The Instigator
Knaveslayer99
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
GoogooGaga
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Count Dooku [Pro] Vs Mace Windu [Con]

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/15/2016 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 4 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 252 times Debate No: 96154
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (9)
Votes (0)

 

Knaveslayer99

Pro

This debate is simply just for Star Wars Fans who have a great amount of knowledge of the Star Wars Universe [Canon & Legends] However for the simplicity of this battle we will be taking the Canon versions of these characters and pitting them against each other. If you are going to accept this Debate please make sure you are aware of the Lore of Star Wars Canon.

Let's Debate: Darth Tyranus Vs Mace Windu

R1: Acceptance
R2: Arguments
R3: Counter-Arguments
R4: Conclusions

P.S Let's try to have a little fun :3
GoogooGaga

Con

Count Dooku was always a bad fighter, he was a very good avoider of fights if anything and mastered a lightsaber with a handle that allowed easy wrist movement because his wrist was too weak and frail to cope with the straight handle.

This fight is simply not fair, it's like Gandhi vs Malcolm X.
Debate Round No. 1
Knaveslayer99

Pro

I would like to thank Con for accepting this Debate.

Con claims this fight is unfair but I disagree here is why.

Darth Tyranus or better known Count Dooku was a experienced Jedi Master before turning to the Darkside. Dooku's role within the Jedi order actually gives him more experience in combat than other Jedi as he was dispatched usually to deal with crimes/wars. This means he would be fighting of criminals including mandalorians however a mandalorian is nothing compared to the skill and power of a Jedi especially a Jedi Master however Dooku was taught by Yoda and was Yoda's last apprentice this obviously means he was very well trained as Yoda is possibly the most powerful Jedi of this Era apart from Anakin Skywalker.

Lightsaber Combat: Dooku studied Form II: Makashi a Jedi fighting form that worked on footwork coupled with precise strikes. Dooku would eventually master this Form of Lightsaber Combat and was noted to be the most talented duelist of this form. Dooku would also go on to train General Grievous the famed Jedi Killer of the Clone Wars Era it is worth noting that General Grievous was trained in all Lightsaber forms and yet could never best Dooku no matter what form he used even Makashi's supposed counter Djem.

To see Dooku's skill with Makashi just watch this video of all of Dooku's fights in the Clone Wars.
https://www.youtube.com...

Experience: Dooku is far my experienced than Mace could ever hope to be not only was Dooku one of the eldest members of the Jedi Council but he was sent with other Jedi to fight before the Clone Wars which already gives him an advantage in combat. When Dooku left the order and formed the C.I.S [Confederacy Of Independent Systems] Dooku faced many Jedi even Dark Jedi and he always came out on top.

Force Abilities: Dooku is one of the most intelligent force users and is way more experienced than Mace for example Dooku is a Sith Sorcerer which requires you to be more connected with the force. Dooku can be seen using his force abilities when necessary using force lightning just at the right moment to throw an enemy off guard or force them to submit.

Worthy Notes:

Windu's dueling style is Form VII known as Vaapad which allows him to draw power from the Darkside. This is why he was able to put up such a decent fight against Palpatine however Dooku always remains calm in battle never letting his emotions getting the better of him making Vaapad useless as Mace would have nothing to draw his power from.

Dooku may be old but has kept his calm against agressive duelist such as Anakin Skywalker and Savage Oppress it is also worth noting that just single hits from Savage was enough to send Dooku to other sides of rooms yet even after facing Oppress he was still able to take on Asajj Ventress besting her and almost ending her life.

I await Con's argument.
GoogooGaga

Con

Windu is younger, fitter and faster. Windu has enough roomk on his handle to both hold it onehanded and two hadned whereas Dooku's is specificlaly designed for one-handed holding making him weaker than Windu when it comes to close-combat.

Both are mentally adept at fighting so the fight won't be won by one outsmarting the other; it will be won by the one who tires out last and doesn't make a fatal error by slipping up before that.

Windu is simply too strong for Dooky physically. The reason Anakin lost to Dooku despite being younger and fitter is that unlike Windu, Anakin isn't brilliant at actual saber fighting, his strength lies in force manipulation which is why he got bored of the light side and their restrictions on strangling and electric force. Windu is simply the best at overall war strategy.

Source: http://starwars.wikia.com...
The following are true based on that source:

1) Windu was the first of the entire Jedi masterminds to realize Palapatine had turne don them and immediatley sought to act on it and if it hadn' tbeen for Anakin's betrayal he would have succeede din doing so.

2) Windu is one of the best psycho-analysis based fighters there is. He analyses the enemy's psyche and fights based on what he can gather of how they think. For instance he said to Padme "You know, m'lady, that Count Dooku was once a Jedi. He couldn't assassinate anyone. It's not in his character." in Clone Wars because he knows Dooku to have a strong preference for drawing out fights and never finishign his enemy off as he's too kind hearted to so do. Windu knows the weakness of almost any enemy and with Palapatine he knew he simpyl ha to provoke him to electocute innto his lighsaber (which actually helped power it if anything) and was about to win the fight had Anakin not surprise attacked him.

3) From Jango Fett to pretty much any enemy who is fit and able to maanevre in battlefield, Windu has either slain them or masterminded their demise by his orders (which are sometimes seen as Yoda's orders as the two closely collaborate before making any order independent of the other).

Windu is very intellectual, more than the 'old and wise' Yoda to be honest. Windu was just the quieter one of the pair and let Yoda take the limelight. The two masterminded the entire Jedi order for many years and Windu was a very 'do first talk later' type of leader, which perhaps was his downfall as he simply tried to kill Palpatine instead of warning the others while Yoda was mroe of a 'think and talk and then do afterwards' or he'd probably put it as 'first think, later talk.'

Windu is a healthy 30-or-so year old black male (age not stated but judged by his looks). It's possible he's much older, around Yoda's age, but has used the force to hinder aging. On the other hand Dooku is a very old white male. I only mention race as it's known that blacks have slightly better baseline athletic skills and endurance than other races for reasons including denser skeletons and proportionally larger organs (http://www.popularsocialscience.com...).
Debate Round No. 2
Knaveslayer99

Pro

Thank you Con for posting your argument I will now make my Counter-Argument

"Dooku's is specificlaly designed for one-handed holding making him weaker than Windu when it comes to close-combat." - Con

This is false Dooku's blade can be wielded double handed however because of Makashi he wields it with on hand in order to make the dueling form more effective.

"Windu is simply too strong for Dooky physically. The reason Anakin lost to Dooku despite being younger and fitter is that unlike Windu, Anakin isn't brilliant at actual saber fighting, his strength lies in force manipulation " - Con

This is also false although Windu may be stronger that doesn't mean Dooku can't withstand his attack if you look at the video. https://www.youtube.com... You can see a much older Anakin using his rage against Dooku and although Dooku is pressured he remains calm and is easily able to counter Anakin's assault by using the force. Anakin is also a very renowned Duelist as he is a Djem Duelist and considered to be one of the very best in his fight against Obi-Wan Kenobi if Obi-Wan had not moved the fight around by changing it's location he would've easily been overpowered and killed by Anakin the only reason Anakin killed Dooku was because Dooku could not handle the assault of two skilled Jedi that being Obi-Wan and Anakin.

"Both are mentally adept at fighting so the fight won't be won by one outsmarting the other; it will be won by the one who tires out last and doesn't make a fatal error by slipping up before that."

I agree with you up to a certain point however Dooku is far superior when it comes to Knowledge and Experience as I stated while Dooku was a Jedi he was often tasked with going to different systems and fighting. He has also been a Jedi for far longer than Mace and also trained Qui Gon Jinn another very powerful Jedi. Dooku has been able to fend off multiple Jedi Masters and Sith at the same time. He has fought and killed plenty of Jedi Knights and has even bested Anakin at certain points also worth noting that Strength doesn't have much to do with this battle considering even after being knocked across his ship's bridge twice by Savage Oppress he was still able to escape and then straight after that fight which was Ventress and Savage against him. He was able to fight Ventress and best her all without tiring from the battle.

"1) Windu was the first of the entire Jedi masterminds to realize Palapatine had turne don them and immediatley sought to act on it and if it hadn' tbeen for Anakin's betrayal he would have succeede din doing so." - Con

This is false and true while Mace suspected something was wrong because Palpatine didn't return his emergency powers it was Anakin that found out Palpatine was a Sith Lord and as we can see in the movie Mace is surprised by this knowledge.

"In Clone Wars because he knows Dooku to have a strong preference for drawing out fights and never finishign his enemy off as he's too kind hearted to so do." - Con

This is so incorrect Dooku has killed plenty of Jedi and has soon no mercy this is evident when he goes to end Ventress's life and in the Son of Dathomir when he plunges his saber through you can read that issue here and keep in min that Comic is canon.

http://www.readcomics.tv...

Also worth noting is that Dooku is also good at psycho-analysis this is evident due to the fact he was able to train Grievous in every type of Saber Combat.

"Palapatine he knew he simpyl ha to provoke him to electocute innto his lighsaber (which actually helped power it if anything) and was about to win the fight had Anakin not surprise attacked him."

If you read the novelization of Revenge Of The Sith you will see that Palpatine had the ability to kill all the Jedi masters in that very room due to his speed however he wanted to test Mace's Vaapad and see how strong Mace truly was so Palpatine held back and used his anger to strengthen Mace's Vaapad. In a fight with Dooku as I stated in my first argument Vaapad fails as Dooku never shows any true rage or anger when dueling and as for that last part surprised attacked him this is true but i believe this is why Mace loses it is because he is simply to wild with his attacks I believe Mace will leave himself open to a full fledged attack giving Dooku the chance to thrust his saber through Mace's chest.

"Windu is a healthy 30-or-so year old black male (age not stated but judged by his looks). It's possible he's much older, around Yoda's age, but has used the force to hinder aging."

Mace is not much older as simply hindering aging by the force is never truly a Lightside ability and has not been figured out yet which is evident by Darth Plaguesis who tried to become Immortal and Palpatine who in the books tried to finish what Plaguesis started as they both wanted to implement the Rule Of One rather than the Rule Of Two.

As I have stated Dooku is more experienced and just as fast thanks to the force he was able to hold off Anakin multiple times even though Anakin was during power from his rage which only increased his strength. Dooku also uses the force in a much better way than Mace who uses it for straight forward attacks, Dooku often uses the force to throw off his opponent in the Son Of Dathomir Dooku was able to withstand Mother Talzin's lightning eventually getting help from Sidious himself and it is stated that Mother Talzin is just as strong as Sidious hence why Sidious and Dooku viewed her as a threat.

Dooku's dueling style Makashi is fully mastered by Dooku and as you can see Dooku is able to block assaults from Anakin with one hand even when Anakin is on top of him using his rage. He can also easily dodge lightsaber attacks without even needing to block once again evident by that video source. While Mace may be younger and stronger Dooku is simply more experience and smarter he would either try to throw Mace off with a force attack or simply wait for Mace to make a foolish mistake. While Mace is powerful he is just not as smart, experienced or talented as Dooku is, Dooku has shown us time and time again that despite being hold he can easily keep going and battle through it.

Thank you Con for your points I will now await your rebuttal.

Sources:
http://www.readcomics.tv...
http://starwars.wikia.com...
http://starwars.wikia.com...
http://starwars.wikia.com...

Book Sources:
Revenge Of The Sith
http://www.readcomics.tv...
GoogooGaga

Con

Your links are literally the same as what I can use so sources vote shouldn't be given based on this nonsense.

Windu has more physical endurance than Dooku as his body is fitter as opposed the frail one of Dooku. You keep saying 'Dooku doesn't get angry' but electric force and strangling force both imply the user is furious with their opponent which is what motivates that form of the force.

Windu is physically fit and mentally capable of maintaining stability throughout the fight. Dooku's old frail body can't keep up and as the fight drags on Dooku's 'equal capability' will become worthless as his body tires.

Windu isn't just a good soldier, the man was a general and knows strategy of war whethee it's 20 vs 20
or 1v1.
Debate Round No. 3
Knaveslayer99

Pro

My Links are not the exact same as I have links to Comics and Book sources and even a Youtube Link showing us multiple duels Dooku has fought in all of which are canon so I have not just got Wikia sources sadly Wikia sources are the only sources you can really get on the internet with both Canon and Non-Canon facts.

Conclusion: The reason I believe Count Dooku can best Mace Windu in a battle is due to Dooku's skill as a duelist as he is a master of Makashi and Mace's dueling form Vaapad fails to be effective against Dooku as Dooku doesn't let his anger or hate show in battle he always remains calm and collected. Mace is to wild with his attacks and leaves himself open which in Revenge Of The Sith you see this when Anakins cut's his arm off opponents that usually use wide swings fail against Makashi specialist because of their skill at precise strikes.

Vaapad for those who do not know it is the 7th dueling form in the Star Wars Universe which is an aggressive form that draws from their opponents hate and anger. If you watch the Youtube link I posted in my first argument you will see that Dooku always remains calm and collected never letting his emotions take full advantage of him. This Battle has also been discussed by famous Star Wars Youtubers who agree with my opinion that Dooku would come out on top. Mace is just to wild and under experienced when it comes to fighting Dooku who has had the pleasure of fighting plenty of Jedi and has been sent on missions to fight criminals and such long before the Clone Wars plus Dooku uses the force a lot more than Mace using it to often through his opponents off and I can see this working against Mace.. Thus I believe Dooku would triumph over a long hard fight with Mace due to Mace's wild swings and his lack of force attacks compared to Dooku.

Sources:
https://www.youtube.com...
http://starwars.wikia.com...
http://starwars.wikia.com...
http://starwars.wikia.com...

Book Sources:
Revenge Of The Sith
http://www.readcomics.tv...
GoogooGaga

Con

MAce Windu lost to Anakin because he thought he was on his side, that's a totally irrlevant fight.

Mace Windu's 'vapaad' not working on Dooku is only true if Dooku doens't dare to use electric or strangle force which he has many times done.

Saying someone's superpower won't work well in a fight isn't the same as saying they will lose it. Windu doens't need Vapaad to win, he is stronger and has better reflexes as well as endurance.
Debate Round No. 4
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by ThisIsMyUsername333 4 months ago
ThisIsMyUsername333
Pro may have just changed my mind...
Posted by ThisIsMyUsername333 4 months ago
ThisIsMyUsername333
Never mind, Debate.org just hates vowels with accents.
Posted by ThisIsMyUsername333 4 months ago
ThisIsMyUsername333
Oops, meant to type touch".
Posted by ThisIsMyUsername333 4 months ago
ThisIsMyUsername333
Touch", touch".

But then again, Chrisotpher Lee has never had a Big Kahuna Burger, has he?
Posted by Knaveslayer99 4 months ago
Knaveslayer99
No he hasn't but Samuel L. Jackson has never been Dracula, Saruman or Count Dooku and I doubt he fought in World War II :3
Posted by ThisIsMyUsername333 4 months ago
ThisIsMyUsername333
I shouldn't have to ask. What's in your wallet?
Posted by ThisIsMyUsername333 4 months ago
ThisIsMyUsername333
@Knaveslayer99 This may be true, but Christopher Lee has never been in a Capital One commercial, has he?
Posted by Knaveslayer99 4 months ago
Knaveslayer99
:P Fair enough :3 Samuel L. Jackson may be awesome but he is no legend when compared to Sir Christopher Lee.
Posted by ThisIsMyUsername333 4 months ago
ThisIsMyUsername333
I'm not too familiar with Star Wars lore, but for the sake of Samuel L. Jackson, I'd have to say Mace Windu.
No votes have been placed for this debate.