The Instigator
STALIN
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Haxis288
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

D-Day had no effect on the outcome of WWII.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/17/2013 Category: Arts
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,902 times Debate No: 42514
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (2)
Votes (0)

 

STALIN

Pro

D-Day, also known as the Normandy Landings had no effect on the outcome of WWII. In WWII, there were two possible outcomes to the war.

Outcome #1: Axis Victory

Outcome #2: Allied Victory

I will be arguing that if D-Day had never happened, Germany would still have lost the war no matter what. My opponent will be arguing that Germany had a chance of winning WWII by the time the allies invaded France and might still have won the war if D-Day had never happened.

Note: In this debate, saying that the allied invasion of France stopped the Soviets from invading France is not a valid argument.

My opponent will attempt to argue that D-Day did have an effect on the outcome of the war (axis victory) and I will be arguing that the Normandy Landings had no effect on the outcome of WWII.

Round 1 is for acceptance. Good luck and have fun.


Haxis288

Con

I am a Socialist first off. Now if the allies never performed D-Day France would be under Fascist Controll and also at the battle of Berlin Hitler would have fled to Paris or Other Axis held territory in Western Europe so the Western Powers Canada US & UK would not have been able to set up defended there and kill Fascists the German military would also be Much Much Stronger. Because they wouldn't have D-Day casualties. The Soviets would still liberate the east but the squeez attic would never come to play. And not very many understand that Paton's Invasion of Italy was part of D-Day but if D-Day never happend Mussilni would have been able to Support Hitler with Italian Forces and Renforce Nazi held territory Such as Czechoslovak territory and Austrian and Yugoslav. So the Axis would still control and have far more reinforcements in the East than if D-Day had happend. So in this Reality the Soviets would face million more causilites than with D-day happening.
Debate Round No. 1
STALIN

Pro

I really would have appreciated if my opponent just said "I accept" instead of stating arguments. Nevertheless, I will write my arguments.

Battle of Stalingrad

The Battle of Stalingrad lasted from 1942-1943 and was Hitler's worst defeat. 850,000 German, Romanian, Hungarian, Croatian, and Italian soldiers were killed, captured, or taken prisoner. After Stalingrad, it was all downhill for Germany. This was the most important turning point of WWII.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Battle of Kursk

The Battle of Kursk was the main German offensive of 1943. In the summer, Hitler attempted to pinch off the Kursk Salient. Eventually Germany was forced to retreat. During the 1943 summer offensive, Germany suffered around 250,000 casualties. In addition to this, the German Wehrmacht lost so many tanks that the German armored forces were no longer a real threat to anybody. After the Battle of Kursk, Germany lost all chances of winning WWII.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Operation Bagration

At the same time that the Western Allies were invading France, the Red Army launched Operation Bagration which finally crushed the German army. Germany lost hundreds of thousands of men. Operation Bagration eventually brought the Red Army to the gates of Berlin.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

My Arguments

The information that I just presented may seem pointless but what I am trying to show is that by the time the Western Allies invaded France, Germany was all but defeated. By the time the Western Allies had invaded France, the Soviet army outnumbered Germany by a ratio of at least 6:1. I really can't see how Germany would have won. The Lufftwaffe (Germany air force) no longer existed. Germany had no tanks left. The Soviet Union was producing more than 3 times as much as Germany. There was no longer any chance for Germany to win the war.

In the previous round, my opponent presented an argument stating that D-Day prevented Hitler from escaping into France and continue the war from there. This argument is laughable. Where would Hitler recieve his troops from if the German forces were defeated and all major German cities captured? From France? No, the French hated the Germans and would most likely start uprisings after seeing that the Red Army had captured Germany. There was no longer any chances of a German victory.

Con also says that if D-Day had never happened then Mussolini would have been able to support Hitler. This is new to me because last time I checked, D-Day took place on the coast of France, not in Italy. Also, by 1944 most of Italy had been conquered by the British and Americans.

I await arguments and rebuttals from Con in the next round.


Haxis288

Con

I know D-Day was in France but it also took part in Italy as well. So Fascist strongholds in France would still exsist so thus meaning that German Conscripts would still be alive so reinforcements would be more abundant. Yes defeats in the Eastern Front helped greatly in the Fascist defeat but D-Day opens Europe to foreign forces to invade. With out UK & American soldiers the Rhine and the low countries would still be held by Fascists and give Soviet forces a harder time by pushing through the east when the Fascists have backed up & reinforced west to bring more supplies and strongholds so the soviets would still take Berlin but they would than have to fight in the west too. The soviet military had the largest causalites so the battle of Berlin was one of the bloodiest battles of the war the soviets would be exhausted and moral would than with low moral and soldiers would have to fight more in the west and the Fascist armies would be well rested have better defences for being in the home land and building on it for several years and the soviets would have to fight this. It wouldn't be a good strategic or tactical descion for a military attack. They would be outnumbered and have low moral and ammunition and defences.
Debate Round No. 2
STALIN

Pro

"I know D-Day was in France but it also took part in Italy as well."

D-Day took place at Normandy, not in Italy.

"So Fascist strongholds in France would still exsist so thus meaning that German Conscripts would still be alive so reinforcements would be more abundant."

Throughout WWII, there were few German soldiers in France.

"Yes defeats in the Eastern Front helped greatly in the Fascist defeat but D-Day opens Europe to foreign forces to invade."

Foreign forced (Red Army) were invading long before D-Day ever happened.

"With out UK & American soldiers the Rhine and the low countries would still be held by Fascists and give Soviet forces a harder time by pushing through the east..."

Sure it would have been harder and would have taken much longer, but this fact does not prove that Germany could have won the war.

Con seems to think that just because there were German forces in France, the USSR would have lost. The fact is that there were so few German soldiers in France, that at D-Day the allies outnumbered Germany 15:1[1]. He has not stated any real arguments. I await more...

Sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org...
Haxis288

Con

The USSR would have been pushed back to the Polish border and also Romanian and Bulgarian Soldiers would have also pushed back due to US airraids never occurring for the distance would be to great. And the Croats would have also had a stringer chance as well due to Paton never invading Italy as part of the Italian front on D-Day he wouldn't have made it to Austria and Modern day Slovenia under Croat controll. So the Fascists would have a advantage in the alps and also in the Balkens pushing the Soviets back to Poland-Belorussia and Moldova. And the Germans had Vichy France on tree side as a puppet like Slovakia and Croatia. So Vichy soldiers would have supported the Fascists in France and Fascists also drafted citizens in occupied nations so the US and Other western nations not invading and Soviets on Germany's front door the Fascists would have drafted far more French,Belgian, and Dutch soldiers. Because D-Day not liberating them and Hitler would have gotten asylum in a Paris bunker. Yes the French would be upset but they have no power over that. Also if the Soviets made it to the Rhine the French built defences in the Alslac-Lorrien since the Franco-Prussian war so the Fascists would just reuse and rebuild the forts and the Italians & Croats would have cut of Soviets in Czechoslovak territory and in the Austrian-German alps. And the Fascists funded insugergant movements in the Caucasian Region such as Chechnya so Soviets would also face domestic issues along with forieng issues. With Romania and Bulgaria in Support with the Fascists the Nazis would have a large Navy in the Black sea as well because of the British-American involvement in the Meditaranian as part of the Mid-East theater of D-Day so Fascists ships would pass through easier. The Soviet Army alone couldn't fight Nazis by them selves in outside lands. Mongolia & Tuva didn't provide very much help and The Chinese Soviet didn't want any thing todo with the USSR until the late 40's. So the USSR wouldn't have to much support. And Soviet arms at the time wernt the best on earth there best wepon was the PPSH-41 an amazing gun off topic but there arms were that of the 1890's. The Nazi weapons were far more sophisticated. The MP-40 & MP-44 were examples of it the MP-44 was what the soviets based the Modern Ak-47 off of. Also V-2 rockets were also held by the Germans and I think we both know in a desperate time hitler would have used a wepon such as that. The cloesest thing the soviets had was Stalin's Orgen which is just a large rocket launcher. So the Fadcists would have more defences more territory and more resources.
Debate Round No. 3
STALIN

Pro

"The USSR would have been pushed back to the Polish border..."

These are empty words. My opponent has said nothing that can prove this and he has provided no sources for support.

"And the Croats would have also had a stringer chance..."

The Croats barely had an army during WWII. They couldn't possibly do anything against anybody.

"So the Fascists would have a advantage in the alps and also in the Balkens pushing the Soviets back to Poland-Belorussia and Moldova."

With what army? Like I said earlier, Germany was heavily outnumbered by the Soviets. They were low on supplies and the German army barely had any tanks/planes left. These are once again, empty words.

"So Vichy soldiers would have supported the Fascists in France and Fascists also drafted citizens in occupied nations so the US and Other western nations not invading and Soviets on Germany's front door the Fascists would have drafted far more French,Belgian, and Dutch soldiers."

Vichy France was nothing during WWII. Many of the French soldiers who fought alongside German forces didn't even have a wish to fight against the allies. This argument makes no sense. Vichy France could not possibly have effected the outcome of the war by 1944.

I don't think there is any reasons for me to reply to any more of Con's arguments considering the fact that Con did not bother to reply to any of mine. I shall therefore conclude.

Conclusion

I proved that by 1944, Germany was all but defeated. They no longer had sufficient tanks/planes left. The Soviet Union was outproducing Germany by at least 3:1. My opponent replied to my arguments by stating that if the Western Allies had not invaded France, Hitler would have gone to France and continued the war from there. Con did not say anything about how he would do this. Also, I showed that the German population was not in France, but in Germany. Con also made the mistake of assuming that D-Day took place in Italy as well as France. I'm not sure where Con learned his history, but here is a source that proves that what Con is assuming is compltely incorrect.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

My opponent did not prove that Germy had a chance of winning the war by 1944. I, on the other hand, showed how Germany was heavily outnumbered and could barely produce sufficient material to keep its army fed. By 1944, Germany was down to boys and old men. Germany no longer had any chances of winning the war and that is the reason that D-Day had no effect on the outcome of the war.


Haxis288

Con

But the Fascists would still have Vichy France as a ally and Romania Bulgaria and other Pro-Axis nations in the Balkens. The war would be prolonged to the 1950's. Which would give the Fascists time to rehabilitate. Also what sources would I have? D-Day did happen so I can't get sources for no D-Day and just putting links to German defeats in Russia and Ukraine dosnt mean to much yes Stalingrad was a great victory for the Soviets. But Germans were still in Eastern Poland at this time so the fact of the matter is the soviets would have no support and would be left to Boys and oldmen as well like Leningrad. And the west wouldn't be able to help the soviets in sertin battles in Germany. Germany would have a larger chance of a terrible but enviable victory. I know military strategy I know D-Day was need for a Comutrune & Allied victory and to take down fascism for good.
Debate Round No. 4
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by STALIN 3 years ago
STALIN
huh?
Posted by Gs325jcbd 3 years ago
Gs325jcbd
oh great lol
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