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henryajevans
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The Contender
Cowboy0108
Con (against)
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/10/2013 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 725 times Debate No: 37574
Debate Rounds (5)
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henryajevans

Pro

I saw you do this debate with someone else, and I thought it may be an interesting exercise. We'll have the same rules as that debate, only I'll include a section on foreign relations. First round is a general overview with some domestic policies

My country is called Metropotamia, after my favourite proposition by Thomas Jefferson, and essentially forms the landmass of France, Germany, Czech Republic Spain, Denmark, Norway, Finland, Sweden Slovenia, Switzerland, Austria, Belgium, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Italy, Ireland and the UK; so it's basically a Post-Napoleonic Superstate.

Capital city is Strasbourg, since it's centrally located and something of a hub.

All languages retained, though inter-region dialogue is in Esperanto. Esperanto is taught in schools as well as current national languages.

The System of Government is a decentralised democracy, a federal parliamentary republic. The country is divided up into the 'regionoj' (regions) of ĉefurbo (Greater Strasbourg), Francia (France, Andorra and Monaco), Britannia (The UK & Ireland), Frisia (Belgium, the Netherlandsand Luxembourg), Hispania (Spain, Portugal and Gibraltar), Germania (Germany, Denmark and Czech Republic), Scandinavia (Norway, Sweden and Finland), Alpania (Austria, Liechtenstein and Switzerland) and Italia (Italy, Slovenia and Malta). Each is divided up into Napoleonic-sized departments, with the county systems in the UK & Ireland acting. The departments are known as 'komunumoj' (communes), each with a director, called a 'membro de la parlamento' (Member of Parliament) and is divided up into four 'Distriktoj' (Districts), each represented by a 'Distrikto Reprezentanto' (District Representative). The District Representatives take part in the regional government, based in Madrid, Rome, Paris, Antwerp, Manchester, Leipzig, Stockholm and Vienna for their respective regions. The Members of Parliament go straight to Strasbourg for government meetings via the high-speed train lines that exist between the capitals of all regions and significant urban communes. The Central Bank of Metropotamia governs monetary policy, and issues guidelines to the regional governments for fiscal policy.

Each commune is designed to be part of a 'Sindikato' (Union) of communes that has one principle export group, such as the Union of the Loire, which is all of the communes that lie in the Loire Valley, has a principle export of wine. This should cover most of the goods, and the goods not produced can be imported from the rest of the world.

There is a very limited private sector, one that is mostly concentrated into small to intermediate-sized businesses and is tightly regulated. There is no trading of stock, and no firm may have more than ten percent market power. The state provide universal healthcare, education, all transport except for cars, energy completely through wind, solar and hydro, heating for homes, all roads, museums, art galleries, telecommunication and fibre optic broadband all free of charge and available to all citizens.

There are no private schools, and university education is provided for free.

The government owns all industries apart from a few privately owned industries controlled by the Ministry of Enterprise, which decides which businesses are better privatised, and when to nationalise firms by purchasing it at market value. People still own property and land, but inheritance is taxed at a 99% rate above the equivalent of "500,000 (about $750,000) in the currency of Metropotamia, the Valuto, divided up into 100 Cendoj. Social Housing is made available for any citizen in need, with an ensured excess stock of 50,000 houses to cope with demand shocks. Services provided by the government are continuously reviewed and upgraded to ensure the best provisions for all.

Each citizen receives a Citizen's Income of the equivalent of "6,000 (about $9,000), with "3,000 (about $5000) per child unconditionally, which guarantees subsistence, as the only essential overheads are food and clothing.. Work is intended to supplement income, and salaries start at the equivalent of "8,000 (About $12,000) on top of the Citizen's Income, or a "6 (about $9.50) minimum wage. This is the only ethical way to guarantee that work is always better than welfare, and also encourages population growth.
Citizens unable to work receive a Citizen's income of the equivalent of "10,000, though it can vary depending on what their needs and means are.
Citizens over the age of seventy receive the State Pension of the equivalent of "7,500, in addition to their savings and work pension schemes.
The state always has spare capacity - partly to attract migrants, and partly to ensure the strength of trade unions.

A strictly secular society - no religious symbols to be worn in public spaces, no religious displays in public spaces, i.e. religious scenes in businesses or in public; and no religious advertising. No religions given tax-exempt status, religious law has no legal backing and no religion given priority over the other. No practices, such as baptism or circumcision, are to be performed on people unable to give informed consent.
On censuses, no religion or race is noted, and country of birth is something that is disregarded at immigration and customs.
Open doors immigration policy, for both economic migrants and asylum seekers. However, adult migrants who are still in their first year in the country are only entitled to the Citizen's income of a child until they are in a job earning at least "8,000 per year, and children are given credits to spend on food and clothing for them, to ensure that they are not unprovided for.

All drugs are legalised and regulated by the Ministry of Substances, as is alcohol and tobacco. Narcotics are purchasable with a substances account activated by fingerprint at a state-owned recreational pharmacy, which entitles each person to an amount for personal use similar to that in Portugal currently, once per week. Drugs are taxed heavily, meaning that their prices are as high as they currently are, but go through a quality control system to ensure that it is cut with non-harmful substances. Problem users can be blacklisted by the Ministry, and drug-related criminals are given free, compulsory rehabilitation. Drug dealing is still a crime. The minimum age for purchasing alcohol and cigarettes is sixteen, though consumption is legal from twelve.

Taxation is very high, so as to provide for the extensive social programmes, but is progressive. Income that is not Citizen's Income up to "8,000 is taxed at 10%, "15,000 is taxed at 15%, "20,000 at 20%, "35,000 at %40, 50,000 at 60%, "100,000 at 75% and above "200,000 at 85%. The government ensures there are no millionaires, but bear in mind that although these incomes seem low, most essential services are provided by the government, and all pay is spent on consumer goods and services. Inheritance tax is exempt on money and property worth less than "50,000; 50% on money and property worth under "500,000 and 99% on property worth more than that. There is no tax on domestically produced goods, but varying tariffs exist for some imports.

The consumption of fossil fuels is minimal, as the government owns the automotive industry and, thanks to increased investment in R&D, as well as the abolition of patents, manufactures driverless cars that use hydrogen fuel, and oil is used exclusively in plastics manufacturing. All oil comes from either the North Sea or from the Middle East, though it is limited due to the prevalence of the turning of coal into oil, and through the use of arboform

The foreign policy is a mixture of interventionist and isolationist, though strictly pacifist. Negotiation and mediation is key to the foreign policy, and the United Nations meets in Strasbourg. Metropotamia never involves itself militarily in the wars of others; instead, it hosts peace talks and gives humanitarian relief to civilians. Because of this pacifist foreign policy, terrorism is very rare, and no foreign intervention is needed. Most dictators are there as a result of western foreign policy rather than the people of their own country, and therefore by refusing to support dictatorial regimes, Metropotamia could ensure there are no dictators.

Spending on the military is minimal. The navy is stationed across the world, thanks to treaties with other countries that are receptive due to the dove foreign policy. It consists entirely of destroyers and patrol boats, which are there for anti-piracy operations, and to protect trade interests. The army is confined to a division in each regiono, and a large national guard/territorial army for security purposes only. The air force is limited to fighter jets, which are designed to deal with encroaching planes, and they have limited bombardment faculties to protect trade interests. There are no nuclear weapons, and there is only a domestic intelligence agency.

It is a highly technological society, as technology compensates for mankind's flaws, and allows society to progress. There are hydrogen-powered cars widespread, high-speed trains prevalent, and advanced medical procedures and nanotechnology. This ensures Metropotamia's global dominance in the market, as well as improving the standard of living for all citizens.
Cowboy0108

Con

I just copied and pasted most of my argument from my previous debate on the topic in which my opponent forfeited. Read my argument carefully as I have added some things and changed some others.

Please do not forfeit like the last guy I debated this same thing with.

The laws and general facts about the country involve my countries society, political structure and organization, and economy.

Our countries appear to be opposites. Ironically, mine is a free market monarchy and yours is a command economy with a democracy. This will be interesting.
Dixie
Laws:
1.Absolute freedom of speech
2.Absolute freedom of gun purchases, excludes rocket, bomb, missile, or other explosives
3.National religion is protestant Christianity, will not be a theocracy, but the government will be allowed to promote the religion
4.Freedom of occupation-person may work anywhere they want to, government does not determine jobs
5.FairTax( fairtax.org ) for details on this, basically it is a sales tax as the only system of taxation. Will not shift the tax burden onto the poor, go to the website to see how it specifically works.
6.Murder laws-any person who is on YOUR property may be shot, law does not apply in cases such as a little boy who goes to get the ball that rolled in your yard. If you are not in your property and you feel threatened, you may fire on the person. If he lives, you must pay the medical bills, if he dies, you do not have to do anything. You are not allowed to shoot anyone who is already on the ground.
7.No theft or destruction of property.
8.National dress code
a.Boys
i.No sagging
ii.No short shorts(more than three inches above the knee)
iii.No body piercings
iv.No visible tattoos that are bigger than a 7" diameter plate(no full body tattoos)
v.No sexual themes can be visible on clothing
b.Girls
i.Only ear piercings
ii.No visible tattoos that are bigger than a 7" diameter plate(no full body tattoos)
iii.No sexual themes can be visible on clothing
9.No abortion except in cases of the mother"s life being in immediate danger
10.Parents must raise their own children
a.Abandoned children"s parents will be jailed
b.No adoption
c.If parents cannot afford a child, they will have the baby, BOTH parents will be sterilized, family will be put in public housing in which food, clothing, shelter, etc. will be provided
d. If parents are abusive, both parents will be sterilized and the children will be dealt with on a case by case basis. I forsee however, that they will be put in a type of school that they do not leave and they are educated and sheltered there.
11.No racism allowed, employers can choose whoever they want to employ though

Penalties for violation of laws:
1.Be given the choice of:
a.Being starved for a month
b.Twenty lashes with a whip everyday for a week
c.Being branded on the forehead with their crime
2.In severe crimes
a.People will be branded on the forehead with the crime, receive twenty lashes everyday for a week, and will be put in a cage with nothing but water and the door will not be opened for two months.
Economy:
1.Mixed market, closer to free market though
2.Exports
a.Lumber, fruits, coffee, beef and beef products, sugar, oil, cars"
3.Imports
a.Will be limited to raw materials preferably. Desire to be as self dependent as possible
4.Keeps most oil for itself, manufactures own material, like cars, machinery, etc.
a.Exports only the surplus
5.Amazon will be largely cut down and replanted so that the trees are in neat rows and the trees produce fruit. Proper measures will be taken to ensure no desertification or erosion.
6.Surplus revenue will go towards the military (a strong military is desired), and infrastructure.
Government
1.Unique style, it will be a monarchy, it will have states in the country, and it will have districts within the states
2.All tax collection is within the districts
3.Sixty percent of district revenue goes to the state and fifteen percent of that goes to the country. This ensures a smaller central government.
4.Monarch makes decisions regarding the military, foreign policy, currency, and trade. Also appoints governors of the states and the governors appoint leaders of the district.
5.Monarch will be elected by the people after the previous monarch resigns or turns sixty. Minimum age for a monarch is thirty and they must have experience as a governor. Governors must have experience as head of a district.
6. The districts major responsibility is land grants and collecting of taxes. The states are in charge of most all the law making and decisions regarding taxes
Government in the economy
1. There will be private healthcare and healthcare provided by the government that must be paid for.
2. Retirement funding is not required but an optional retirement system will be offered by the government.
3. The government will offer a certain amount of free energy proportional to the size of the family living in a residence. All else will be paid for(energy is solely hydroelectric).
Demographics
1.90% white, 10% black
2.Male to female ration is approximately 1:1, but this is just an estimate, not a rule.
3.Immigration is extremely limited
4.Population is approximately 100 million.
5. there will be a city population cap. No more than five hundred thousand people(this is about the size of Atlanta, GA) can live in one area classified as a city.
Technology and education
1.Technology will be most advanced in the military.
2.Medical technology will be invested in
3.Citizens will have simple technology. Will have computers with internet access, will not have smart phones. No social networking.
4.Education will teach logic and reasoning, history, simple mathematics, writing, debate, politics, and very basic science.
5.Specialization classes will be offered early in high school.
6.Colleges will be inexpensive and will be primarily technical/career based colleges.
7.Technology will not be overly influential in this society.
8. This country will pay for the college education for a person who chooses to major in a field that does not have an ideal number of employees. i.e. if the country needs doctors, medical school will be free. If the country needs people working with energy, college for that will be free.
Foreign relations
1. Most foreign relations will be military alliances.
2. My country will be as self dependent as possible. I plan to have it so that the primary, secondary, and tertiary sectors of the economy each employ about the same number of people. Imports will be, preferably, only raw materials that are not readily available in the country.
3. There will not be taxes paid on exports.
Location
1.The location of my country is ideal as it offers plenty of space for farmland, has ample arable land, offers plenty of room for industrialization, it also has mountain regions for mining.
Military
1. Powerful military
2. Extremely advanced technology
3. It is interventionist only if it is paid to intervene.
4. It will attack any country that poses that threatens us.
5. the military will spend no more than a year facing a country that it is paid to attack, two years for handling a threat, three years for handling an attack, and six months for handling a bad humanitarian issue.
This country's desires
1. This country does not desire to be an economic superpower.
2. This country wants to have a high quality of life that is virtually independent from the occurrences of the rest of the world.
3. This country wants to have the military power to be a military superpower and will assist allies in wars and ensure that countries would be too fearful of the military to attack us. This country wishes to offer military assistance to whichever side pays the most to us in cases in which we are neutral on an issue.
4. This country wishes to provide a life that is simple for the people through technology, but not dependent on technology.
Debate Round No. 1
henryajevans

Pro

We'll review each other's in the next round.

With regards to culture and fashion, there are no restrictions on them. Metropotamia would have a cultural setting similar to Weimar Germany, and there would be a rapid rate of cultural advancement in fine arts, literature, music and architecture. Fashion would be completely unregulated, other than the artisans, who work independently of the state, may produce and sell to state-owned outlets. Any person may wear whatever article of clothing they desire; though in the workplace, there would be a dress code. The state does not infringe upon a person's right to self-expression, unless that self-expression is harmful to others, so there would be no weapons allowed in public.

Gun control is tight, with a Ministry of Firearms controlling the flow of guns. People are permitted to have guns for sport, therefore automatic weapons, handguns, magazine-fed weapons, high-calibre and weapons designed for anti-personnel use. This would be restricted to shotguns and .22 rifles, and one would need to apply for a license to own one, demonstrating that it is required for their livelihood, such as a farmer or a gamekeeper. CCTV would come as a standard in every house, so in the event of an intruder, just cause for the use of deadly force must be put forward by the killer, with video evidence. The CCTV footage is completely private, an is only stored by the homeowner. In public, there are to be no firearms, or locking or fixed blades are permitted, so Swiss Army Knives are fine, since their blades have limited use in combat.

Adoption is permitted and managed by the state, with children's homes set up in every komunumo. Children who find themselves without parents, or who come from abusive backgrounds are fully provided for and coexist with children from other backgrounds at school and out of school.

The criminal justice system is based largely upon the Norwegian model. There are two categories - those who can be rehabilitated and the mentally ill. Criminals who can be rehabilitated, such as thieves, committers of manslaughter and gang members enter prisons for predetermined amounts of time, and while there are taught how to become productive members of society. They can perform jobs whilst in prison, all of which pay them the minimum hourly wage to ensure that they emerge with the skills and money necessary to reenter society. Each criminal is considered on a purely individual basis, and at the end of their sentence, they are subject to a review by a board, and have a probation period to ensure that they no longer need the assistance of the state. Criminals who cannot be rehabilitated are obviously suffering from a mental condition, be it kleptomania, schizophrenia or psychopathy, and are guaranteed free treatment in institutions. They are reviewed automatically every five years, though they can be reviewed before that if their psychiatrist recommends it. Once released, they are monitored for a year, and have to attend sessions of therapy until their psychiatrist ends the treatment. Institutionalising criminals has a maximum term of ten years sentenced, but they require approval before release, so the sentence can be repeated. Since most crime occurs due to social deprivation, the state's social programmes would reduce this considerably, and if an area has a high crime rate, the provincial government launches an inquiry and reports back on the findings, as well as proposals to reduce crime. Education with regard to substance abuse is heavily invested in, and due to the legalisation of drugs, there would be less drug-related crime and the dealers would lose their monopoly. Drug dealing and trafficking are both still illegal; drugs are not allowed on planes, in government buildings other than the pharmacies and in the workplace, and consumption is prohibited inside, similar to alcohol.

Abortion is legal before information about the child's gender or other irrelevant characteristics are disclosed to the parent, unless a serious disability or deformity is discovered in the foetus, or if the mother's life would be in danger. Before then, the mother may have a free, anonymous abortion in government clinics. Contraception is free for people under 25, as it helps people to advance their careers before having a family, and is subsidised for those above that age. Euthanasia is free and legal, if signed by a doctor and the patient, and the patient is capable of giving informed consent. If not, then the patient's close relatives or personal carer can grant or deny permission, though the doctor's signature is still required.

Racism, Religious Intolerance and Sexism is prevented via acts similar to the Race Relations Act, which prohibit employers from hiring or not hiring based on race, religion or gender, and there are regular probes to ensure that this is being applied. These come in the form of civil servants applying for positions and giving several fake applicants equal qualifications, though changing characteristics such as gender or race. This is normally identified through the names, and departments can be investigated and people reprimanded for their actions.

Education largely follows the Finnish model, with highly paid teachers, Montessori learning and a focus on developing critical thinking and reasoning from an early age. There are no uniforms, homework, exams, and students are judged based on coursework, practicals and references from their teachers. Compulsory education starts at the age of three, and continues until the age of eighteen. After that, they have several options, such as going straight into work, going into an apprenticeship or going to university. The application process starts at the beginning of the final year, and they are admitted based on their references, coursework and practical skills. They are granted the full citizen's income when they leave school, and students on courses that are needed are given extra income of up to the equivalent of "2,500 (about $4,000). In primary education, students are taught their regional language, be it English, German, French, Italian, Portuguese, Danish, Spanish, etc, Esperanto and one other regional language. Students that excel in languages can go to extra-curricular classes to learn a language from outside Metropotamia, such as Arabic, Russian or Chinese. Grades in languages are decided based on practicals, which essentially consist of conversations of varying difficulty that students have time to prepare for and can choose when in the year they are. There are all the classes that currently exist, and classes in dialectics and current affairs are added to timetables. Periods last for forty minutes, with a five minute break in between each one.

The national day is May Day, to commemorate the struggle of workers emancipating themselves, and the national anthem is La Internacio (The Internationale in Esperanto), but is only played at the May Day Parade, at the beginning of international sporting events and at the beginning of Parliament. It is a sort of anti-national anthem, telling the international proletariat that they are one, and that change does not come from above. It is perfect for the cultural unification of Metropotamia, and peacefully encourages democratic socialism across the world. The national motto is 'Libereco estas nur privilage etendita, krom se guis de ciuj', or 'Freedom is but privilege extended, unless enjoyed by all'; and the slogan of the ruling party in this multi-party democracy, the Party for Liberty and Equality, is 'Ne ekzistas libereco sen egaleco. Ne ekzistas egaleco sen libereco', or 'There is no freedom without equality. There is no equality without freedom.'

Elections are every five years without fail, so the government cannot call them when it suits it. There is proportional representation, with district councils being elected by the people and occupied by the people of the district. Another round of elections takes place in which people vote for the ruler of their commune, and the results of the two elections determine which party wins the provincial and regional elections, and eventually, the federal elections for who is president of Metropotamia. The Prime Minister is appointed by the president, and this is announced before the elections take place. Fiscal and monetary policy decisions are decided by a core of technocrats in the federal and regional governments, though spending is decided in a series of communal meetings which all residents of the commune are allowed to attend and make decisions on where to spend the money that is left over. The requirements for social, law enforcement and infrastructure spending are posted by the regional governments, and the excess is decided by the population. This means that the population can have a say on the decisions that directly affect it, but at the same time, some decision making is removed from them due to imperfect knowledge.

You give some more policies and then we'll assess each other's countries in R3.
Cowboy0108

Con

I pretty much went over all of my policies in R1, but I will compare the issues you addressed with how my country addresses it.
My country will have a national religion of Protestant Christianity. This does not restrict the practice of other religions or atheism, nor does it create a theocracy in any way. It does, however, all for the teaching about Christianity in schools and government buildings will be permitted to display religious things if they chose too. Rules about dress and tattoos are more of a personal thing for me. Violations of my rules will fall under indecent exposure and you will simply receive a fine.

As far as gun control goes, mine is extremely loose and any one can own virtually any weapon, the only requirement being that it can not be a military vehicle and that it must shoot lead, not missles. This is primarily for the purposes of reducing the likelyhood of tyranny, recreation, and self-defense. Gun ownership is encouraged among law abiding citizens and will be required in areas with a high crime rate.

My points about adoption and abortion are noted above, if you have a question about them, look up.

I have described my punishments above. My plan is for virtually immediate rehabilitation of criminals as they will alwas remember not to do the crime as they will remember the pain and still have the scars. I will add however, that second offenses will result in two of the punishments, third offenses will result in three, and after that, punishments will be doubled in intensity.

Racism is frowned upon and the government is not allowed to discriminate. However, private businesses owned by private individuals can choose to employ or server whoever they want.

Education will follow a unique model.
Primary education will be grades 1-6. Here students learn basic math, the basic concepts of government, basic world and National history, reading of modern text, the basics of researching, and significant amounts of persuasive, expository, and story/narrative writing.
Secondary education will be grades 7-9. Here students learn algebre and basic geometry, the students will learn politics(this is a unique system in which students will get a problem and must use, at this level, logic to defend their reasoning), there will be reading of upper level modern text, heavy amounts of research, basic computing, biology, and the writing of at least three major essays every week.
Tertiary education will be grades 10-12(12 being optional). In this students will be required to take two years of reading, two years of intense writing, one year of math, one semester of national history, one semester of government history, two years of politics(which is like in secondary except, at this level, students use facts, research, and history to defend their reasoning). Foreign language is not required. There will be a variety of optional classes that can act as college credit if the student is successful like medicine, psycology, business, language, engineering, law, etc..

The national month is January. It is when all laws go into effect and national leaders, soldiers, and our history is recognized. This is prominent in schools.

I have already gone over government. People will have the right to remove a district leader from office if 80% vote to remove him, they have the right to remove a governor if 75% vote to remove him, and can remove a king if 85% vote to remove him and all the governors vote to remove him. Replacements established by the people voting for a preexisting governor to become king. The same goes with governors.

Counters start R3.
Debate Round No. 2
henryajevans

Pro

Your system of government seems rather Napoleonic in terms of its mock decentralisation centred around a monarch who appoints regional governors. Napoleon claimed that his system of government was a constitutional monarchy, yet in practice it was an absolute monarchy ruled by an Imperial bureaucracy. He would appoint kings and dukes, normally from the ranks of his family and friends; who would in turn appoint subservient governors as provincial heads, and so on, so power was essentially dictatorial and run by either Napoleon himself or by his nepotistically appointed governors. Your recall system offers a little protection, but would likely result in the governor disregarding large swathes of the population, while hanging onto power through devoting resources to enough people to block the action. This would result in a dictatorial system of government, in which the bodies controlling society have no accountability to that society - a very dangerous condition indeed.

Your system of crime and punishment is somewhat archaic. Is it due to the national religion being Christianity? The idea of harsh punishment as a deterrent is based on disproved philosophy. It does not prevent crime. In 19th century Britain, stealing anything worth more than eight pence (about ten dollars in today's money) was punishable by death, and that punishment was regularly administered. Anything lower than that amount would result in transportation to Australia for a minimum of five years plus the number of pence it was worth. Both of these punishments were regularly administered, and we would both agree they are unduly harsh, but 19th century Britain was still rife with crime, especially theft. There are modern examples too. In many countries such as China, Singapore, Afghanistan, Cuba and even the USA and India, drug trafficking is punishable by death. If the principle of deterrent is accurate, there should be either no or very little drug trafficking in those countries. Afghanistan has since then become the drug trafficking capital of the world, and drugs are rife on the streets of Mumbai, Singapore, Hong Kong and in several US cities. Harsh punishments are a way of mopping the floor rather than fixing the pipe. The socio-economic factors in peoples' lives have much more of an impact on criminal justice than legislation.

Your laws on shooting people that come onto property are also rather silly. It seems to be making excuses for violent people to murder people at the slightest of provocation. Also, I find your rules about not shooting people on the floor to be rather quaint and connoting pistols at dawn and insults to honour. It is a much better policy to disarm the population rather than arm them, which is why there are lower crime rates in Europe than there are in the USA.

Your foreign policy, especially the part about paid intervention sounds a lot like this, just replace Stephen Fry with the Dixie ambassador and Hugh Laurie with the foreign despot. 'Would you like the gold premium package, which comes with fifteen infantry divisions complete with three armoured divisions and a detachment of helicopters.'

I don't want to get into a capitalism vs socialism or a universal healthcare vs private healthcare debate, so we'll stick to pheasability for now.
Cowboy0108

Con

You are assuming that my country will turn into a Napoleonic France. However, that is not true as it goes against other aspects of what the country stands for. Furthermore, the government may have the potential to do this, however, that does not mean that it would do that. The USA has the ability to Nuke China, that doesn't mean that it will.

My system of punishment would be effective. For one, violent offenders would be slowly and painfully killed, thus the number of violent offenders would decrease. My plan of punishment also has a benefit over yours as it ensures that a person will not spend years rotting in a prison, and my plan ensures that they will be free within a month, usually. In addition, the most likely reason for crime in those countries to continue is a poor economy. My country, in my opinion, would not have a poor economy.

My gun laws are actually effective. In one city in GA, Kennesaw, guns were recquired. The crime rate dropped by close to seventy percent in the first year of its adoption. In Chicago, guns were basically outlawed and, please, look at the crime rate there. When you see people commiting crimes, you see them doing them with baseball bats, knives, guns, crowbars, screwdrives, cars, and many more things. However, when you see a case of self defense, a gun is almost always used by the defender.

My foreign policy is basically what you just described. The difference is, I don't just give my troops to other countries. My country gets paid to intervene, and Dixie's general remains in charge of the troops.

Your gun control is not good for crime. People can still commit crimes with crowbars and knives. It is still harder for people to defend themselves with crowbars and knives, thus guns are needed. Your country will have many cases of innocent families being massacured by criminals because they cannot even attempt to defend themselves, unless they are lucky enough to have a permit, a gun, and reason to have a gun( of which your government decides). Furthermore, all that happens to these killers is deportation. What if they come back and you don't know? How many more people will they kill? What about the people in the other countries that you dump the prisoners? Wouldn't they be killed by the monsters anyway?

I would normally support adoption; however, group homes for adoption often have terrible conditions and the children are punished for being abandoned by their parents.

I will not get into the debate on abortion since we cannot determine a superior country based on this issue since people's opinions vary so much.

As far as racism goes, I support private companies hiring whoever they want. What if they want to hire a gay guy because gay people will support the business more. What if they don't hire a gay guy out of fear that they will be boycotted. The less government intervention in the private sector, the better.

I support your educational system so I will not debate it, especially since ours are relatively similar.

Your elections are fine by me. I just have to ask...What about the ignorant voters? What about the people who only vote for a person because of their race or religion and not what the person can actually do for the country?

I will stop for now.
Debate Round No. 3
henryajevans

Pro

henryajevans forfeited this round.
Cowboy0108

Con

Argument carries
Debate Round No. 4
henryajevans

Pro

The core philosophy underpinning my criminal justice system is the idea of behaviourism. There is no free will. People do things because their surroundings or their psyches compel them to, not because of their own free will or being naturally moral or immoral. A person robs someone at knifepoint because they either need goods or resources, or feel psychologically nourished from doing such a thing. If it is due to the fact that they need goods or resources, the government can help using their social programmes and as part of the rehabilitation procedure give them training for professions or jobs. This will eliminate, or at least drastically reduce, the need for money to be a motive for crime. Most crimes are committed for subsistence, not to finance lifestyles. If a person does it for any other reason, they are mentally ill, and require treatment. This treatment is provided free of charge and is of a high quality, and after rigorous reviews from parole and psychiatric boards, the person is permitted to leave the institution, under observation. For some, this may never happen. For the majority however, once they have received the initial care, they only require regular sessions with a psychiatrist to keep them in the straight and narrow. What does not make any difference is the existence of harsh punishments. If a person needs goods and services, they would still commit crime as it is the only way for them and their family to survive. The innate need for survival overrides all social factors, therefore even if the punishment was death, life imprisonment or one of your barbaric measures that violate pretty much every piece of international justice legislation ever passed; the crime would still take place. It is in our biology. We have had the need to survive for longer than we have had laws, a criminal justice system and society in general. At every stage of human evolution, we have had the need to survive and acquire resources. If a person is trapped on a desert island with another weaker but fatter person, they may resist cannibalistic urges until their body starts to shut down, in which case their primal instincts would kick in and throw all social construct to one side in favour of survival. In the case of mental illness, a person being mentally ill is another thing that bypasses social constructs. A person does not do something if they do not see it as justified at that point in time. Cognitive Dissonance is the act of justifying a decision made that all humans experience. For example, if a five year old takes a toy from their younger sibling, they would not say to themselves "they had it, I wanted it, therefore I took it", they would say "they have too many toys already", or "I needed it more than them", or "it is more suited to me than to them"; both mentally and verbally when required to explain themselves. The psychopath views themself as superior to others, and therefore their needs override the needs of others, which could explain a robbery on any scale, from a person stealing from a charity, or an investment banker siphoning money from pension funds; it works on any scale. A murder could be justified, at least in their minds, by the view that others merely exist as things for them to toy with, as the psychopath is one who is incapable of empathy or is rather narcissistic. A person who is a kleptomaniac may steal something because their minds told them that it was necessary to steal that, in order to satiate very powerful urges that are, without treatment or medication, impossible to suppress. Employing corporal punishment would not stop a kleptomaniac from stealing; only psychiatric treatment would. Calling a person who commits a violent crime a "monster" only serves to demonise a criminal. Sure, we may look upon them as pieces of dirt, like a paedophile or a serial killer; but we must understand that people do not do those things out of choice. They do not think "Oh, I am ever so bored today; I think I might just rape some children, or possibly strangle some women". They would have a mental condition that prevents them from either seeing the moral implications or social taboo of their actions, or from regarding the consequences of them. Your principle of corporal punishment and torture as deterrents were proven not to work in a series of experiments performed in the mid-20th century, such as Milgram"s compliancy study, Zimbardo"s Stamford Prison Experiment, and others, which proved that behaviour is either learned through interaction with others, or is implemented by environments. I will grant you that in an environment that does not tolerate something, that thing will not breed as much as in one that permits it, as explained by both of the above experiments. Milgram"s showed that the presence of authority figures and a professional surrounding could influence a person to do anything, such as committing war crimes as a result of following orders was an acceptable reason, since in a stressful situation, one is normally motivated to obey figures of authority. In Zimbardo"s experiment, he found that through getting mentally stable Stamford University students to be divided into prisoners and guards in a prison in the basement of the psychology department, the guards were found to brutalise the prisoners extensively, since their surroundings encouraged that behaviour, and in interviews afterwards, the students were shocked at how they had behaved. The current systems of criminal justice throughout the world are primarily based on either tradition, small-mindedness or the lack of funds to direct such programmes.
The same principle applies with gun control. You seem to be living in fear that crime will be rife, which in Metropotamia, thanks to the government acting on mass unemployment and deprived areas, it would be virtually non-existent on the social front, while on the mental health front, thanks to the provision of quality psychiatric care, the murder rate would drop significantly; while in your society based on a free market, it would end up like the USA and the UK at the moment, where there has consistently been mass unemployment (In the UK since Thatcher dismantled Atlee and Wilson"s socialism in the early 1980s; and in the USA when Nixon and Reagan dismantled the Bretton Woods Agreement and Keynesian Economics in general in the 1970s and 80s); and whole sections of cities and, in some cases whole cities, such as Sheffield, Belfast, Manchester, Newcastle, Glasgow, Bradford, Liverpool and Birmingham in the UK, and Detroit and Chicago (there are probably more examples; these are the ones off the top of my head), have fallen into decay and capital has flown rapidly out of the cities; and psychiatric, and in the case of the USA, healthcare in general, is unavailable to vast portions of the population, which are the reasons for the violent crime rates. An unemployed, mentally unstable population that live in a deprived area are bound to commit violent crimes, and giving citizens the arms necessary to stage a small war is just wiping the water from the floor, rather than fixing the pipe.
When you say that group homes are terrible facilities for children to grow up in, the solution is plainly obvious. In Metropotamia, they are integrated with the local communities as much as possible; the only difference is that they live in good quality group homes, with well-trained carers and good resources to live normal and productive lives once they leave.
The ironically-titled "FairTax" system is quite obviously something devised by Wall Street fanatics who want to create a low-growth, low-inflation economy that provides minimal services and benefits the rich over the poor. It is perfect for parasitic investment bankers to plunder the country"s wealth and leave the peasants back at the bottom. Applying the most rudimentary modern economics as found in Keynes" theory of consumption (consumption+investment+government spending+exports-imports), "FairTax" would restrict consumer spending on goods that were not exempt from the tax, such as luxury goods, which would reduce long run aggregate demand, therefore economic growth and inflation. Those are the conditions perfect for them to buy stocks, manipulate their values and sell at raised values to make money for themselves without having produced anything. This is the current system, just magnified. I"m not sure about the American figures, but in the UK, 60% of the economy is based on the finance sector. Roughly 5% of that sector is based on trade and long term infrastructural investment, which has a tangible or at least semi-tangible value. The remaining 95% is based on speculation of rising and falling prices of various things, such as shares in companies, commodities such as gold or coffee, and in currency values. This is completely untangible, and creates no real economic growth, since no good or service has been created or provided, they have just magicked up money from the market. This works best in countries with low growth and low inflation, which the Reaganite and Thatcherite economies and their successors have worked tirelessly to achieve. This means that over half of the UK economy does not really exist, and is based on speculation. This is the cause of the current recession, rather than overspending or the poor, since it is overly convenient that a reduction in spending would cause the conditions they favour to arise. Milton Friedmann"s economic theories are widely implemented to obtain these conditions, and when inflation control becomes more important than unemployment control, the world as a whole is in deep trouble. The FairTax system would naturally hit those who consume more as a percentage of their income i.e. the poor, since the rich save most of their income, and therefore do not consume as much proportionate to their income. Any flat rate of tax would proportionately hit the poor more than the rich.
Cowboy0108

Con

Criminal Justice
I will agree with your point about crime being virtually nonexistent if people do not need anything because it is all provided for them. However, what about crimes of passion? What about the guy who killed the guy who stole his wife? Does he need psychological help too? I do not feel this motive for crime was addressed in your system. Furthermore, even though death may not deter criminals, as you described, it will still kill the criminals and we do not have to take care of them for the remainder of their meaningless lives.
All in all, I would not support this criminal justice system, even if it eliminates ALL crime, because it also eliminates ALL freedom.

Gun Control
In America, many places with more guns have less crime. This is true for a vast majority of the nation. This is not true for all of it however. This is why Dixie will leave gun control up to the states, even though the federal government will support this. You seem to also believe that my policies will ensure mass unemployment which will encourage crime. This is an assumption on your part.

FairTax
What you have addressed regarding fairtax is all the misconceptions of it that prevent it from being passed. First, used items will not be taxed. This will encourage home ownership and used car sales as these items have already been possessed previously. Second, the item can only be taxed once and not along the stages of production. This will cause mass deflation because it lacks the taxes in place under income tax. Third, it is actually balanced. Before you assume that it will shift the tax burden to the poor, look into the prebates which are specifically designed to reimburse the people for the taxes they paid on necessities. In America, adoption of the fairtax will increase economic well being across the board, it will decrease unemployment, it will increase home sales, increase revenue by 352 Billion dollars, and ensure that all people pay less taxes in their lifetime than with income tax. (fairtax.org) (And economists came up with these statistics if you want to dispute the people who have far more credibility than you do)
I will stop as these are the only points you addressed in R5.
Vote for me!
Debate Round No. 5
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by henryajevans 3 years ago
henryajevans
All the pound symbols are ditto marks for some reason.
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