The Instigator
jar2187
Pro (for)
Winning
8 Points
The Contender
tvellalott
Con (against)
Losing
2 Points

Could Batman Be A Special Force Op?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
jar2187
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/18/2011 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,107 times Debate No: 16446
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (27)
Votes (2)

 

jar2187

Pro

The Special Forces are among the toughest of the armed forces in America’s military, indeed among the world. They are world renowned for their discipline, efficiency and physical fitness. Batman has trained himself to a similar stature and has become world-renowned as the world’s toughest superhero (without superpowers no doubt). However, he has not gone through the training course. But could he survive as a Special Force Operative? Assuming that if Batman/Bruce Wayne were real, I will argue that he can be a Special Forces Operative.

The Pro:
Miles of Running, Swimming, or Rucking Daily: Special Force Operatives executes miles physical exertion which challenges the trainee day and night. Batman has long prepared for in his training, and continues to execute long days and nights of physical exertion, in his fight against crime.

Muscle Exhaustion: Special Force Operatives are put through training programs are designed to max out the students physically in every exercise. Luckily, this is no trouble for the Batman. He has trained himself to the peak of physical perfection, performing feats of strength and agility few have accomplished. He is considered, within the DC Universe continuum, to be a world-class gymnast up to par with Olympic training. The Batman has been physically exerted past muscle exhaustion many times, in his training abroad and during his city patrol. He has built up a tolerance to pain throughout the years, and has worked through it.

Lack of Sleep / Mental Exhaustion: Each of the training programs have long days and longer nights which amount to little or no sleep for long periods of time.The Batman has been known for achieving little sleep, functioning days at a time. Yet, his logical/analytical mind has not suffered due to his lack of sleep. While this is usually physically and mentally demanding, he has become mentally tough, learning how his body would function under extreme duress, working through it. Because of it, as a man of sheer determination, Batman exerts himself past the physical and mental limitations of a normal man and pushes himself beyond the boundaries towards pure will and instinct.

Minimal Food Eaten Daily: As with sleep, Special Force Operatives run on little food. They may have to if they do not have time to eat and must keep moving. The Batman has been seen eating, but understands that he must work through hunger to solve his case.

Mental Abuse/Torture: From the time of his parents’ murders at the time of a young age, Batman has faced numerous demons. He has experienced the Joker’s chaos, the Scarecrow’s fear gas, the physically crippling attacks of Bane, Hush’s chess-like game, Dr. Hurt’s attempt to reduce Batman to a mass of sheer confusion – resulting in a lack of self-confidence, Ra’s Al-Ghul’s manipulative exploitation, and even the brainwashing of a cult! Batman has far been mentally abused to these sorts of terrorists, the many of which I believe far outweigh that of an average terrorist.

Miserable Water and Air Temperatures: Special Force Operatives are subject to cold, wet, damp, dirty environments as well as hot, humid, dry locations including high altitudes and jungles. Batman has travelled through desert, tundra, jungle, and urban environments. The body must adapt to the environment of these locations at all time. Batman’s body is trained to the peak of physical perfection, and easily overcomes the setting of each locale.

Espionage and deception: This is perhaps Batman’s modus operandi. He deals with deception everyday, by retaining dual identities. He is a “spy” in the sense that he can easily use one of his many identities to exhume information from the criminal underworld (Matches Malone, Lefty Knox, Bruce Wayne, Batman, etc…). And since he has no moral qualms about it, there is no doubt that he will continue to use espionage and deception on the battlefield as in the war against crime.

Bat-Sources:
Batman: Hush
Batman: The Long Halloween
Batman: Year One
Batman Comics #1
Batman: A Lonely Place of Dying
Batman: Tales of the Demon
Batman Begins
Batman: R.I.P.
Batman: Knightfall, pt. 1
Batman: The Cult
Batman: The Dark Knight Returns
tvellalott

Con

OPENING
Thank you to my opponent for creating this interesting debate. Batman is, without a doubt, my favourite hero in all of fiction. He has everything going for him. However, I took this debate because I don’t believe that Bruce Wayne could be a Green Beret, despite his vast array of training and skills.

ARGUMENTS
BEFORE WE GET STARTED
Before I begin, I’d like to say that I concede all arguments that my opponent made in his opening round. In my personal opinion, Bruce Wayne would beat a Green Beret in any kind of physical challenge you could think of, except perhaps sharp-shooting and this is simply because Batman doesn’t use guns. These points are irrelevant when you consider my two lines of argument.

ARGUMENT ONE – BATMAN DOESN’T KILL PEOPLE
There are semantic exceptions to this, depending on the particular storyline you’re reading but as a rule, this is it. Batman doesn’t kill people. How much better off would Gotham be if he simply killed the Joker once he realised how dangerous he was?
This would be quite a hindrance for a Green Beret, who are essentially expert killers.

ARGUMENT TWO – BATMAN DOESN’T WORK VERY WELL IN A TEAM
Batman has his own moral code; we have seen this time and time again. He left the Justice League because of it. Apart from the above rule, Batman has NO rules. He will torture and he will lie. This would conflict greatly with the role of a Green Beret. Batman wouldn’t take orders from General what’s-his-face, and risk killing innocent civilians and/or letting the bad guy escape because of the inevitable bureaucracy that comes with being a US solider.

ARGUMENT THREE- BATMAN IS FAR TOO EFFICIENT
This is an extension of the previous two arguments. Working in a team of mere men would simply hinder Batman; he would inevitably worry about his team-mates, yet he would endanger them by trying to be non-Lethal.

CONCLUSION
Batman would no doubt qualify to be a Green Beret with flying colours; however it is not his physical abilities that would stop him from being a Green Beret but his personal code and personality.
Green Berets kill people; Batman does not.
Green Berets are more efficient in a team; Batman is not.

In other words, Batman could not be a Green Beret.
Debate Round No. 1
jar2187

Pro

A great many thanks goes to my opponent for accepting my challenge. I believe that the case I’ve made is solid enough to dissuade many contenders from adopting an opposing view. Indeed, most of my would-be contenders agree with me. Batman is my favorite superhero as well. And we will see why he would be perfect as a Special Operative, including a Green Beret.

“Before I begin, I’d like to say that I concede all arguments that my opponent made in his opening round. In my personal opinion, Bruce Wayne would beat a Green Beret in any kind of physical challenge you could think of, except perhaps sharp-shooting and this is simply because Batman doesn’t use guns.”
On the contrary, in the Batman: The Dark Knight Returns, issue #1, Batman does use a sniper rifle in order to stop Two-Face. But he does not shoot him. He shots at, I believe, a hot air balloon. He is an expert sharp-shooter. But he will not use a gun on a human being. As long as the target is non-human, the target is acceptable.

“There are semantic exceptions to this, depending on the particular storyline you’re reading but as a rule, this is it. Batman doesn’t kill people. How much better off would Gotham be if he simply killed the Joker once he realised how dangerous he was? This would be quite a hindrance for a Green Beret, who are essentially expert killers.”
Green Berets, as all Special Operatives, are expert killers in the fact that they have demonstrated knowledge proficiently in how and where to kill a man. However, a Special Operative, including a Green Beret, need not demonstrated that they have killed a man nor kill a man in training, to graduate. Batman has demonstrated knowledge proficiency in how and where to kill a man several times. I believe he has this knowledge, not in preparation to kill a man, but to solve cases more efficiently (to find out how and where on its persons one has died). Batman has often wondered what it would be like to kill the Joker. He has even announces that he wanted to kill the Joker! But won’t. As a Green Beret, he still wouldn’t have to kill anyone either…

In an episode of the documentary Combat Zone entitled “A Tight Spot”, an eight man Special Forces unit find themselves deep beyond enemy lines during Operation: Desert Storm on a mostly non-violent mission. They were to acquire information on a key Iraqi location. It was a simple “in and out” – except for they had to engage Iraqi soldiers. As one of the Green Berets recalls, he had no choice but to shoot and kill one of the soldiers. He cried and exclaimed that he would have never imagined actually having to take a life, due to his Christian belief. He did what he country demanded of him. What did he expect? Only the truth: that it was logically possible that he could have accomplished the mission without killing. That he could have even went through his entire career as a Special Operative without killing. In the same situation, Batman, being an excellent sharpshooter, could steady himself to simply shot to wound, merely taking each of the soldiers out of commission without necessarily killing them. The point is not just to kill soldiers. It is to take them out of action; to neutralize the threat anyway you can. Killing is easier, but only sufficient – not necessary. And even enemy soldiers alive are much more valuable to the United States military, in terms of information, than dead.

"Batman has his own moral code; we have seen this time and time again. He left the Justice League because of it. Apart from the above rule, Batman has NO rules. He will torture and he will lie. This would conflict greatly with the role of a Green Beret. Batman wouldn’t take orders from General what’s-his-face, and risk killing innocent civilians and/or letting the bad guy escape because of the inevitable bureaucracy that comes with being a US solider."
Batman will torture and will lie. And so will Green Berets. Psychological and physical torture (acceptable beatings and intimidating) are used in the military, not just water-boarding. And Green Berets, even soldiers, can respectfully disagree and directly disobey orders to their best judgment, to save lives of the innocents. Batman will disobey orders if necessary (he does this all the time to Gordon), he will face the threat of court marshalling to disobey, but may he have to do it? Certainly, the general and even other operatives in Batman’s hypothetical Special Forces unit are competent enough to aid Batman and allow him the freedom to act as non-lethally. He may agree to go along, for now, for the mission. But only up to a certain point; the point that benefits the mission.

“Working in a team of mere men would simply hinder Batman; he would inevitably worry about his team-mates, yet he would endanger them by trying to be non-Lethal.”
Batman has often worked with a team of sidekicks: Nightwing, Robin (Jason Todd and Tim Drake), Spoiler, Batgirl (Barbara Gordon and Cassandra Cain), Black Canary, Huntress, Catwoman, Superman, etc. In fact, even in old age, Batman has realized the value of a sidekick. The fourth Robin, Carrie Kelly, allies herself with the Dark Knight. He picks his sidekicks to his standards. Most Special Operatives are up to a standard that he can work with. And Batman usually uses them to his advantage. He can work around both his sidekicks and Special Forces unit. Indeed, Batman is so efficient, that engaging in non-lethal action will not work endanger his unit. And after training with them, Batman will know how they operate and adjust his actions in correlation to theirs. Thank you.

Sources:
Batman: The Dark Knight Returns: http://en.wikipedia.org...
Combat Zone: In A Tight Spot: http://military.discovery.com...
tvellalott

Con

OPENING
I hope to avoid a battle of semantics, so I must make this point. I am arguing that Batman is not suitable as a Green Beret. There is no doubt (as I made clear) that he could pass any test that may be required of him. I hope to reasonably show that he couldn’t BE a Green Beret because their methods and objectives are so far from his own.

REBUTTALS
Batman as a sharp-shooter
Yes, Batman can certainly use a gun. My point was that a Green Beret, who is constantly training in firearm usage may beat Batman in a competition of gun skills, given he doesn’t use a gun as part of his equipment.
My opponent makes this assertion, which completely supports my argument:
“He is an expert sharp-shooter. But he will not use a gun on a human being. As long as the target is non-human, the target is acceptable.”

I ask; how Batman could possibly function as a Green Beret if he finds it unacceptable to shoot at another Human Being?

Batman as a killer
My opponent suggests that Batman wouldn’t need to show he could kill a man to be accepted into the Green Berets. I think this is beside the point; regardless of whether he would ever actually have to kill anyone, he must be prepared to. It is of the upmost important to a Green Beret (or any Soldier) that they don’t hesitate in firing upon armed enemy combatants.

“Batman, being an excellent sharpshooter, could steady himself to simply shot to wound, merely taking each of the soldiers out of commission without necessarily killing them. The point is not just to kill soldiers. It is to take them out of action; to neutralize the threat anyway you can. Killing is easier, but only sufficient – not necessary.”

I find this statement quite ridiculous; certainly Batman COULD ‘shoot to neutralise’, but in the heat of a gun battle that is a hesitation that could potentially cost a team member his life. Batman wouldn’t put himself into a position where he would likely have to kill another man. My opponent has already correctly stated that he would not use a gun on another Human Being.

Batman’s moral code
“Green Berets, even soldiers, can respectfully disagree and directly disobey orders to their best judgment, to save lives of the innocents. Batman will disobey orders if necessary (he does this all the time to Gordon), he will face the threat of court marshalling to disobey, but may he have to do it?”

My opponent has suggested Batman could disobey a direct order from his commanding officer at the risk of being court marshalled. This would surely prevent him from being a Green Beret, would it not?
(On a side note, I would certainly not compare the relationship between Batman and Gordon to that of a soldier and his commanding officer. Batman doesn’t take orders from Gordon, quite the contrary. Batman will do whatever he needs.)

Batman in a team
My opponent has used examples of Batman’s sidekicks as examples of him working in a team. Actually, this demonstrates my point perfectly well. The key word, my friend, is SIDEKICK. Batman is always the shot-caller. Disobedience generally results in a parting of ways. I cite Nightwing #101-#105 as evidence of this, where Batman fires Robin as a result of a growing difference in goals.
“…after training with them, Batman will know how they operate and adjust his actions in correlation to theirs.”
At risk of making an unfounded assertion about Batman’s character, I feel Batman’s ‘adjustment’ would be to attack targets before his team ever arrives, swooping in by the moonlight and disabling any and all enemies before they even had a chance to defend themselves.

CONCLUSION
Batman would certainly pass all training required to join the Green Berets, however that is as far as he would go. Not only would he be frustrated to madness by the restrictions upon placed upon him as a soldier, but he simply wouldn’t be able to function. He works outside the law because he knows he cannot do what he needs to within that framework. As I have shown, he (like Rorschach of Watchmen) has a strict moral code that he will not budge from, no matter what.

I have shown that Batman is completely unsuitable to work as a Green Beret.
Resolution Negated.
Debate Round No. 2
jar2187

Pro

The resolution has not been negated. The resolution is "Can Batman be a Special Operative". Indeed, my opponent has conceded this point, as he maintains "Batman would certainly pass all training required to join the Green Berets". But he is arguing rom a much different resolution, when he states that Batman will not be suitable for the Green Berets. Will Batman act as a stereotypical Green Beret, that is one that must shoot to kill? No. Can Batman pass all of the training required to join the Green Berets? Yes. This is all that it will take for Batman to be a Green Beret, or any Special Force Operatives. Batman does not have to be suitable on the battlefield to be a Green Beret. Indeed, some Green Berets never see combat, but are still Green Berets nonetheless.

Batman may not be a perfect sharpshooter, but he has proven himself to be competent enough to pass this test. Batman will not kill, and nor do Green Berets have to. A Green Beret may take an oath to swear to kill. Batman may lie in this oath, or even pretned to mouth the words. A Green Beret can contradict the orders of his superiors if he provides a good reason. This is what the army expects, soliders who can accurately assess the situation to do what is right. And that fact that my opponent acknowledges that Batman has sidekicks is a concession that Batman will work in a team. Green Berets can have team leaders. Batman could very well be a team leader - where he is the shot caller.

Batman can be a Green Beret, since all it that I am arguing is that he would pass the training regime. Thank you and I thank my opponent.
tvellalott

Con

tvellalott forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
27 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by tvellalott 5 years ago
tvellalott
Spewing about the forfeit; I knew you were going to resort to semantics and I had my counter-argument all ready. :(
Posted by tvellalott 5 years ago
tvellalott
Sorry about the for forfeit. Moved house last week and didn't have the internet on. :(
Posted by Kinesis 6 years ago
Kinesis
Ha ha
Posted by Cliff.Stamp 6 years ago
Cliff.Stamp
Reptoids would be involved, that would be for certain.
Posted by Kinesis 6 years ago
Kinesis
"I clicked to accept this about 5s after tvellalott."

And so, history itself splits in one direction instead of the other. What would have happened if Cliff had taken this debate? We will never know.
Posted by Cliff.Stamp 6 years ago
Cliff.Stamp
I clicked to accept this about 5s after tvellalott.
Posted by tvellalott 6 years ago
tvellalott
Actually, I just thought of an awesome line of argument. I ACCEPT!
Posted by tvellalott 6 years ago
tvellalott
Because I love Batman! He is a one-man, non-lethal special forces team, with better technology, better methods and a cool suit.
Posted by jar2187 6 years ago
jar2187
Why not, tvellalott?
Posted by tvellalott 6 years ago
tvellalott
Gah, I'm not touching this with a barge pole.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Ore_Ele 5 years ago
Ore_Ele
jar2187tvellalottTied
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Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeiture. Going into the last round, I think that Con was winning with the "batman would not kill" but leaving the last round unrefuted is like tripping at the finish line.
Vote Placed by Cliff.Stamp 5 years ago
Cliff.Stamp
jar2187tvellalottTied
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Total points awarded:42 
Reasons for voting decision: A semantic win but argument to Pro 3:2, forfeit 1 pt to Pro.