The Instigator
Jevinigh
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Jifpop09
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Crimea has a right to secede from Ukraine

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/10/2014 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,367 times Debate No: 48754
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (7)
Votes (0)

 

Jevinigh

Pro


A regional people and or a regional government has the right to secede from a nation and secession, the ability to throw off ones government is a basic human right. A region and or regional people can declare independence in the result of being badly failed, prosecuted or worse by a standing government in order to join with another state or form an independent state.

In the case of Crimea, an ethnic-cultural and economic tie to Russia in this Region is obvious and strong. The suggestion that their secession should need the permission fo a state they have remarkably little in common with,especially after the usurper government is composed of radical Nationalists and even openly neo Nazi factions have a controlling interest in the new government.

Crimea clearly has a right to its secession. The debate, if you accept will be in 3 rounds.

Round 1: Opening Argument
Round 2: Rebuttal and Questions.
Round 3: Answers and closing argument.
Jifpop09

Con

I was not aware the debate time was only a day, so I will have to forfeit this round. Sorry, but only 2 minutes left.
Debate Round No. 1
Jevinigh

Pro

Apologies , I set the debate time for a day because my initial thoughts where that a 3 round debate could be made to go a bit quicker. In the future I will maintain the normal 3 day period. I would ask anyone voting on this debate not to hold the missed deadline against jifpop, even though he was able to see the terms of the debate before he accepted the challenge ( See what I did there. ;) )

Cession is a right of any free people, to truly be a free people the ability to break away from a government that is disassociate with the values of the people in the region, even disconnected with the language and preferences of the people in the region. In the poll form which I made this challenge you wrote the following:

"
Jifpop09 saysMarch 10 2014 06:45 AM
Report Post
You can't have a referendum, but exclude 80% of the country. It's like if Arkansaw wanted to secede, but people in Ohio couldn't vote.
"

To give this into relevance it needs additional context, In this scenario the legitimately elected government has been deposed and replaced with a government controlled by radical right wing elements, primarily i7;k4;l6;k3;l6;k6;k2; (svoboda) an equivalent translation is National Socialist or more commonly called Fascists or Neo Nazis. So lets say the federal government was completely hijacked by a radical winged movement. Arkansas than says " This country no longer presents our people, our values or our wishes" the Democratically elected state government than votes on a measure to break away and become independent. This is a more accurate portrayal of the Crimean situation save that Crimea is joining Russia rather than becoming an independent nation state.
Jifpop09

Con

Argument 1: People can only Secede when the nation is causing active harm
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- International Law allows nations to Secede, only when the government is causing active harm to the population, or they are being oppressed politically. Currently, Crimean citizens have all the rights that Ukranians do, you could even argue a little more. They can participate in active government, and from what I know, the government is not suppressing ethnic Russians. Which makes seccesion illegal by international law.

http://www.sbs.com.au...

Argument 2: Secession has to be through the International Community
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In responce to your rebuttal (Never seen anyone use me as a source :), Arkansaw can't just secede. By law, any act of seperation needs to be done through the international community, and the country in question. The Crimean Parliament can't just secede, they need to bring it to the community of nations, and need to involve Ukraine before they can make a referendrum.

It's like me saying to the residents of my town, I decided were going to Secede from the US, there will be a vote on tuesday. If the vote was in favor, does that give me my seccesion valid?

http://www.csmonitor.com...



Debate Round No. 2
Jevinigh

Pro

While the vote may violate international law, the revolution which deposed a legitimately elected government was like wise illegal. Besides this, the international community has no stake in their issue, no skin in the game as the saying goes. To hand the keys over making this decision over to an "international community" is to give the decision to making to people who are generally not knowledgeable about the specific situation, the issues the people in Crimea face. International law may deem it Illegal but the International community has no standing to act against the people of Crimea for making a decision to leave the Ukraine. Nor are they honestly qualified to make these judgments about Crimea. The process for deciding its secession is being handled democratically, but above that the Government of Ukraine which to which Crimea was a part- has been Deposed. The Elected government is in Exile and so It is hard pressing say to the people in Crimea 'No, you must remain in Ukraine- Even though the rest of the country has over thrown the elected government... even though the new Government is controlled by radical right wing Nationalists, You cannot secede until there is blood in the streets'. This is the case international community brings to the table.

Further, it is a folly that West is focusing its attention on Russia. Crimea is the one having the vote. Does the hypocrisy of supposedly democratic nations disregarding democratic processes really not make its own point?

http://www.mcclatchydc.com... <- Article Outlines the nature of the vote, as well as touching on the relationship Crimea has with both Ukraine and Russia.

The Right Sector speaks: http://mag.newsweek.com...

Alternate source: http://www.nytimes.com...

http://www.globalresearch.ca...

And with this, despite there being quite a bit more resources to support a Dangerous Neo Nazi control of the Ukrainian revolution. The White house and west continues to deny what is obvious. That an Illegal and dangerous coup was mounted by a Dangerous neo Nazi sect successfully deposed a elected government and now controls Kiev.

Thank you for the Debate Jifpop09 and look forward to having more of them with you.
Jifpop09

Con

Why the referendum is not legitimate
==========================

Russia is swaying voters
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1.
Currently, Crimeans are not allowed to view Ukrainian media. This is an obvious attempt to sway voters, which only emphasizes the importance of international supervision in the upcoming referendum.

2. If you have not been updated on current events, Russia has assembled a huge invasion force outside Crimea. Is it unreasonable to assume voters may be swayed by this scare tactic? That's not even all. They've likewise, been doing miliitary exercises off the coast of poland and lithuania. The two most vocal about the Crimean Crisis.


http://www.nytimes.com...
http://www.foxnews.com...

Rebuttals

While the vote may violate international law, the revolution which deposed a legitimately elected government was like wise illegal.

It was hardly a revolution. They were mass protests, and then the president starting cracking down on them. This is a crime against humanity, and that's why the parliament ousted him.

https://www.kyivpost.com...

Besides this, the international community has no stake in their issue, no skin in the game as the saying goes.

I believe they do. The countries have formed these laws not without reason. They were to ensure peace and stability, and to keep security within the community. Seccessions ussualy lead to death, and that is probably whats going to happen if Crimea joins Russia. If they want to secede, they have to go through legal channels.

http://www.theguardian.com...

The process for deciding its secession is being handled democratically, but above that the Government of Ukraine whichto which Crimea was a part- has been Deposed. The Elected government is in Exile and so It is hard pressing say to the people in Crimea 'No, you must remain in Ukraine- Even though the rest of the country has over thrown the elected government... even though the new Government is controlled by radical right wing Nationalists, You cannot secede until there is blood in the streets'. This is the case international community brings to the table.

Once again, when a government starts killing protestors, then that is when the people have a right to dispose them. The parliament democratically impeached him.

http://www.aljazeera.com...







Debate Round No. 3
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by Jifpop09 3 years ago
Jifpop09
Ha, I have more arguments to provide, even though the legitimacy of such a referendum can not be confirmed without international supervision. I have more arguments to provide also. The fact that Russia is censoring Ukrainian television channels, and an invasion force is waiting outside the peninsula, MAY have an effect on the situation.
Posted by bubbatheclown 3 years ago
bubbatheclown
Country should be able to go about their own affairs without worrying about "international laws" unless their actions/policies are hurting another nation(s). A place seceding from its mother country should not be a breach of any international law.
Posted by Jevinigh 3 years ago
Jevinigh
i was actually about to draw some parallels between Russia and Crimea and German and Poland. Stay tuned for that.
Posted by BobTheLibertarian 3 years ago
BobTheLibertarian
Love this debate topic, I believe Crimea has the right to secede but Russia shouldn't have sent troops into Crimea. Kinda reminds me of when Hitler wanted the Sudetenland.
Posted by Jevinigh 3 years ago
Jevinigh
Yeah i figured that for a 3 rounder, it could go kind of fast. In the future I will just default to 3 days.
Posted by Jifpop09 3 years ago
Jifpop09
You only set the debate time for a day!!!!???
Posted by Jevinigh 3 years ago
Jevinigh
Hey Jiff, Is everything oke?
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