Creationism vs big-bang/evolution Pro for bb/e Con for creation
Debate Rounds (5)
NO opinions just facts, cites and proof.
I AND my opponent have the burden of PROOF.
My opponent will state his religion and his said religions creation story.
If you reference anything biblical to your religion please cite it and such.
definitions are supported.
This round is not a round of debate it is a round of confirmation.
2nd round for actual debate
3rd round for rebuttals and/or extending your proof/debate.
4th round is as the 3rd was.
5th round is for closing statements only. No extra proof no rebuttals just your closing statement and if you have it a emotional statement and your opinions.
Good luck and let us understand each other on fair terms.
What I am trying to say is that Creationism and the big bang can coexist but the big bang theory cannot work without god. Even if there really was a big bang that created the universe there had to be something that made the big bang happen!
Also I would like to ask you how a tiny microscopic life form could have developed from inorganic matter? Have you ever seen carbon turn into a living creature? for Life to have started there had to be a god.
As for evolution i don't see why creationism and evolution can't coexist too! If god is all powerful why cant he make the creatures of the earth evolve. He is god for Pete's sake if he wants to change the creatures he has created there is nothing to stop him from doing it! Also in the bible it says that god created the world in like a week (sorry i don't feel like finding a quote I think it is in Genesis). The bible can be interpreted in many ways and it is my opinion that a week for God might be a lot longer than a week for humans. maybe every day for god is billions of years long. Also if god can evolve animals maybe he really did use monkeys to make man! lol
The big bang was an explosion of time and space. It was spontaeneous. BUT what you creationists may or may not understand, is that We don't know why it happened (yet) but we know how, on a limited scale. The big bang had eight eras.
The planck era lasted about 1/10 of a second. In this tenth of a second the four fundemental forces of nature(gravity, weak force, strong force and electromagnetism) combined to then explode once again separating them for good .
The natural forces separation started the GUT era, this is the order they separated in. Gravity, strong and weak force and then of course electro magnetism was left.
The electro weak era started a tenth of a second after gut. This era explains that the strong and weak forces decoupled here and caused a rapid explosion of space called inflation. This would in turn expand the universe.
The next era using the strong and weak force, quarks, anti-matter, atoms and more began here. The second and first laws of thermodynamics not only are the reason why this can happen it also is the reason that some day our universe will reach absolute entropy where all matter is energy. HOWEVER the second law of thermodynamics allows for such entropy it does not hinder evolution in the slightest and it has no effect on the evolutionary observation at all. This means that the argument of thermodynamics hinders evolution is false.
More info here http://www.skyandtelescope.com...
The laws of science that have been proven and have been tested show that the big bang is plausable if not fact. To further on it is possible to assume that energy came from a past universe that has reached complete entropy. Its a logical assumption of a creationist to say that "Thermo dynamics can make God an option" I will answer with "If he was made of energy than it is possible but for all we know he is an etheral being not supported by the ten dimensions of space and time." Bug i do not think he exists so that is just a bit pointless. Your argument has a few flaws in it so I will ask now: If you assume there was absolutely nothing then how can your god become god? Also you and I and the rest of us can not fathom the empty-ness and soul rending void of black or not evn color that is nothing. Thats why assuming that the god particle that is the higgs boson (found as of 2012) is one of the things we can say existed in place of nothing. In a sense the nothing argument does not work because yoh can say god was there. And I could say the higgs boson was. Nothing is impossible.
To move on to evolution now.
I would advise you after this read to research the fleshed out definition of scientific theory.
Evolution and creationism can not coe exist because they and their respective proccesses are completely different for the other and cannot be compared. They can only be argued.
First off the definition of scientific theory is an idea that is tested tried and is in observation. Our definition of evolution alone changes every decade or so because it is still in observation. If you remember grade school you will know that there are stages to a scientific theory.
To answer your question on "How can life evolve from non-living matter" I advise you research A-biogenesis or the study and theorem of living matter evolving from a non living natural substance. The idea of the first protean or proteans evolving to multi-cellular organic beings and creatures is evolution at its heart.
This is a source on a small tid-bit of abiogenesis
The rest of this arguement is personal oppinion and I cant interperate gods thoughts because I have a lack of a beleif in god.
"As for evolution i don't see why creationism and evolution can't coexist too! If god is all powerful why cant he make the creatures of the earth evolve. He is god for Pete's sake if he wants to change the creatures he has created there is nothing to stop him from doing it! Also in l the bible it says that god created the world in like a week (sorry i don't feel like finding a quote I think it is in Genesis). The bible can be interpreted in many ways and it is my opinion that a week for God might be a lot longer than a week for humans. maybe every day for god is billions of years long. Also if god can evolve animals maybe he really did use monkeys to make man! lol"
In this special case wikipedia sources are credible but have to be reveiwed by the voter if they think it is credible
This has everything to do with coexisting because creationism can work with evolution and the big bang but evolution and the bb cannot have started without God. So YES the theory of evolution is most likely true and the big bang theory may also be true but without a god they couldn't have happened.
"The big bang was an explosion of time and space. It was spontaneous. BUT what you creationists may or may not understand, is that We don't know why it happened (yet)"
The reason we don't know why it happened is because it could not possibly have happened without god. Giant explosions don't just randomly happen.
" The big bang had eight eras." These eras are not factual It is not possible to back this up! No one was around to see the big bang. This is just a theory just like creationism! Why are you more willing to believe in this than God creating the universe?
"it is possible to assume that energy came from a past universe that has reached complete entropy." Ok who made this past universe? was it made by another big bang? What caused that big bang? don't you see that without God there cannot be a beginning? Unless maybe time goes in a circle.
" If you assume there was absolutely nothing then how can your god become god?" Ive often pondered that myself! But that is what makes God, God. He is eternal, he always was, is, and always will be. God just is. when there was nothing there was god and if there i sever nothing again there will still be God.
"In a sense the nothing argument does not work because you can say god was there. And I could say the higgs boson was. Nothing is impossible." I agree it is impossible for there to be nothing because neither theory would work if there was nothing to start the big bang or creation. Basically you have said that for you God is the Higgs Bosan particle but what makes this particle any more realistic than God? The higgs they have now is still only a canidate.
"Evolution and creationism can not coe exist because they and their respective proccesses are completely different for the other and cannot be compared. They can only be argued."
But they can coexist because god is all powerful. For life to have started there had to be a God. why does it matter if god created life all at once or in steps through evolution?
Now on with the rest of the debate.
I COMPLETELY dismantled your argument on "Explosions can not happen randomly." Refer to the cite I gave on thermodynamics and the big bang.
Thermodynamics - https://en.m.wikipedia.org......
Big bang - http://www.skyandtelescope.com......
To further on: you do not know what a THEORY is. A scientific theory is the highest level of the science of hypothosis. Therefor a theory is something A: proven B: testable C: observed and still observable THAT is a theory.
As I cited above in my last argument here is the site to this: http://www.notjustatheory.com...
Saying that the big bang was not recorded does not mean it was not and still is observable.
That theory that you are talking about is higher than the laws of science itself.
The 8 eras of the big bang did happen. The higgs boson is not an alternative to your heinous "God" because it has been FOUND. Using gods powers as proof is not proof.
Even more proof that the creation story is false is humans are said to be walking around the earth at the beginning, scientifically when dinosaurs rules the earth. If this is true then we would find in dirt layers dino bones mixed with human bones. But we do not. The flood in your "Bible" is false because if it happened we would find dirt layers and ground layers mixed in random areas effectively taking bones with them, yet dating in this fashion shows that there was no flood...AT ALL.
Carbon dating - http://science.howstuffworks.com...
It IS possible to assume we are living in a universal cycle that after every entropy event in abuniverse it implodes on itself. But you asked "well how did the energy to create the first universe come to be?" You are putting a proof standard that is impossible to achieve with modern day science. But just because we do not know why it happened does not mean god did it. You dont kneed god to explain the currently unexplainable just find a way to explain it.
I never said the "you could say god was there and i could say the higgs was. Nothing is impossible." In fact I did not even imply it in the slightest.
"The higgs they have now is still only a candidate." Uhh no it is not because we found the freaking thing and we deducted that that is the reason why the laws of thermal dynamics allow for spontaneous explosions and the creation of matter through heat and energy. All my points stand proud and proven. Where you have not given ANy proof at all of why creationism is more logical than the others. And stop using oppinions or be deducted points for falty use of an argument. It is there in my debate rules.
The higgs boson is also the explanation to why all mass is and forms as it does.
More about the higgs boson - http://science.howstuffworks.com...
Until there is further proof of the big bang and evolution they will remain theories to me. They probably happened but we don't know.
I agree with you that the big bang and evolution are likely to have happened but I think that if they did happen it was because God made them happen.
Throughout the entire argument you have not given any good reasons for why the big bang happened or how life started. You have given me reasons but they don't seem any more realistic than God
Why would you rather believe in these theories that have been invented by men less than 200 years ago than in a God that millions of people have worshiped for thousands of years?
I used to be an atheist in elementary school but then I realized that atheism offers absolutely no benefits. Even if god isn't real Christianity gives people a moral code to follow and hope for an eternal life. Oh and speaking of the moral code, if we evolved from animals and there is no god, how do we know right from wrong?
I admit it your theories are just as likely as mine. It all comes down to what you would rather believe. Maybe someday we will have the answers but until then no one can know for sure whether or not there was a god that created the earth until they die.
Thank You for debating with me :) I hope that someday you will see that God love's you.
Wow ok. You want to know why we do not believe in an omnipotent sky daddy? Because we do not want to believe in a 2000 year old book that has not been updated AT ALL. Only translations have been made. Were is your burden of proof? Because I have looked all over your arguments and found none. To further on:
I have told you numerous times that a scientific THEORY is something that is testable, that is observable. We do not believe in God because he is not testable, not observable and therefor voilates the definition of theory. You cant even call relegions THEORIES because they do not even meet that standard.
You continue to ask: "If we evolved without god then how can we decide right from wrong?" I want to cuss at you badly but for the sake of manners you are lucky. To answer this: We know right from wrong by survival instincts. We do what is generally beneficial to society and that is considered "Right." We do what generally bad for society like killing someone as "Bad." If it is beneficial to you alone then that is considered good in oppinion. If it is bad for you and you alone it is generally considered bad in oppinion. Thats how. I could go on all say about this phsycology feild but I have more to day about your God. Your religious creation story relies heavily if not entirely on the existence of a God. Prove god is not logical = creation story obsolete.
This is a test argument and I want to see how this baby works:
Argument A001: topic : God.
P1:God is considered omnipotent and is all powerful.
P2:God makes another god more powerful than himself and cannot get rid of him voilating the definition of omnipotent.
C1:God can not exist and is not omnipotent.
Omnibenevolent God is not plausible:
P1: Gods judgements are said to be Omnibenevolent:
P2: An all powerfull and uncorrupted god would rid of evil on sight.
C2: God does not do this and therefor is not "Omnibenevolent.".
A god that can know all is not plausible:
P1: God is said to know the future past and present.
P2:God is said to have given us free will.
C3: God knows all our decisions and actions and therefor free will is nonexistent.
Complete conclusion: God is not logical, God does not exist, God is not omnibenevolent, God is not omnipotent, God can not know all.
End of argument A001: topic : God.
Hopefully this works out.
End of argument.
MegadethRocks44 forfeited this round.
MegadethRocks44 forfeited this round.
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