The Instigator
Calyn
Pro (for)
Tied
3 Points
The Contender
GarretKadeDupre
Con (against)
Tied
3 Points

Cow milk is superior to Soy Milk.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/26/2013 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,884 times Debate No: 42954
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (0)
Votes (1)

 

Calyn

Pro

Resolution: Cow milk is superior to Soy Milk.

This seems to be a giant debate over the value of Soy in the bodybuilding community as well as in the average population.

I have come to bring us from the chains of our Soy overlords :)

1. No direct plagiarism

2. No intentional fallacious arguments

3. General Debate etiquette

4. Have fun! No exceptions :)

Violation of the rules will result in a 7 point forfeit.
GarretKadeDupre

Con

I accept.

I will be arguing that Soy Milk is superior to Cow Milk.
Debate Round No. 1
Calyn

Pro

I thank my opponent for accepting this challenge to debate, I think this will be an enlightening experience for us both.

I will be taking the position that Milk superior to Soy Milk today. I will explain why Cow milk is superior to Soy Milk via a series of contentions in this logically sound argument:

1. Superior means to be better or of greater quality or importance.
2. Cow's Milk has greater nutritional value then Soy Milk.
3. Cow's Milk costs less.
4. Therefore(from 2-3), Cow's Milk is superior to Soy Milk

1.
The first premise is self-explanatory and is taken for granted via the definition of Superior. We can obtain the definition from Merriam-Webster Dictionary but I cross-referenced other dictionaries to check other definitions. They seemed to vary a bit on their definition so I took the two most common words, quality and importance. Furthermore, this is supported by our intuitive notion of what being superior means. Generally when we think of something being superior, we mean that the thing in question is better than something else in some way.

2.
I am imagine that this will be the major point of contention so I want to make a few things clear:

We should be using USDA standards for Soy Milk and Cow's Milk as specific brands are bound to vary(I should clarify I am using their official food reports from both). I mean if I select the carb and fat free Soy Milk from shelves then obviously it will have a different caloric composition than a Silk or the USDA official statistics. Also via the milk consumption statistics at the USDA Agricultural Marketing Service, 11-28-13, the most common milk drunk by Americans is 2%. I couldn't find statistics from other countries, therefore I will use the nutrition facts from 2% even though I could argue from the perspective of whole milk and still win.

When comes to fat, Soy Milk certainly does has the advantage for fat in both overall fat and saturated fat, this is not in question. What I am going to question is the value behind this, I don't think that the higher fat quantity is what really makes us fat. I will attempt to prove this intuitively as well as empirically. First, intuitively think about the classic unhealthy foods for example the cheesy puff, according to Calories Count About for one serving the cheesy puff has only 5 grams of fat which is about equivalent to a glass of Soy Milk. Why is it so bad then? The carbohydrates. The carbs in Cheesy puffs is what makes it so fattening, and the type of carbs that it is, namely glucose. This can be applied to Cake, Soda, etc.

Next, let's move to Calcium now generally speaking Soy Milk's are not fortified with Calcium. Only certain brands are and they generally cost even more than regular soy milk. The USDA recognizes this in it's statistics. Soy Milk only gives you 6% of your daily value of Calcium while Cow's Milk provides 29%. That's nearly a 500% difference! Why is this important? Well, it's important because we have group of people called senior citizens who need cheap sources of calcium to help fight off many diseases such osteoporosis.
Just staying in the realm of Calcium, Cow's Milk provides more in terms of Vitamin B-12, Vitamin A, and Potassium.

Soy Milk not only has more carbs per serving than Cow's Milk(15g vs 12g) it has a worse quality of sugar than Cow's Milk does. See when nutritionist's take about Carbs being bad for you they referring to simple sugars like glucose, the kind of sugar found in Soy Milk, because they are hard to digest. However, they are not referring to carbs with a low glycemic index, like lactose(the kind of sugar in Cow's Milk).
Now some argument might be made to the effect of some people are allergic to Lastose but some people are allergic to Soy and their is no fix for that. You can get Lactose free milk or take a supplement Lastase enzyme.

Now the next point I want to make is on the subject of Protein. The word Protein comes from the greek and means of first importance, I would refer the judges to the definition I provided in premise one of superior. Not only does Cow's Milk have more protein(8 vs 3 grams) it's protein of a higher quality. Casein and Whey Protein are the most frequently proteins used by bodybuilders, they are animal proteins as well so they are a complete protein and contain all of the branch chain amino acids. Soy however, is a plant protein and generally incomplete protein's that need to be supplemented with something else. Furthermore, Whey and Casein have higher Biological Value than Soy does. Soy Protein has 74, Whey has 104, and Casein has 77.

In fact according to a study done by Nutrition Metabolism, dieters who increased their protein intake by 30 percent had lost about 11 pounds over a 12 week period. Eat more protein, get leaner. Cow's Milk may have more fat but the protein will help us lose weight anyway.

3.

Cow Milk tends to cost less than Soy Milk by a lot. For example, for a half-gallon of Soy Milk(according to Forbes) it costs from 3.99-4.29. This is for a half-gallon of Soy milk people! For entire gallon of Cow's Milk I can get the same price! Given people use Soy Milk for pretty much the same purposes and ends as Cow's Milk it's absolutely frivolous to pay twice as much for the same amount. Especially since 9.1% of the population drink a gallon of Milk a day from the mentioned Milk Consumption statistics. It would absolutely ridiculous to spend 8 dollars a day when you can spend half that budget.

4. This follows from deduction/induction. I have shown via definitions,intuition, scientific studies, and statistics that Cow's Milk is healthier and cheaper, and therefore is superior to Soy Milk. I didn't even need to go into the testosterone lowering effects of Soy or the detrimental effect of Soy on the digestive system.

Please Vote Pro today :)
GarretKadeDupre

Con

  • 1. Superior means to be better or of greater quality or importance.”
Something we can both agree one.
  • 2. Cow's Milk has greater nutritional value then Soy Milk.”
According to your own source, the USDA, both Cow's Milk & Soy Milk have the same proportion of protein at 8g per cup.2,3 Soy Milk also has dietary fiber, which is required for healthy digestion. Your Cow's Milk has none.

Everyone knows that iron is required for strong bones. Guess what? Soy Milk has over THIRTY times the amount of iron that Cow's Milk has!2,3

Soy Milk even has 3x more Folate than Cow's Milk. Why is Folate important, you ask? Well, good sir, it's an essential nutrient, which means that without it, YOU DIE. Folate is needed for healthy blood cells and prevents anemia.5

  • 3. Cow's Milk costs less.”

That's because it is of lesser quality and importance. Cheaper things are less superior to more expensive ones. This is common sense.

  • 4. Therefore(from 2-3), Cow's Milk is superior to Soy Milk.”

False, as I've already explained and will elaborate on.

  • When comes to fat, Soy Milk certainly does has the advantage for fat in both overall fat and saturated fat, this is not in question. I don't think that the higher fat quantity is what really makes us fat. Why is it so bad then? The carbohydrates.”

That argument fails before it even starts. Fat people are fat because they have a lot of... fat! Not carbohydrates. Nobody calls people with a lot of carbohydrates... “carbo” or anything like that. Besides, a popular bodybuilding practice is to load up on carbohydrates (read: consume a LOT of carbohydrates) both before and after a workout. Carbohydrate loading is even done before bodybuilding exhibitions!

If carbohydrates were so evil, bodybuilders wouldn't be eating so much of them. Allow me to quote Arnold Schwarzenegger himself:

I was carb backloading before it was hip”4

And here is an unflattering photo of Arnold devouring pure carbohydrates:



FAT is the problem, not carbohydrates, and your beloved Cow's Milk has more fat than the Soy Milk you attempt to vilify.

I will now initiate my offensive.

Most people are lactose intolerant.1 This means that Cow's Milk makes them sick, makes their farts stink, causes bloating, diarrhea, and a host of other nasty problems.

Soy Milk can be drunk by everybody, even people with lactose intolerance, with 0 ill effects!

Soy Milk can also be drunk by vegetarians, as it isn't derived from animal products.

Cow's Milk cannot be argued superior if the majority of the world's population cannot even drink it without violating their beliefs or becoming physically ill!

  • I didn't even need to go into the testosterone lowering effects of Soy or the detrimental effect of Soy on the digestive system.”

Cow's Milk is worse for the digestive system than Soy Milk is. Also, the testosterone lowering effects of Soy help to prevent Roid-Rage6, which is known for causing violent crime. You don't hear about Soy Milk turning people into killers, do you? Didn't think so.

Cow's Milk is not superior to Soy Milk.

1http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

2http://ndb.nal.usda.gov...

3http://ndb.nal.usda.gov...

4http://www.hollywood.com...

5http://ods.od.nih.gov...

6http://www.foxnews.com...

Debate Round No. 2
Calyn

Pro

Explanatory Power and Burden of Proof

Because no explicit of burden of proof was stated in the rules and neither me or my opponent claimed the other had burden of proof, we must assume a shared burden. This is only strengthened by the fact that my opponent does attempt to show the superiority of Soy milk via his offensive. Therefore, considering his argument versus mine, we must consider the merits of it as an argument itself. My argument naturally follows to it's conclusion albeit with an implicit premise and therefore my argument has great explanatory power, that is, if my argument hold strong no matter if my opponent likes it or any one does we have to concede the argument.

My opponents argument however, has no explanatory power at all. Even if we grant all the premises he brings forward(which we will not be doing if you were wondering), it doesn't naturally follow that Cow's Milk isn't superior. At best it shows that Soy Milk has some advantages which I in fact never argued wasn't the case. My opponent offensive therefore really doesn't hurt my case at all, but nor does it strengthen his own.

Hence even if you say my argument is completely invalid at best you should award us a tie in the arguments portion of the debate.

The Protein Issue

While I was mistaken on the protein portion of the contest, it was because of an oversight of serving size, in which I deeply apologize. However, my opponent drops my portion of the argument about biological values and different types of protein and therefore concedes that even if they have the same amount of protein, Cow's Milk is still far superior in types of protein.

He also never addresses the fact that Soy is a plant protein and therefore not a complete protein. I will consider this dropped.

The Vitamin Issue

So I mention 4 vitamins are essential for the growth and development of human beings as well as the maintaining of a healthy lifestyle and my opponent mentions two. Furthermore, Vitamin B-12 and Vitamin A are both essential nutrients and without them you will die. So his folate argument really falls short here. Furthermore, there are many many sources of folate. You don't need Soy Milk at all to get folate. Anyway you look at it, four is still more than two.

The Price Tag

My opponent breezes past this point but he fails to say what he is saying. I would ask my opponent, are cigarettes of higher quality and importance(emphasis) than say his Soy Milk. Because it would seem that it costs more. We could also ask if a Big Mac is better Quality than Soy Milk. Quality isn't determined by market value. Quality is determined by comparing characteristics and benefits of one thing over another, while the market is determined by what people are willing to pay for. While some things that are more expensive are of high quality, it does not follow that everything of a higher price is of higher quality. To illustrate this point I will further elaborate, a experiment was preformed by a youtube channel called Brad Hensen did a taste test of In-N-Out versus Five Guys. There was obviously slight bias here, since it was out of California nonetheless the In-N-Out fries taste test was near even with In-N-Out only winning by one point. When it came to burgers however, In-N-Out blew Five Guys out of the water with a score of 18 to 1. However, the price of one In-N-Out burger was much much less than Five Guys(about 5.39 versus 3.80).

So my opponents argument is invalid and my premise stands to support the argument.

Most people are not lactose intolerant

Anyone who clicks on his source will see even if you read the entire case study it never ever says that most people are lactose intolerant, what the case study shows is that if you eat excess lactose foods( 33 grams a day!!) you will suffer negative effects. There are only 5 grams of Lactose in a serving size of Cow's Milk. So unless you drinking 6 glasses of Milk a day, then this study is irrelevant. Another problem with the study was that it was only 21 days long and the short term effects were only shown. We don't know if there bodies would have adapted in the long term to this diet. If you change your diet dramatically in anyway you bound to have some negative effects. This includes with Soy.

My opponent is being dishonest when he says that Soy Milk can be drunk by everybody. There two distinct groups that cannot drink Soy that can drink Cow's Milk. People who are allergic to Soy. Plus people who are bodybuilder because it lowers testosterone and raises estrogen. This is because it reduces muscles gains.

And even if that were true that most people couldn't drink it, it would be irrelavent because we could only compare these two things in the realm of people who could drink both.

Also steroid rage, only applies to the small number of people who take steroids and even then it's never been scientifically proven that steroid rage actually exists. The only cases of evidence are anecdotal not scientifically studied claims.

Carbs versus Fats

I would like point out he never argues aganist my points explicitly for carbs being worse he just says because it sounds like fat is what makes us fat therefore it must be what makes us fat. Obviously this is a vast oversimplification and he consequenitally drops my carbs portion of the case, so he must concede Soy Milk does contain more carbs even if he doubts the importance which I will explain is a mistake below.

My opponent says bodybuilders eat tons of carbs. While many bodybuilders do eat many carbs and no one would argue they don't , however they are referring to complex carbohydrates with a high glycemic index. My opponent just completely drops the point about carbs and only tries to punish me on fats. Nonetheless, just because nobody says "your a carbo" doesn't prove anything as my opponent fails to understand.

It is laughable that they show the California governor instead of the bodybuilder Schwarzenegger to support their point.

A analysis of 21 studies published in The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition found that "a diet filled with saturated fat was not associated with increased risk.... [ of coronary heart disease, stroke or coronary vascular disease]". The problem with carbohydrates is that it's very easy to binge on them because they satisfy us often more than the fatty counterparts, for example cheesy puffs versus pork chops(pork has more fat, cheesy puffs more carbs).

Fat is actually the preferred fuel of the human body. Evolutionarily speaking, we have been eatting fat heavy fat foods for thousands of years and we only(relatively) recently started eating all these carbs. I mean meat naturally contains a decent amount of fat. Another problem with carbs is that they are hard to digest in comparison to Fat.

If you are still doubting my position, think about this. We absolutely need fat to survive, lipids are absolutely required for making ATP while the body can produce it's own glucose. In fact, carbohydrates are the only macronutrients we can completely cut from our diet and be completely fine, eliminate fats or protein and eventually you will die from a nutrient deficiency.

I thank my opponent as well as the judges for a good debate and hope the judges will vote Pro, Thank you.
GarretKadeDupre

Con

  • Because no explicit of burden of proof was stated in the rules and neither me or my opponent claimed the other had burden of proof, we must assume a shared burden. This is only strengthened by the fact that my opponent does attempt to show the superiority of Soy milk via his offensive.”

So I've taken some of your burden proof onto my own shoulders just because I provided both rebuttals and offensive arguments? That doesn't make sense. Your position is that Cow's Milk is superior to Soy Milk; I merely need to prove that Soy is at least equal to win this debate.

  • Hence even if you say my argument is completely invalid at best you should award us a tie in the arguments portion of the debate.”

So if your argument is completely invalid, and mine isn't, you deserve a tie? That makes even less sense!

  • I was mistaken on the protein portion of the contest”

Thank you.

  • However, my opponent drops my portion of the argument about biological values and different types of protein and therefore concedes that even if they have the same amount of protein, Cow's Milk is still far superior in types of protein.”

Both Cow's Milk and Soy's Milk contain all the EAAs and have individual traits thought to offer a unique advantage for muscle growth.1

  • He also never addresses the fact that Soy is a plant protein and therefore not a complete protein. I will consider this dropped.”

According to a 2009 paper called Soy: a complete source of protein,2Soybeans contain all of the essential amino acids necessary for human nutrition”. It goes on to clarify that Soy actually “is a complete source of protein”. (emphasis mine)

  • Furthermore, there are many many sources of folate. You don't need Soy Milk at all to get folate.”

And you don't need Cow's Milk at all to get any vitamins.

  • I would ask my opponent, are cigarettes of higher quality and importance(emphasis) than say his Soy Milk. Because it would seem that it costs more. We could also ask if a Big Mac is better Quality than Soy Milk.”

That's the fallacy of False Analogy; comparing a Big Mac with Soy Milk is like comparing apples and oranges. I compared two types of milk, and it's a perfectly valid analogy. People pay more for Soy Milk because it's superior to Cow's Milk.

I won't waste time rebutting your YouTube experiment, since you already did that by clarifying that it was biased.

  • Most people are not lactose intolerant[...] Anyone who clicks on his source will see even if you read the entire case study it never ever says that most people are lactose intolerant”

Sorry, I must've cited the wrong source. Here is the source I meant to site:

http://ghr.nlm.nih.gov...

You will find that this government page agrees that most people are, indeed, lactose-intolerant, as the number of those with reduced lactose digesting ability is “65 percent of the human population”.

The Nottingham Institute of Genetics backs this up, stating that “Most people cannot drink milk as adults without the symptoms of lactose intolerance”.4

  • My opponent is being dishonest when he says that Soy Milk can be drunk by everybody. There two distinct groups that cannot drink Soy that can drink Cow's Milk. People who are allergic to Soy.”

Overall, soy is well tolerated”.2 Furthermore, according to this graph from EuroPrevall, an EU-funded project about food allergy, it's clear that far more people are allergic to Cow's Milk than Soy Milk5:


  • Plus people who are bodybuilder because it lowers testosterone and raises estrogen. This is because it reduces muscles gains.”

That's a myth. Soy Milk has never been shown to reduce muscle gains. Also, you are completely ignoring the fact that Cow's Milk has estrogen too. According to the Harvard News6:

Among the routes of human exposure to estrogens, we are mostly concerned about cow's milk, which contains considerable amounts of female sex hormones”. The paper goes on to say that Dairy “accounts for 60 percent to 80 percent of estrogens consumed.” So most of the estrogen that you are worried about actually comes from Cow's Milk, not Soy Milk.

  • [Con] must concede Soy Milk does contain more carbs even if he doubts the importance which I will explain is a mistake”

I do not doubt the importance of the presence of healthy carbs in Soy Milk, which Cow's Milk does not have.

That's because, as I already pointed out in the previous round, Soy Milk has fiber, a type of carbohydrate needed for healthy digestion.7 Cow's Milk doesn't have any!

  • My opponent says bodybuilders eat tons of carbs. While many bodybuilders do eat many carbs and no one would argue they don't , however they are referring to complex carbohydrates with a high glycemic index.”

No, they are not only referring to complex carbohydrates, and you've given no reason for anyone to believe that's the case. Besides, I already showed a picture of Arnold Schwarzenegger consuming a massive pizza, which is composed almost entirely of simple carbohydrates with a high glycemic index!

  • It is laughable that they show the California governor instead of the bodybuilder Schwarzenegger to support their point.”

It's laughable that you think that Governor Schwarzenegger and bodybuilder Schwarzenegger aren't the same person. Mr. Schwarzenegger is still bodybuilding, as evidenced by this photo taken this year8:


  • Another problem with carbs is that they are hard to digest in comparison to Fat.”

Completely wrong. “Almost all carbohydrates[...] are the quickest to digest and absorb […] Fats take the most time to fully digest and absorb because they are the largest molecules”.9

Cow's Milk is not superior to Soy Milk. Vote Con!

1http://www.dartmouthsports.com...

2http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

3http://usatoday30.usatoday.com...

4European Journal of Human Genetics (2005) 13, 267–269. doi:10.1038/sj.ejhg.5201297

5http://www.europrevall.org...

6http://www.news.harvard.edu...

7http://www.sciencedaily.com...

8http://www.shockmansion.com...

9http://woman.thenest.com...

Debate Round No. 3
No comments have been posted on this debate.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by yay842 3 years ago
yay842
CalynGarretKadeDupreTied
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Total points awarded:33 
Reasons for voting decision: good job to the both of you, much effort, much doge