The Instigator
1Historygenius
Con (against)
Losing
2 Points
The Contender
larztheloser
Pro (for)
Winning
10 Points

Corporations Cause all the Problems

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
larztheloser
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/10/2012 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,931 times Debate No: 20053
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (42)
Votes (2)

 

1Historygenius

Con

OK we are going to try this debate again. I do not think corporations cause all the problems of the world. Round 1 is just an introduction. Good luck to my opponent!

No semantics!
larztheloser

Pro

I thank my opponent for instigating this challenge. It's good to be doing a topic most people consider to be one-sided again. As I have several other challenges on at the same time I may be a bit sluggish in my responses - I apologise deeply for this, but as per my usual rule I promise I won't forfeit.

Let me begin by defining a corporation as being any entity with legally seperate liability from the people who form a part of that corporation.

My opponent wisely limited the debate to "the problems of the world", implying the problems we identify in this debate are global. We're not talking about falling off a bicycle or forgetting your purse at home - not least because not everyone in the world has purses or bicycles. We're talking about the problems that affect the whole planet. My contention is that all of these causes are linked to corporations. Global warming, overpopulation, obesity, famine, enviornmental disasters, wars and so forth affect us all in some way. For instance, Joseph Kony affected not only the people he directly terrorised, but the whole world when he became a Youtube phenomenon and became widely publicised recently. And yes, Joseph Kony was the result of corporations as well.

I recognise, however, that what exactly constitutes a problem is subjective. To avoid using semantics, I will ask my opponent to explain what he believes the problems of the world are, and then I will explain how a (or several) corporation(s) created those problems. If he would limit this number to a number of problems I can reasonably explain in 8000 characters I would be particulary grateful. My intention, in this debate, is to prove all of the things that con thinks are problems are caused by corporations. I recognise that con may not advance every real problem in the world, but who is any one individual to decide what is and is not a problem anyway? I think it only fair that the instigator of the debate makes the final call, and I await that decision.

One final note. During the course of this discussion I will advance several notions that may appear, to put it lightly, conspiratorial. Please note that this doesn't necessarily mean the evidence is lacking - corporations aren't exactly going to be honest about causing all the world's problems, and most probably don't recognise the problems they are causing. This is important to bear in mind - just because something seems conspiratorial doesn't mean it's automatically wrong. I encourage every voter to look at the arguments objectively and openly.

I yield back to my opponent for his opening statement and (hopefully not too long) list of problems for me to explain.
Debate Round No. 1
1Historygenius

Con

OK now I believe corporations do not cause all the problems of the world.

I will not to my opponent that in fact we are talking about things as simple as for example falling off a cliff or forgetting to turn off the oven because we are generally talking about all the problems of the world. Forgetfulness is generally a problem in the world is it not? Or what about illness? That is a problem in the world and a corporation cannot caused the troubles of all illnesses. You see illness is caused by someone getting infected by a disease or virus or whatever you wish to call it. So what if you get a fever or pink eye? That is not a corporation's fault. What about if you are addicted to alcohol or drugs? That is not a corporation's fault either. That is an individual's choice and not based on a corporation's. Or what about a disaster at sea? The Costa Concordia is perfect example. It was the a corporation's fault that the boat sank. It was whoever gave the order to drive it in close to colliding causing its sinking. What if you decided to get obese? Obesity is a problem in the world is it not? If it is a problem in the world and it is not caused by a corporation it is not the corporation's fault it is instead your choice to eat what you wish. What about the choice of going to war? The person making the choice to go to war is usually the leader of a country, if it were owned by a corporation and people of that corporation wanted to go to war that would be their choice, but there is no evidence of corporations starting the wars currently taking place. What about murder? I will admit that a corporation may have people working behind the scenes and a bad corporation may kill people, but we are talking about all the problems of the world and thus a corporation had to be at fault of all the murders of the world. So I do not believe that a corporation causes the death of let's say a person who wanted to rob a person so he shot him. So corporations do not cause all the problems and by all the problems I do mean all the problems of the world. Anything minor is a problem.
larztheloser

Pro

My opponent has brought up the following things he considers global problems. Thanks for keeping the list pretty short.

1) Falling off cliffs
This is usually due to inadequite warning labels on the side of the cliff, and inadequite safety barriers and so on. That ties in to the corporations because they're the ones who manufacture these warnings and barriers, and are ultimately responsible for the quality of their construction. While I do dispute that falling off cliffs is a major issue in this debate, corporations are usually the cause since nobody really chooses to fall off a cliff unless they're suicidal. If they are suicidal, there will be a motive behind this, which is suggestive of a different problem (of which falling off a cliff is only the symptom) and thus not directly relevant to the point. I'd appreciate the oppertunity to rebut some of these as well - bring them up and I will.

2) Forgetfulness
The technology exists to eliminate this. The problem is twofold - first, consumers don't really want it, partly because there are some things best forgotten, and partly because consumers don't like to be reminded of things they do remember. Secondly, the corporations limit access to the technology because they don't believe there is a market for it (and they're probably right). If my opponent does believe forgetfulness is a problem (and I'm in the camp that wouldn't really want to eliminate forgetfulness, but each to his own I guess), corporations have the power to solve it. Through inaction they create the problem.

3) Viruses
The prevalence of desease in the world isn't because of a lack of medical research. We have cures for almost everything nowadays, and solutions to remove the symptoms of everything else. The problem is one of access to medicine. We're talking about things like common vaccinations and preventative medicine being denied to the poor and the third world, and controlled by insurance corporations in the wealthier demographics. The medical research exists, it's all a matter of putting it into practice, and corporations won't let us.

4) Alcohol/drug addiction
These are predicated on large quantities of alcohol and drugs being available. Since corporations control all legally sold drugs and alcohol, I'm going to argue that nobody today gets addicted off homebrew alone, and I challenge my opponent to provide evidence that anybody has done so in the past month or so. Illegal drugs are also indirectly caused by corporations, because if corporations did not restrict access to drugs then there would be no market for illegal drugs, as has been demonstrated in every instance where drug legalisation has happened.

5) Sea disasters
We live in an age where ships can be controlled accurately by computer programs, and there is no need for captains. The only reason why seamen still exist is because the corporations continue to hire them. Any human error made by these people is entirely the fault of the corporations stupid enough to put people who make stupid decisions in charge of large ships. Had the corporation used computers, or even competant personell, the disasters would have been averted, as no computer has ever sunk a major ship. The fault thus rests on the HR departments of shipping and cruising corporations.

6) Obesity
This is connected with the type and manner in which we eat - types and manners encouraged and proliferated by corporations. This is unsurprising because corporations profit from it. Types, for instance - advertising by corporations is responsible for normalising food like hamburgers, which I can guarentee you 99% of obese people don't think of as being unusual, exotic, or reserved for very special occasions (the rest are still affected by other corporate messages about what food to eat). Manners, similary - the notion of when and how to eat is socially constructed, and as a part of society, corporations have had a significant impact on that.

7) War
Assuming we're talking about war as in armed conflict, then corporations are to blame because they control the world's weapons industries. If you look at all the major weapons manufacturers - indeed, even the minor ones - they are all corporations (whether owned by the state or privately). If there was no weapons industry there would be no significant amount of weapons in the world, and thus no critical mass for a war to happen.

8) Murder
Glad we agree at least some murder is caused by corporations. The rest of the murders are informed by beliefs corporations give us, supported by tools and weapons offered by corporations, and more often than not committed in the name of some value associated with a corporation. For example, take the murder of somebody shot for a robbery. Well, that will have been based on certain values - for instance, if the item robbed was money, the value of money. Money is an invention of corporations, because the issuers of money everywhere are public corporations - liability is distinct. This goes back to classical times. The gun used in the shooting will have been manufactured by a corporation. The relative value of a person's life is also informed by corporations. The film and gaming industry provides a very overt example, but there are many other no-so-obvious ones, such as the fair trade industry. I challenge my opponent to name one murder that was not caused by corporations in one way or another.

If pro has any more to add I'd welcome it.

Pro's key message: we have free will
This is completely wrong. We have the freedom to choose what products to buy in the supermarket - but all of them are manufactured by corporations. We have the freedom to choose where to go, but all forms of transport are corporatised. We have the freedom to speak, but the technology and infrastructure that allows us to do so is run by corporations. No matter what we do, our free will is limited to the choices given to us by the corporations. And thus while corporations can claim the credit for all the good stuff in the world, they must also share responsibility for all of the bad.
Debate Round No. 2
1Historygenius

Con

1) Usually those signs are seen. Also, the owner of the property has to ask for barriers and warnings and if they do not it is not a corporation's fault. Most of the time people probably make a simple mistake like with the video I am showing you.

2) The fact of the matter is you do not need a corporation to stop being forgetful. There are many ways you maybe forgetful such as your person traits. Some ways you can be forgetful would be lack of organization. Its not a corporation's fault you are not organized. I have placed a link explaining ways you can stop being forgetful [1].

3) Viruses
If you cannot simply afford medicine that is your fault, not a corporation's. A corporation has to make money to exist at a reasonable price. If you cannot afford the medicine why can you not? It may not be a corporation's fault for setting up a price is it?

4) Alcohol/drug addiction
The corporation can makes alcohol and drugs, but it is one's choice to get addicted by it. People don't get addicted because its there, they get addicted for a real reason like genetics, a mental illness, their social environment, and childhood trauma. These problems are not usually established by a corporation instead these problems happen personally. We have people that off course drink and take medicine, but they are not addicted and the corporation did not make that choice. If you get addicted or not is your choice and sometimes you maybe influenced by personal issues. [2]

5) Sea Disasters
Some good and experienced people at sea make mistakes sometimes. Also the reason seamen exist is to operate the following on a cruise ship:
- A captain
- a bridge supervisor
- a purser/hotel manager
- technicians
- sailors
- waiters

I am sure there is more and I do not believe we have all the technology to make an entire ship run by a machine. Now a corporation may say they take compete responsibility for a sea disaster, but that has become protocol now. People get where they are for a reason and a person is no completely stupid otherwise they may not had been hired in the first. Also by the time someone is a captain they usually have a lot of experience. So whatever they order is what has to be done and if they order and mistake a mistake is then made. The fact is today's captains are not expected to make mistakes yet they still do [3].

6) Obesity
A corporation simply just makes the hamburger. Its hamburger now what? That is all the corporation has to do and the only way a corporation would make a mistake would be if it was not hamburger or if it was poisonous, but we are talking about obesity. Obesity is the condition of being very fat or overweight [4]. You know what a burger is and when you eat it you are expecting it to taste like a burger. That is all a corporation has to succeed. It is your decisions to get fat. Most people get fat because of relatively the same reasons as drugs and alcohol. Maybe things like genetics or personal problems. Off course the big one is not keeping in shape and a corporation does not tell you if you should jog of not [5].

War
It is the government's choice to go to war or not and its not the fault of a corporation if they do go to war. A corporation is simply doing its job. If they were not at war they would still be making weapons no different.

Murder
My doctors agree that it is usually psychological build up causing murder. Yes you are influenced to kill someone, but does a corporation tell you to murder that someone? I already explained that corporation can influence some murder that is in their interests, but unless they are physically telling someone to murder, they are not causing murder. Also my opponent fails to point out a murder weapon can be as simple as bare fists or a rock.

1) http://www.scotthyoung.com...
2) http://www.hbo.com...
3) http://gcaptain.com...
4) http://dictionary.reference.com...
5) http://wiki.answers.com...
larztheloser

Pro

I thank my opponent for developing his contentions.

1. Falling off cliffs
As you can see by watching that video, there were no warning signs or safety barriers. By failing to erect them, corporations caused the problem. A corporation could have chosen to prevent that problem but didn't, and can therefore be said to have caused it. The "simple mistake" of the bikers would never have been made if it weren't for the passivity of engineering corporations. Inaction is problematic.

2. Forgetfulness
Con cites a site that explains how to improve memory without the aid of corporations. That's all well and good, but that only tackles the symptoms of forgetfulness, not the cause. Humans are bombarded with thousands of pieces of new information every minute, and the vast majority came from a corporation. You're looking at an advertisement for a corporation right now - several in fact - even though you probably don't realise it. Corporations create the problem by deliberately overloading us with data in favor of brand recognition. But they can solve it. The PDA was a rudimentry attempt to do that, with integrated apps to make it more appealing, but it didn't sell well because customers didn't believe the device had much value to them. That's why I don't think this is a significant problem. But if it is, then it is totally the corporation's fault you are not organised, because they have the ability to organise your life, and they didn't. It's like this - suppose you have the power to save a person's life, and you choose not to. Are you not then responsible for their death? If you agree with that, then you agree that by not acting, corporations are culpable.

3. Viruses
My opponent asks why poor people can't afford medicine. Well, where do people get money from to buy medicine (or anything else for that matter)? Ultimately it comes from wages. Where do wages come from? Corporations. Corporations are thus solely responsible for all the income inequality in the world. Furthermore, that's only half my argument. The other half is that corporations exclude availability of medication not just through money, but just by not exporting to the third world. That causes viruses to spread. Medical corporations make more profit if lots of people get infected with desease, so in profit terms, it's in their best interests.

4. Alcohol/drug addiction
Nobody chooses to be addicted. Addiction is a side-effect of use. If you drink alcohol regulary and in sufficiently large quantities, you will become addicted, regardless of whether you choose to or not. The only choice you make is whether to abuse alcohol. The real problem is the fact that people have that choice in the first place. Corporations are the ones who give them that choice. By providing us with alcohol, corporations allow us to be addicted. They therefore cause the problem - the cause the fact some people will choose the alternative of excessive consumption by allowing it to happen. After all, it's in their best interests, as it means more profit for them. Whether any given individual is addicted may be influenced by personal issues, but the overall problem of alcohol and drug addiction remains fundamentally premised on the existance of alcohol and drugs, both of which are provided by corporations.

5. Sea Disasters
Waiters and hotel managers don't cause ships to sink. The other positions are entirely un-necessary. Computers are not only entirely safe, as has been demonstrated by the lack of accidents, they're also so advanced they can compensate exactly for the motion of each individual wave before it even happens using a near-perfect prediction model (http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu...). They're extremely cheap (http://www.alibaba.com...) and have been in use on ships since the 1920s (http://en.wikipedia.org...).

The fact is that corporations have it in their power to prevent all sea disasters. Not only could they stop hiring incompetant sailors, and transfer most of the ship's running to computers, but they could simply stop building ships. Everything to do with shipping is ultimately a corporation's responsibility. As with all of these points, my opponent has failed to show even a single example of where a corporation was not at fault - except that he can't, because all the poor decisions made by people are vindicated by a corporation's hiring process, all the poor decisions made by computers are vindicated by a corporation's programming (not that there are any, of course), and all the problems associating with shipping are vindicated by corporations who encourage shipping, and are indeed the sole cause and reason for all shipping today.

6. Obesity
Corporations do not simply make a hamburger. They make it in a particular way. They market the hamburger. They sell the hamburger. They wrap the hamburger. They usually provide places to eat the hamburger. All this communicates messages - not just to customers, but to employees and the community at large. Most of it operates at a subconcious level. Take, for instance, color associations. Red is often tied to excitement. Gold is tied to status and royalty. Now what are the colors of McDonalds? We might not immediately associate McDonalds with royalty and excitement, but the colors were not picked randomly. They were deliberately targetted to encourage people to eat hamburgers. KFC is another example - blue/white/red are the colors of the United States. Those colors were also deliberately chosen to portray KFC as patriotic.

Ultimately, corporations are at your back telling you to consume more and more of their services, and less of their competitors. They provide access to foods that encourage overconsumption - it's in their interests to make food as unfulfilling as possible. They create lifestyle images of how people should be - for instance, Burger King is usually associated with a more rebellious lifestyle. Were it not for corporations, these values and foods would not exist. There is no rational human incentive for obesity. It's just a problem created by corporations.

7. War
Pro says corporations are just doing their job in allowing war to happen. That may be so, but if just doing their job has bad consequences, that does not mean they bear any less responsibility. Hitler was just doing his job as well, after all, but that makes him no less responsible for the holocaust.

8. Murder
Corporations control the way we express, they tell us what to express (and it's not just the fashion or film industry - even cereal is a form of self-expression nowadays), and they tell us how to express ourselves. Corporations are thus responsible for all human expression, and therefore jointly responsible for all murder. Suppose somebody reads this argument and decides to murder somebody as a result. Is it really me that is culpable, or is it DDO for allowing them to read what I'm saying? But for DDO they wouldn't have heard it. Furthermore, but for DDO, I wouldn't have made this argument in the first place. All human expression is governed, in some way, by a corporation. Because it wasn't me that told you to murder the next person you see. It was your computer screen, manufactured by some company. And it was only relaying orders from a processor, made by another company. And the electricity company shares some of the responsibility as well. These things DEFINE and LIMIT human interaction processes. If the combination of messages demands a murder, then a murder takes place. And that's the brief history of every single murder that's happened in the last century or so. My challenge to my opponent to find a murder disconnected from corporations remains open - unless he can fulfil it, there is no good reason to believe the contrary.

I look forward to our final round.
Debate Round No. 3
1Historygenius

Con

1. Falling off cliffs
Perhaps no one asked them to place any barriers in first place. That would be the likely reason why. It is not a corporation's decision to place barriers all along cliffs, that would be the decision of the owner. Let's take the Grand Canyon for example. There are not a lot of barriers around it because no one asked for barriers to be placed there. Thus the responsibility of one's death lies in the hands of the owner.

2. Forgetfulness
Actually it is not a corporation's fault. Humans need to only remember necessary information not just random stuff they see on TV. If you see a commercial made by a corporation about advertising for a new cell phone it may be funny and that is how you react to it, but that is it so usually the information given to us by a corporation is usually what is forgotten first because it is not necessary. Would you rather remember a commercial for hot dogs or the fact that you need to take your dog to the vet? A corporation cannot organized your life for you by simply producing things. Otherwise you would just sit there and wait for your life to be organized. No disorganization can be caused by stress at a job, but that is it. Disorganization can also when let's say a relative dies and that is not a corporation's fault. A corporation's job is not to make your organized it is to make and sell products. Sure they may sell something that may help you become more organized, but it is overall your choice if you wish to buy it or not. Corporations can influence people to buy it, but if everyone was influenced everyone would buy that object and I don't think everyone in the world owns that same object, let's say the object is a folder. If anything it helps people get organized, but people may not always want a folder.

3. Viruses
Not all wages come from corporations. What if you work for a small business? What if you work for the government? What if you don't want a job and live on welfare? So no this entire problem is not completely genuine to corporations so it is not entirely a corporation's fault. Also what about countries where healthcare is free? You would not have to purchase anything at all. Many country's with free healthcare have problems with people getting treated with whatever problem they have [1]. So in other words perhaps people in those countries die because they do not get treated in time and that is not a corporation's fault. Since most of these nations have a government-run healthcare system.

4. Alcohol/drug addiction
You choose to drink or not. Many people do not drink alcohol. I have also found out that are people that do home brew their own beer. I found that it is legal in 15 countries. In the United States, the states largely decide if they want it legalized and some do [2]. As a matter of fact my previous link proved why people people do get addicted to alcohol and drugs. My opponent tried to counter by saying the reason why was because corporations offer than choices, but I just found out corporations are not completely responsible for this problem in the world as I have found out about home brewing. So my opponent said first, " The real problem is the fact that people have that choice in the first place." and then he said, " the overall problem of alcohol and drug addiction remains fundamentally premised on the existance of alcohol and drugs, both of which are provided by corporations." so my opponent contradicted himself here. First saying the main problem was he fact that people have the choice to and then he said the main problem is that they exist. Choice and existence are two different things so he contradicted himself. I proved corporations are not causing the entire problem because of the existence of home brewing. Also remember that wine for example is produced in a vineyard which is not a corporation, a vineyard is a plantation. So if anyone could be blamed for its existence it would be its makers who work at vineyard [3]. It is one's choice to make wine in the first place so wine is made by individuals. Also lets say you have the choice to buy something because its there being sold by a corporation. That sounds ludicrous first off anyway which is we what my opponent is saying. People become alcoholics because its there. This is wrong. Just because a boat is being sold those not mean people while by the boat because it is there. In fact more proof that people have a choice would be when they don't buy something and thus a corporation has to take that object off the market because it is not making a profit. This shows that people have a choice which is the same with alcohol. In health classes we also learn the main reason people drink or use drugs is because of peer pressure from friends and that is a fact. So no, just because its there being sold from corporations does not mean you will become addicted to it. You are made to drink from personal issues and in fact people who have personal issues may not drink, but may fine something else to do to make a the pain go away. Its all in their choice.

5. Sea Disasters
The following disasters at sea were caused by people doing the wrong thing. These crashes have nothing to do with machines, but have to do with their drivers. In the first video the info says that the guy driving the boat hit the wave at the wrong angle causing the disaster. In the second one the person crashed into the docks. In a third two people were driving and rammed into each other. So as you can see boat crashes and ship crashes a like are the fault of humans and these smaller boats are probably not owned by corporations. These boats need a crew to drive. After all someone needs to work a computer right? So as wee see from these videos this is proof not all boat accidents are caused by corporations.

6. Obesity
Here is why obesity is not a problem created completely by corporations. Corporations are not causing the entire problem first off. Small businesses might cause this problem to with the food they sell, it all depends on what you as an individual prefer to eat. Many people don't eat places like fast food restaurants and eat at other places. There are some factors in weight gain that people may not be able to control over. For example, you cannot control an illness that may cause weight gain or maybe pre-existing factors like genetics cause it. The simplest reason why we gain weight is because you may not monitor your calorie intake and it is not a corporation's job to monitor it for you [4].

7. War
Many totalitarian regimes produce their own weapons in the world and these usually tend to be third world companies, but sometimes nations like China also make their own weapons. So corporations are not building all the weapons for all the nations of the world and thus they are not completely at fault.

8. Murder
Corporations do not control every wary people express. Let's look at Amish people for example. Amish live in their own societies where usually corporations are not and thus they do not control the way the Amish express themselves. What about in communist nations where corporations are not allowed? What about in impoverished nations where there may not be corporations. In fact people kill people for a reason, they are not just going to kill someone. You usually have a reason to kill someone. Maybe you are a racist and usually racism is cause by how you are brought up, then you kill someone.

So in conclusion corporation do not cause every single problem. Vote Con!

1) http://www.biggovhealth.org...
2) http://www.homebrewersassociation.org...
3) http://dictionary.reference.com...
4) http://weightloss.about.com...
5) http://answers.yahoo.com...
larztheloser

Pro

In order to show that corporations cause all problems, I asked my opponent to identify everything that was a problem. Con produced eight such problems. Remember that this debate is NOT about whether coporations cause everything that you consider to be a problem - this debate is only about whether the problems that con thinks are problems are caused by corporations. Con has identified eight such problems. Con has not proved that any of them are not caused by corporations.

Here's why I win each of the eight points:

1. Falling off cliffs
Con asserts that landowners do not ask to put up signs, and thus corporations shouldn't. The problem therefore is the fact that people own real property - something that would never have happened in common law systems were it not for the corporations. Corporations encouraged the British crown to allow them to legally possess land to keep robbers from even coming near their possessions (robbery was a big problem in Britain, historically). With the support of various politicians and philosophers, private ownership of land was in many ways the beginning of modern corporate lobbying. So if that's what my opponent blames the problem on, then corporations are ultimately at fault as well.

2. Forgetfulness
Con continuously appeals to the "it's not their job to organise your life, it's yours", and the "it's your choice if you use corporations or not". I dealt with the "it's not their job" last round by proving this does not exclude culpability, for instance in the case of Hitler and the holocaust. I dealt with the "it's your choice" in a seperate paragraph in round one - we do not really have a choice, we only choose from the options presented to us by corporations. Corporations are giving us the option to forget - after all, forgetting about competitors is in the corporation's best interests.

3. Viruses
Government fall under the definition of corporation that I presented in round one, and my opponent agreed to. Governments are nothing but corporations with legal powers. Small businesses are either sole traders or corporations. If they are sole traders, they are such small players in the market that their prices will inevitably be set for them by the big players, ie the corporations. Sole traders derive their income from their prices, according to the microeconomic theory of competition. So yes, in every case, income inequality is the fault of corporations.

Countries where the healthcare is free are exclusively third-world countries that corporations deny access to medicine to. That's why vaccines are so hard to get in Cuba. It's also the reason why, as my opponent put it, "many countries with free healthcare have problems with people getting treated with whatever problem they have". Corporations are to blame.

4. Alcohol/drugs
The whole "it's your choice" thing I've dealt with a million times already, probably, so I'm not going to rebut it again here so long as my opponent keeps making the same assertions. The only other objection he still raises is that some people make homebrew - I agreed to this in round 2, but asked my opponent to show that anybody ever gets addicted to alcohol through homebrew alone. Nobody does.

5. Sea Disasters
Corporations can end all sea disasters by ending all shipping, if that's what con wants. Con never responded to this. They can also use ship autopilots, which FYI require no control to run while in operation. Boats don't need a crew. Either way - controlled by human or machine - the decision of who or what to put into control is always a decision made by a corporation. In the case of small boat owners, the driving mechanism will have been installed by a corporation, vindicating whatever manner it is driven in. In the case of docks, docks are corporations.

6. Obesity
My opponent cites three factors - illness, genetics and not monitoring calories (another "not the corporation's job" fallacy) - alledgedly not linked to coporations. On illness, I've dealt with that in the "viruses" section. On genetics (and illness too, for that matter), this is because people got fat in the past and selected for others like them. The reason why people made this selection (just like all relationships and break-ups today) was informed by social norms and values. But ultimately, obesity would not be a problem (in that it would be sufficiently isolated to not pose a major health risk) if corporations were never around, because again, foods that make you obese, high in sugar and fat, can only really be constructed by corporations. Corporations want to encourage you to eat too much.

7. War
I showed corporations manufacture all weapons. Con claims governments produce some weapons. However, if you look back to my round one definition of a corporation, you will see that governments fall under that definition. Thus all war is the fault of corporations.

8. Murder
I agree that coporations do not control most of life for Amish people (but even there, external events from corporations have beyond doubt influenced their community's actions, and their leader's councils fall under the definition of a corporation). However, I also contend Amish people do not murder. If they did, they wouldn't be Amish.

Communist nations have many corporations, the biggest one being the communist party itself. You can't sue the communist party members for their actions in the communist party in communism, after all. You just ship them to Siberia without trial. For impoverished nations, there are corporations in every instance. I've been fortunate to have done a bit of travelling around the pacific. There are great mining and commercial operations there. But if you travel out to the slums, you'll see where the poverty comes from - it's not from the rich, touristy luxury of corporations. It's from the values they impress down on poorer people - they portray an image of what's not poor. As that's what poor people aspire towards, those are the values they try to emulate.

If you kill for a reason, that reason will be informed by values presented by corporations. Race and racial identity is a good example - corporations are always communicating all sorts of messages about race. Consider, for instance, airline industry advertising. Next time you watch an airline ad, take note of the race. If you ever see an ad for a casino, take note of the race. See an ad for an online game, take note of the race. If you do it conciously it becomes very obvious how many messages about race are communicated to us every second.

Conclusion
Every fall con has been able to show has been for want of a warning. Every forgotten memory has been for want of a reminder. Every virus has been for want of a cure. Every addiction has been because of an addictive substance. Every sea disaster con has shown has been because of the existance of ships, and human error. All obesity has been caused by marketing. All war has been caused by weapons. All murder has been caused by social values.

And who produces warnings? Who produces reminders? Who produces cures? Who produces addictive substances? Who produces ships and hires incompetant captains? Who does marketing? Who produces weapons? Who produces social norms and values more than anybody else?

Corporations do.

And corporations are responsible. Our whole concept of free will, and of what corporation's roles are, has been written by corporations. It's time we acknowledged this.

Vote pro.

On an unrelated note, to everyone that said this motion was undebateable, I hope that you're feeling bad whether I win or not. Every motion is debateable, unless it's a tautology.
Debate Round No. 4
42 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by larztheloser 4 years ago
larztheloser
If either of those things came up in the debate I would have had a response.
Posted by imabench 4 years ago
imabench
I still dont see how my dog humping my little sisters teddy bear so hard its head falls out is a corporations fault, but i didnt read the debate so i wont vote
Posted by PeacefulChaos 4 years ago
PeacefulChaos
I still can't believe corporations tripped me ...
Posted by Zaradi 4 years ago
Zaradi
......
Mad props larz. Mad props.
Posted by 1Historygenius 4 years ago
1Historygenius
I said no semantics in this debate imabench so you would have lost.
Posted by imabench 4 years ago
imabench
OH COME ON!!!!!!

I would have argued that corporations cause all the problems in the world............. of warcraft
Posted by larztheloser 4 years ago
larztheloser
If there was an evil grin smiley available for me to use, I'd use it now.
Posted by Zaradi 4 years ago
Zaradi
Oh, I see what you did there. That may actually be a talking point, so you may want to be able to defend that justification for limiting the debate to world-wide events/issues.

You still have your work cut out for you, conspiracy theory or not.
Posted by larztheloser 4 years ago
larztheloser
Actually the lack of literacy and numeracy skills in the world is due to the commercialization of education to a considerable extent. Will expand on that if con brings it up.
Posted by Zaradi 4 years ago
Zaradi
Good luck proving it's the corporations fault I'm failing math xD
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Travniki 4 years ago
Travniki
1HistorygeniuslarztheloserTied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro took an abusive topic, turned it into something debatable and won it. Kudos
Vote Placed by Koopin 4 years ago
Koopin
1HistorygeniuslarztheloserTied
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Total points awarded:25 
Reasons for voting decision: Amazing job by Pro. lol.