be able to see the difficulty in the sport and appreciate the athlete for being able to withstand the physical demand of the sport itself. I feel that, as spectators, we should recognize that we are investing time into watching a game, and thus should get some entertainment value from that investment.

I realize "better" is a hard thing to debate because both sports (hockey and baseball) offer different types of skill sets and entertainment values. To better define what sport is better, I feel like some good points to touch upon are: Amount of action (to help determine the amount of entertainment we receive), length of average televised games (to objectively show the time we receive for the investment of watching the game), and the total amount of games per season (to help sum up the total of entertainment available to the spectator). Some other good points would be to being up some of the skills required to play a satisfactory game in that sport, the difficulty hat is placed on the athletes in each sport, and the type of team play as it relates to other sports.

I would like to thank my opponent in advance for accepting this debate. Hopefully I can gain some insight into the fascinating world of baseball to better enjoy and appreciate my job and learn to be a better spectator of the sport.
XStrikeX

Pro

Thanks for creating this very interesting debate!

If you are truly looking to just understand baseball and see why it's interesting, you can simply just pose a simple question to your friends, not necessarily create a debate over it. However, I accepted this debate because I believed it would be fun. Just to let you know, I used to play baseball and I have plenty of knowledge about baseball.

Since it is the duty of the Proposition to affirm the resolution, I will convince you that baseball is not more entertaining and better than hockey, but equally entertaining and similar in skills.

Let me point out the difficulties in baseball, seeing as you do understand hockey difficulties.

1. A pitcher needs to throw 90-100 mph pitches, so that he can strike out a player, or make it extremely difficult to hit a single, double, or triple. This requires a great amount of practice, arm strength, and speed, added in with an accurate throw. Also, realize that a pitcher must throw the ball into a relatively miniature box over the home plate.

2. Pitchers also need to learn various, special types of pitches and memorize them and use them effectively in a real game. They are listed here.
Main:
-Fastball
-Curveball
-Slider
-Changeup
-Knuckler

Special:
- 2 seam fastball
- 4 seam fastball
- cut fastball
- circle changeup
- 3 finger changeup
- 12/6 curve
- backdoor or backup curve
As you can see, utilizing and remembering all these pitches is hard.

3. In "spring training," a period of time before the baseball season in which a player gets into extreme shape and increases his fitness level, players must work hard to develop upper body strength, leg speed, and accurate throws.
This training is not easy at all.

4. Batters put their entire body into their swing using all the muscle they have to hit a home run. The home run is 250 fifty feet away from the batter's box. It takes a great deal of effort, practice, and strength to be able to accomplish such a feat. A good player knows that on a wooden bat, there are 2 trademarks on either side. This is meant to show the weakest part of the bat. If you hit on that part, the ball will not travel very far, and it will break. Players need perfect timing and knowledge of the sweet spot to ensure the perfect hit. Also, you try to hit a 95 mph fastball. Extremely difficult!

Arguments

1. Plenty of action. Hockey does have a lot of brawls between two or more angered players and that's pretty full of action. But if senseless beating is the case, you should probably watch UFC.
Anyways, baseball has plenty of action.
When a man is hurt and falls on the ground by a bad pitch, you wonder, "Is he okay?"
And when a guy hits a decent shot with a nice 'crack!' sound, fans scream and yell for him to sprint and run like the wind.
What if a person decides to slide into 2nd base? Once the dust settles, the umpire stands there and you wait in anticipation for his call. He could be safe or out which triggers an immediate reaction from the crowd.
A line drive could be hit past the infielders but near the outfielders. Will the diving left fielder be able to snag the quickly speeding ball into his hands? This triggers nervousness in a tight game.
And lastly say, one team is down by a run. 2 outs. 2 strikes. The final inning against your team's biggest rival in the playoffs. Can the sweating man hunched over at the plate do it? The pitch is thrown and WHAP, the ball goes soaring into the air and everyone runs, everyone sprints towards home. 1 runner makes it, the game is tied. The ball is being thrown to the catcher, while one player speeds down the baseline towards home plate. The ball is in the catcher's glove and the player slides. Dust flies up in the air and the umpire stands nearby. The catcher has his glove on the player. The player has his foot on the plate. And the umpire has his hands spread out. The player is safe, and the batter is hailed as a hero. This is the action in baseball.

My opponent asked for the length of an average televised baseball game. It is approximately 2 hours and 45 minutes.
The total amount of games per season is at most 2430 games, unless there are rain outs or forfeits. There are 162 games per team out of 30 teams.

Hockey is very similar, in the sense that you must be physically fit, tough, and strong. A great deal of communication is required between team mates. You need to have great hand-eye coordination to keep track of the small puck and as a
goalie, you need quick speed and reaction to be able to block the puck. Nerves are triggered and put a huge amount of pressure as well on players. Team members pass to each other and there is plenty of teamwork. There is entertainment involved in the sport and it can be very fun to watch.

To sum up what my opponent asked for:
1. There is plenty of skill required in baseball to create a good game.
Examples:
Sprinting, pitching, batting, hand-eye coordination, strength, anticipation (to catch a fast line drive), endurance (for a long inning,) deception (for different pitches), and the ability to play under insane amounts of pressure.
2. There is a high level of difficulty. Every human being has nerves and those nerves can be triggered in a tight game or can be summoned up once the other team hits a grand slam home run and happens to tie the game. Pitchers need to still perform their best, even under pressure.
3. Lastly, there is a lot of team play. Players speak to each other on the field, throw to each other, rely on each other to catch pop flies, to make accurate throws, to bat well, and this creates a team-earned win.

If my opponent has any questions regarding baseball, I will answer.
If my opponent has any arguments to prove me wrong, I will refute and convince.

For these reasons, baseball and hockey are equal in entertainment and skill and neither is better.
I look forward to the next round and would once again like to thank my opponent for starting this debate.
Debate Round No. 1
obrya1jr

Con

obrya1jr forfeited this round.
XStrikeX

Pro

Hopefully obrya1jr will be back next round.
Debate Round No. 2
obrya1jr

Con

obrya1jr forfeited this round.
XStrikeX

Pro

Hopefully obrya1jr is still here.
Debate Round No. 3
obrya1jr

Con

Sorry I was unable to complete the last few rounds because I was in the hospital. This is what I started writing for round two but I will restart the debate with PRO in a few days when I am back to normal.---

I would like to rebut a few of your points. I have also played baseball so I know where you are coming from with your arguments, but what I have trouble understanding is what is so challenging about baseball. I will reiterate later.

1. "A pitcher needs to throw 90-100 mph pitches, so that he can strike out a player, or make it extremely difficult to hit a single, double, or triple. This requires a great amount of practice, arm strength, and speed, added in with an accurate throw. Also, realize that a pitcher must throw the ball into a relatively miniature box over the home plate."
-- A baseball is 5 oz and is pitched between 80 and 100 mph and requires strength, speed and accuracy because the baseball needs to fit into a relatively small box over home plate. I agree with all of this, however, I feel that the objective of hockey players is similar, but more difficult. Like in baseball, a hockey puck is 5 and is shot between 80 and 100 mph, which requires strength, speed, and accuracy because the puck needs to fit into a very small space between the pads of the goalie and the posts of the net. I feel that this is more difficult because of the shot to goal ratio compared to the pitch to hit ratio in baseball. In hockey, the typical save percentage of a goalie is about .90 and the typical batting average in baseball is around .250-.350. The goalie save percentage shows the greater difficulty of scoring compared to the success of pitchers making strikes against the average batter. Simply, it is harder to put the puck where it needs to go compared to where the baseball needs to go.

2. "Pitchers also need to learn various, special types of pitches and memorize them and use them effectively in a real game."
--I feel that pitchers have a great deal of the pressure put on them for the outcome of the game. Their performance is what depicts the score. He picks the pitches, throws them, and is the one responsible for making the hitter guess at their pitches. However, I feel it is a weak argument that the learning and memorizing of the pitches makes his job that much more difficult. Knowing how to properly throw the ball is key to being a successful pitcher. Tim Lincecum is my favorite MLB pitcher right now, because he has such a large repertoire or different pitches. Just because Tim has learned the pitches doesn't mean that makes him successful. He knows how to throw and when to throw the pitches and also needs to know the context of the situation (for example, a successful pitcher needs to know what to pitch in a 0-2 count versus a 3-1 count and how the base runners shape his decision.)
With all that being said, pitchers only make up 1/9th of the team on defense. I feel that the responsibility of the fielders is way less than the amount that is placed on the pitcher. I must disagree with some aspects of this point though. I feel that hockey players depend on each other more so than baseball players. Hockey players are constantly changing between playing offense and defense and need to be well versed in both. Typically in baseball, the pitchers are not good hitters, and thus are not great on offense. Hockey players need to have skill sets that make you good at both offense and defense. On a side note, I feel that baseball caters to the needs of the pitchers. In the American League, the pitchers don't even go up to bat. Instead, they have a designated hitter to fill in for him on offense. This is not true in the National League but some collegiate organizations have taken up this rule in some manner. Pinch-hitters, designated batters, and pinch runners are what change the game of baseball in a negative fashion because it allows for specialized substitutes instead of well rounded athletes who shouldn't be excused from the sport. Hockey does have a "free substitution" aspect to it, but I will give a few situations to drive my point home. Suppose Kirk Maltby of the Detroit Red Wings is tripped from behind on a break away, he deserves a penalty shot. Now, if the NHL played by the AL MLB rules, the Wings could pull a "pinch break away" and put Pavel Datsyuk in instead of Kirk Maltby because Datsyuk is much better at penalty shots. I feel that it would take away from the game of hockey to allow the specialized players to fill in whenever they were needed. Unfortunately, there are not that many chances for that to happen because there are considerably less stops in play for hockey compared to baseball.

3. "In "spring training," a period of time before the baseball season in which a player gets into extreme shape and increases his fitness level, players must work hard to develop upper body strength, leg speed, and accurate throws.
This training is not easy at all."
-- Fitness is very important in every sport. Baseball has "spring training" where baseball players train, however, the sport itself is less physically demanding than hockey. Hockey players that
XStrikeX

Pro

I hope you'll feel better soon and I understand your situation.
We have now reached the final round and I will refute my opponent's points, reinstate my main arguments, and tell you why I believe I should win.

Refutations

1. "Like in baseball, a hockey puck is 5 and is shot between 80 and 100 mph, which requires strength, speed, and accuracy because the puck needs to fit into a very small space between the pads of the goalie and the posts of the net. I feel that this is more difficult because of the shot to goal ratio compared to the pitch to hit ratio in baseball."

I agree with your statement that making a hockey goal is difficult. However, as you yourself stated, it is easy for a goalie to save a goal, for he has a 90% chance to. In hockey, there is an easy and a hard end, whereas, in baseball, nothing is easy for the batter, pitcher, and catcher. The pitcher has difficulty by throwing the ball into a 4 ft x 6 ft box and throwing a fast pitch and knowing how to throw numerous pitches. The batter needs to judge the pitch's speed, time the ball, and make good contact so that he can get on base. The catcher also has difficulty because sometimes a pitcher can throw a wild pitch and the catcher needs to get it or else runners will advance on the bases. Hockey difficulty is as difficult as baseball, which is exactly what I am arguing for.

2. "Typically in baseball, the pitchers are not good hitters, and thus are not great on offense. Hockey players need to have skill sets that make you good at both offense and defense."

Not necessarily, because in hockey you have your specific positions i.e. your forward left winger, center, and right winger and your left and right defenseman. You also have your Star and Sniper who are considered the best players. You also have an Enforcer to protect the Star in a fight. Each hockey player has his designated role to win the game. In baseball, you have some people who specialize and focus on a specific role, such as pitcher who wants and needs to excel at his job. Just because you are well-rounded, doesn't necessarily mean you are good. You can be a jack of all trades, but a master of none. Hockey and baseball are similar in this way.

3. "Fitness is very important in every sport. Baseball has "spring training" where baseball players train, however, the sport itself is less physically demanding than hockey. Hockey players that - "

Seeing as your argument was for some reason suddenly cut short, I can't truly refute this. However, I will try to say something about this. Batters need plenty of muscle to hit the ball well and deep and leg muscle to sprint around bases. Catchers need great reaction to catch wild pitches. Infielders need reactions and speed to catch line drives and good throws to get runners out. Outfielders need to run fast to some fly balls and catch them. Pitchers need arm strength and endurance to get through those tough, long games. Hockey players need endurance to move up and down the ice, speed to get to the puck, and strength to hit it hard to score a goal. And they especially need good eyes to find the puck and good coordination. These sports are similar in skill and fitness.

Here are my arguments once again.

1. As the Proposition, I stated the resolution and argued that hockey and baseball are similar in skill.
2. Baseball requires strength as does hockey.
3. Coordination, endurance, and speed are evident in both sports.
4. Both have their own difficulties that players can overcome.

For these reasons, vote Pro.
Debate Round No. 4
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by obrya1jr 6 years ago
obrya1jr
I'm sorry Pro. I just got out of the hospital from an accident I had a week ago. I realize I have forfeited the rounds but I would like to start a new debate soon with you. I just need to iron out a few things here at home before I can concentrate on this. Again, I am sorry I couldn't finish the debate.
Posted by XStrikeX 6 years ago
XStrikeX
You said, "I realize 'better' is a hard thing to debate... To BETTER define sport is BETTER..."
I just felt like pointing that out.
Posted by Loserboi 6 years ago
Loserboi
i dont understand why baseball is so popular either i went to 2 games and they were not that good
Posted by Sobriquet 6 years ago
Sobriquet
Pro, you should forfeit a round so this doesn't end up on the main page when it is finished.

Con, you guys are just going to have to finish the debate. I don't believe you can prematurely end it.
Posted by obrya1jr 6 years ago
obrya1jr
@Panda
Damn, I've been caught! hahah but remember it is the people who vote on the debate, not my decision. I still think this could be a very thought provoking debate though. Two different sport philosophies coming head to head. Should be good good... if only someone would take me up on the debate haha
Posted by I-am-a-panda 6 years ago
I-am-a-panda
All Con has to say is "I'm not convinced" to win.
Posted by twsurber 6 years ago
twsurber
While an interesting discussion topic, it would be difficult to defend either side in a debate. It would be an excellent thread in the sports forum.

For example, I cannot, will not force myself to watch golf, bowling, poker, or NBA. To me they are completely boring. Yet to an enthusiast, they may be glued to the TV, receive twitter updates, chat online, and even have a radio going during one of these events that I would completely ignore.

Whereas, I like the mental battles between pitchers and hitters. What pitch would I call? What pitch will be called. What location of the plate? If I have a runner on 1st, will I steal, if so when? Lots of factors involved! To me it is fun, yet to someone else, it may be totally boring.
Posted by obrya1jr 6 years ago
obrya1jr
Yea, I was comparing baseball to hockey. Sorry if that didn't come across right away haha I was hired because I work in the audio and video booths for television production. I am forced to watch so many games of baseball, I couldn't possibly help but think, why is this our country's past time? I do, however, know quite a bit about baseball, enough to be hired as a full time employee of the franchise. I just never understood the reasons why people think baseball has athletic merit or entertainment value compared to other sports. I personally like hockey so that's why I chose it.
Posted by Itsallovernow 6 years ago
Itsallovernow
Hockey, I believe. Lol! Hockey! And to answer your question, the world is simple. They like to see people hit or miss a ball. The attention span to watch in between pitches or an entire hockey game is more suited for it anyways. For America, at least.
Posted by Loserboi 6 years ago
Loserboi
why would they hire you if you dont know anything about baseball?
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by ethopia619 6 years ago
ethopia619
obrya1jrXStrikeXTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Vote Placed by XStrikeX 6 years ago
XStrikeX
obrya1jrXStrikeXTied
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Total points awarded:04