The Instigator
Pro (for)
14 Points
The Contender
Con (against)
0 Points

DC Comics: At their prime, Batman is a better vigilante than Green Arrow.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/4/2012 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,694 times Debate No: 26008
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (6)
Votes (2)





1. No trolling at all. Any trolling by a debater will cause the opponent to gain the conduct point.
2. No usage of semantics. Any usage of semantics will cause the opponent to gain the conduct point.
3. Must follow the debate order. Any failure to follow the debate order will result in the loss of the entire debate.

You can use any DC Comics source including television shows, movies, books, comics, etc. The 1st round is only acceptance without any definitions or that kind. The 2nd round will be opening arguments with no rebuttals. The 3rd round will be for new arguments and rebuttals. The 4th round will be for cross-examination only. The 5th round will be for rebuttals for the entire debate and the conclusion. I hope someone accepts this comics debate.


Time for me to get back into debating again :)

I accept this debate, I always have fun with the comic book ones and want you to know under normal circumstances I would side with batman being better but for fun this debate I'm playing devils advocate.

I would also like to say the rock solid word of any DC sources of any kind is not that rock solid can only be taken to mean so much on this debate and I will argue to the last round if necessary why much of it can and should be thrown out of consideration by the voters or at the very least the comic source does not get the final word.

But I will of course treat them all as important sources to define our competing heroes of-course

good luck to my opponent as await your opening round
Debate Round No. 1


I am honored to be debating against one of the debaters I've most admired and thank him for accepting this debate.

I'd like to first set up the definitions for this debate.

Prime - A state or time of greatest strength, vigor, or success in a person's life. [1]

Vigilante - One who takes or advocates the taking of law enforcement into one's own hands. [2]

Now I will be talking about why Batman is definitely a better vigilante than Green Arrow.

I will give a list of Batman's superior abilities as arguments.

1. Indomitable Will. Batman has one amazing ability and that is his will. His willpower is extreme and almost superhuman. Batman was able to reject a Qwardian power ring which would have made him the Sinestro Corps representative of Sector 2814 because of his sheer willpower overriding the entire ring's power although previos exposure to a power ring was detected. [3] Another time he used his willpower was when he learned to unconsciously slow his bleeding through force of will which he learned from Sufi masters in which he used to treat bullet wounds. [4] Batman resisted the truth serum which is called the "most powerful truth serum ever created" despite Batman already being drugged. [5] When battling two evil hypnotists who came to Gotham City, The Thinker and the Cheat, they are unable to find any fear in the Batman and are easily disposed of even though they are two very powerful psychic villians. [6] Any more examples? Batman was able to keep J'onn J'onzz's brother out of his mind despide him having psychic powers equal to the Martian Manhunter. [7] This is something that separates him from anyone else and makes him a much better vigilante because of his willpower in his search for justice.

2. Intimidation. Batman is known for instilling fear into others and even many people he is "close" with are afraid of him. Scarecrow, one of Batman's greatest villians, said that only Batman had the ability to scare him which not even the undead could do so. He wanted to have Batman chase him just to feel fear again. [8] Another example is when Batman convinced Orion to follow his dispatching of teams instead of Orion's plans simply through intimidating him into doing what he believed was right. [9] In another period, Parallax senses a disciple because he is the cosmic entity of fear which turns out to be Batman and is why he was the 1st choice for recruitment. [10]

3. Peak Human Conditioning. "The Batman has went through intense training, strict diet, and biological treatments. The Batman represents the best human in physical attributes and his strength, speed, stamina, agility, reflexes, and coordination are at the peak of human potential. Batman has performed amazing physical feats due to his superior physique. He engaged in an intensive regular regimen of rigorous exercise (including aerobics, weight lifting, gymnastics, and simulated combat) to keep himself in peak condition, and has often defeated opponents whose size, strength, or other powers greatly exceeded his own. He has spent his entire life in pursuit of physical perfection and has attained it through constant intensive training and determination." [11]

A. Peak Human Strength

I'll just say that Batman regularly bench presses and lifts over 1,000 pounds. [12] He was also seen lifting an 1000 pound ceiling. [13] He also breaks a gun in half and easily breaks apart Deadshot's wrist gun gauntlets. [14] [15] My favorite is that he's knocked Killer Croc out in one punch. [16] I think it's pretty obvious that he's at the peak of human strength and nobody can match that.

I unfortunately am forced to end this awesome debate. In Round 3, I will be addressing all of the rest of his attributes but I am forced to conclude with only talking about his conditioning, willpower, and intimidation.





Green Lantern vol. 4 #17


Detective Comics #776


Sword of Azrael #3


Shadow of the Batman #67


JLA Classified #45


Blackest Night #6


JLA #33


Green Lantern Rebirth #5



Batman #655


Detective Comics #484


Gotham Knights #28


Legends of the Dark Knight #214


Batman 80-Page Giant #2


I thank my opponent for starting this debate and am flattered that I have your respect as a debater.
Since the first round is not for rebuttal I shall start by only laying out my case for the Green Arrow.

1) Everything batman has all in his quiver: Not sure if this line of argument will make much sense but I’m going to give it a shot. As we all know Green Arrow was created to be an arrow themed version of batman. Anything batman is known to pull out of his utility belt or keep in his cave Green Arrow has in the form of an arrow no matter how diverse a gizmo it is that batman has. This stays true from exploding batarangs to the grappling hook, the green arrow can do all those things strait out of his quiver. This by itself shows an incredible amount of raw talent when he can pull off a batman level of vigilantism but making sure no matter what it is that he needs to do, it is helped by his main key strength. A strength which by the way batman is not better at than the arrow nor anyone else alive in DCU, his aim.
2) Conner the martial arts master: Not all know this but Oliver Queen is not the only one to keep the Green Arrows vigilante career going on. Arguably Conner Hawke could potentially be considered the “Prime” of Green Arrows career. Why? Because Conner Hawke was a proven greater martial artist than Bruce Wayne or anyone else alive. This was due to his skill at mimicking others combat skills. . Admittedly this is not a strong case as most of my arguments will not be referring to Conner Hawks Career, but Oliver Queens. I ask my opponent and the voters to consider any Conner Hawk cases I make to be separate from my Oliver Queen ones. By this I mean while both kinds of arguments will need to be rebutted by my opponent eventually they do not strengthen each others case because they are about two different ‘Green Arrows’ at there prime who I am comparing to Batmans.
3) The Social Dynamic of the Green Arrow: unlike Batman, Green Arrows career at its prime has taken on not just a street level fight against crime and injustice, it has also professionally taken on the social problems of the Star City as a private Billionaire and more incredible as Mayor of his city that he protects. He was among the first heroes in comics to no longer be satisfied with saving a girl playing on the train tracks until he attacked the problem of why she had no safe place to play in the city. This is all part of his vigilante career because he takes on the whole infrastructure that feeds new people into the life of crime when he starts fighting the poverty and poor education that leads to it.
4) Green Arrow, Ladies Man: This one will might make you laugh but hear me out. Being a known womanizer he’s gotten to have A LOT OF FUN with many of DCU’s most attractive female vigilantes and also non-crime fighting attractive females as well. When a vigilante makes sure to include a healthy amount of this in there life it sustains there moral and fighting vigor quite well, preventing them from “burning-out” and going crazy creating a robot satellite to watch over and kill all there teammates they don’t trust anymore. Not to mention all of Ollie’s playing the field eventually led him to find a perfect match that he kept who now fights by his side in Star City, Black Canary. Can you imagine how much it would help Batmans career if he could go home to someone warmer than Alfred that knows about his double life and even lived that life with him? If Zatanna or Wonder Woman added to the Batmans war on crime in Gothem? It would be awesome. Well Green Arrows got that.
5) As we learned from Identity Crisis, Bats and Superman take on all the big name villains and when they stop them they move on to next crises. Green Arrow though has had much of his career defined by the clean-up process of after the messy battles. A very important part of a vigilante’s career

Well that’s enough for this round, I look forward to my opponents response.
Debate Round No. 2


I'd like to thank my opponent for accepting this debate again and will proceed to give a few new arguments and then the rebuttal.

B. Peak Human Agility, Peak Human Reflexes, and Peak Human Speed.

His agility is of better than that of the top gymnasts and acrobats in the world. His reflexes are comparable to a metahuman's and his speed is of better than the fastest humans after decades of training and experience. [1] I want to give some examples on why this makes him a much more superior vigilante. Batman is able to bypass a high-level security system even though Oracle mentions that there isn't a single human alive capable of breaking inside. However, he uses his agility, reflexes, and speed to move through a motion detector laser sequence that changes every thirty seconds. Not only does he do that but he flips himself onto his wall clinchers while avoiding the booby-trapped floor and ceiling pressure plates. Then, he proceeds to shut down the entire security system. [2] If that wasn't impressive enough, when all the Justice League members were turned into children, Batman was the sole person not caught by JLA security and used his agility, speed, and reflexes to evade it and manually shut the security system down even though the security system was co-designed by the greatest escape artist ever, Mr. Miracle. [3] If that is not impressive, Batman uses his agility, reflexes, and speed to catch an arrow shot by Green Arrow at his back without turning around which astonishes Green Arrow. [4] Now, if you still think this isn't that impressive, Batman was able to steal both Kyle Rayner's and Hal Jordan's Green Lantern power ring off their finger before they can react or even know what's happened. Without his amazing agility, reflexes, and speed, no human being is able to do such accomplishments. [5] [6] The final act is that he is able to deflect bullets from a machine gun using only his agility, reflexes, and speed. [7] His agility, reflexes, and speed is practically superhuman because he is literally the only human being who is able to do such feats.

4. Genius Intellect.
Batman is a genius and is regarded as one of the most analytical minds in the universe in which he is able to create brilliant plans instantly and consider all possibilities. "He's studied Biology, Technology, Mathematics, Physics, Mythology, Geography, and History. He's also gained degrees in Criminal Science, Forensics, Computer Science, Chemistry and Engineering by the time he was 21. He has mastered Diverse Environmental Training, Security Systems, and illusion/sleight of hand by the time he was 23. He gained even more degrees in Biology, Physics, Advanced Chemistry, and Technology by the time he was 25. He has learned Forensic, Medical Sciences, Expanded Computer and Engineering Sciences, and Expanded Device Pool use of personal powered armor and system, database creation on underworld crime bosses, rogue's gallery foes and metahumans. He improved material sciences for body armor and micro-machinery by the time he was 26. He has also learned Advanced New Development in Forensic and Medical Sciences." [1]

Due to lack of time, I will be giving some skills that make up who he is including a master detective, multi-lingual, escapologist, master strategist, expert tracker, master of disguise, crack pilot, and expert mechanic and driver. These all are part of who he is and he is at the top of the field in each one.


1) "Everything batman has all in in his quiver" - Your main contention is that the Green Arrow's aim is the best in all of the DCU because everything Batman has, Green Arrow has in his quiver to shoot which takes a large amount of raw talent. I will not dispute the fact that Green Arrow's markmanship is better than Batman. The reason is that Batman himself was trained by Green Arrow. [8] However, just because Green Arrow has one raw talent with his marksmanship and his arrows have everything Batman has from the utility belt or Batcave doesn't prove anything except that he's the best archer in the world.

2) "Connor the Martial Arts Master" - I will first ask where my opponent got the source about Connor Hawke being the best martial artist ever. On Wikipedia, I found that he can copy other people's martial arts fighting stules. However, this doesn't prove anything. Why? Connor can only copy the style he sees. Batman is a master of over 127 different styles of martial arts including "Muay Thai,Escrima, Krav Maga, Capoeira, Savate, Yawyan, Taekwondo, Judo, Jujitsu, Ninjitsu,Kendo, Fencing, Kenjutsu, Kali, Bojutsu, Francombat, Boxing, Kickboxing, Hapkido, Wing Chun, Parkour, Shorin Ryu, Silat, Chin Na, Hokuto Shinken, Kyudo, Aikido, Varma Ati, Jeet Kune Do, Shaolin, Ba Gua, Hung Gar, Tai Chi, Kung Fu, Kenpo, and Karate." I highly doubt that Connor Hawke is the better martial artist for the sole reason that very few people on Earth has practiced all of them.

3) Social Dynamic of the Green Arrow - To be honest, social dynamics doesn't make the Green Arrow a better vigilante. Why? A vigilante is supposed to take the law into his own hands instead of changing the law as a billionaire. This may make him the better person or the better hero but this doesn't make him the better vigilante.

4) Green Arrow, Ladies Man - This is very funny. However, this doesn't make anyone the better vigilante. It just makes him the better womanizer as Green Arrow. It doesn't change anything at all for vigilante even if it'd be "awesome."

5) I'm not sure what this means. Green Arrow's on clean-up duty and it's important? I apologize if I misunderstand it but I don't understand what you're saying. Are you saying that Batman never took out small-name villians? Please elaborate

A Request - I ask that my opponent give his sources for what he says. After all, I can't know if what he says is true without sources.

[2] Legends of the Dark Knight #188

Sin of Youth: JLA Jr. #1

[4] JLA 80-Page Giant #2

[5] The Batman Chronicles #15

[6] Justice League v2 #1

[7] Batman Confidential #33

[8] Green Arrow v2 #134


I’m not going to rebut the credentials my opponent has spent much time putting on Batman’s résumé. It cannot be disputed that batman has pushed himself greatly in his entire being of the body, mind, and the spirit. At least not with ease. Instead I’m going to focus on maintaining my case supporting the Green Arrow.

Also my opponent seems to think my main contention is about Green Arrows aim. I guess that’s cause I presented that case first, but it’s not my main one (and it’s not really about his aim but I’ll get to that) for that implies I consider it the strongest case and it’s not. So I’m going to reorder my points by priority this time so there’s no doubt how strong I consider any given argument.

1) Green Arrow-Mayor of Star City: the social politics advocate side of Oliver Queen was my strongest point. And I see I need to spend much more time explaining why if you think it does not hold weight on the resolution concerning who’s the better vigilante. My opponent contends the argument only supports him as a better hero, but not his effectiveness in the down and dirty duty of fighting crime on the streets. But it does.

In Jon Acuff’s book “Quitter”, a book to help people bridge the gap between their dream jobs and their day jobs, he speaks about how our day jobs can actually help our dream jobs (a). For example if you work at star bucks but want to be a financial advisor you can still use your Starbucks work experience to make yourself ready to be a financial advisor. You have plenty of people every day to learn how to deal with and you are also handling money. And this works in reverse as well. Jon Acuff writes about how he had a life changing experience when his wife told him ‘superman needed Clark Kent to stay connected to the world” and it made him look at his day job differently.

You might be asking ‘what does dream job stuff have to do with this debate?” Well lots. Consider the vigilante thing the dream job for both Bruce Wayne and Oliver Queen. And their public day life as playboy billionaires is their day job they have to do. While Bruce largely uses his alter ego mostly to just make the city suspect him of being able to be Batman the least, Oliver Queen is using it to change public policy, govern the city, build playgrounds, ect.

To truly make war against crime, you can’t just go find AL Capone and knock his teeth out, you have to remove the infrastructure that feeds him and every other crime lord ruling the streets of Gotham or Star City. This can include things that a hero can take care of in his cape like stopping guns from being transported to the bad guys, but there’s also things that feed crime like poor education that a mayor can do something about (b). While Batman is doing admirably fighting crimes infrastructure on the street level, Green Arrow has made himself versatile enough to fight its infrastructure with his public identity as well, for example ordering the Swat team to help back up his caped exploits or using the office to blackmail corrupt businessmen (c).

2) Green Arrow-married man: I did put the ‘ladies’ man’ point in mostly for laughs and to rev up the audiences perception of him as awesome, but its ironically my second strongest point when I focus on the fact that he has Black Canary as his spouse to come home to. When one has a spouse in their life in a healthy marriage (d&e) it can have revitalizing effects on all aspects of their life. Someone who can support them in things that tax their money, their time, and their spirit. And man with virtuous woman shall find no lack of gain (f) and it goes without saying you’ve got that if she’s a superhero with you too. Batman lives a much harder life without a warm lady to come home to after a hard days of skull bashing, nor one to support his big decisions like launching a satellite to spy on other superheroes (g) which he may have gotten some wise encouragement to not do that if he had Wonderwoman to encourage him not too.

3) The Clean up Process: by this I was referencing Brad Metzler’s Identity Crisis series (h&i). This series revealed much of what goes on behind the scenes at the end of the comic when the supervillian team is beat by the JLA. Batman and Superman and Wonderwoman take off right away to fight some other villain like the Joker or Luthor, leaving Green Arrow along with others (zatana, GL, flash, hawkman, elongated man, black canary) to figure out what to do with the supervillians that just almost got away with body snatching the superheroes, and definitely got away with their identities. They had to mindwipe them and they kept this to themselves, even when they mind wiped Dr Light, Catwoman, and Batman, 2 of those they altered the personalities of as well. This shows Green Arrow works at fighting crime and supervillians on more levels than Batman does, much like my case about his work as mayor of star city

4) Quiver=Versatility: my point about his quiver was not ultimately about his aim, though that is indisputably better than batman’s. It was about his versatility with just that one strength. To take something as mundane and seeming only useful in special situations and use to do all that batman can do with his gadgets is a impressive to speak of his raw talent in VERSATILITY, not aim. That is a very important trait to the overall effectiveness of any superhero and really defines the sum of all of Green Arrows advantages, versatile in how many fronts he fights the war on crime (behind the hero scenes, on the hero scenes, behind the mayors desk, behind the billionaires mansion)

5) Conner Hawk: I apologize, I did misread my own source, I though there was a reference to him beating batman in martial arts. Although it did say he went toe to toe with lady Shiva and the comic was written by author chuck Dixon for the pure purpose of establishing him as one of the world’s greatest martial artist. In a fight between the two one could make a case Conner could go toe to toe mimicking batman’s moves and even win after adaptively using them against him, and even some of lady shiva’s tricks that he might remember from his battle with her. Of course I don’t have to prove he can beat batman cause this debate is not about a fight between the two. Its about who’s a better vig.

Now for just one new argument

6) Comic Cannon: You naively put a huge focus on the sourcing in this debate. Problem is comic sources can have tricky effects on a debate even if its about the comics. Every auther change tends to change how they write the degree that a character is any particular way. One man writes him up to able to beat the whole justice league with ease quickly, the next he cant beat superman, even with kryptonite (right away), and if you try to figure out how old batman is using comics as a source, your head might explode with the contradictions (k) my point is I want you to take note that while I source comics to show you where I’m referencing a trait or event in the DCU, the sources I gave that have the most weight are the non-comic ones because they give weight to proving a point I was making for my case.

(a) (chapter 4)










Debate Round No. 3


First of all, I'd like to say that my opponent has conceded that my entire case is true which means that my arguments stand. However, this time is cross-examination so I will cross-examine my opponent.


1 - What did I define vigilante as in the 2nd round?

Follow-Up - Is writing a book about jobs "advocating or taking the law in one's own hands?"

Follow-Up - Did I define a vigilante as someone who is "effective in the down and dirty duty of fighting crime on the streets?"

Follow-Up - Is "changing public policy, governing a city, or building playgrounds, etc" as the mayor any part of "advocating or taking the law in one's own hands?"

Follow-Up - Is "making war against crime" as a mayor "advocating or taking the law in one's own hands?"

2 - How does being married help you take the law in your own hands?

Follow-Up - Are you saying that Green Arrow has a more powerful will than Batman because Green Arrow has a spouse?

Follow-Up - Are you saying that being married gives Gren Arrow more incentive to do what he does?

Follow-Up - How does having someone to support you make you a better vigilante?

Follow-Up - Is there anything wrong with being distrustful of others?

Follow-Up - Doesn't being distrustful of others make Batman a better vigilante because it allows him to be careful of taking the law in his own hands?

3 - How does cleaning up make Green Arrow the superior vigilante?

Follow-Up - How does Green Arrow cleaning up make him fight crime and supervillians on more leves than Batman does?

Follow-Up - How does any of this relate to being the vigilante?

4 - Are you saying that Green Arrow's talent with one area makes him incredible?

Follow-Up - Is it just that because he has great versatility in one area that it makes him a superior vigilante?

Follow-Up - If this is so, then doesn't Batman's versatility in detective work, analyation, observation, etc. make him the superior vigilante?

5 - How does Conner Hawke's ability in martial arts make him the superior vigilante?

6 - How did I put a huge focus on the sourcing in this debate?

Follow-Up - I asked for more sources because you only gave two sources, so is asking for a few more sources naively putting a huge foucus on the sourcing in the debate?

Follow-Up - We're not getting any details of what happened, we're bringing up individual events that can prove his talent so how is it that it can be contradicted?

Follow-Up - How did your two non-comic sources have more weight compared than my eleven comic and non-comic sources?

I thank my opponent for having a brilliant time with this debate.


Marauder forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4


Well,it is very unfortunate. My opponent Maikuru forfeited this round. I will state that according to Rule #3 which my opponent accepted states that people must accept to the debate order. Any failure to do results in the loss of the entire debate. Vote Pro.


Marauder forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by ishallannoyyo 4 years ago
Won't the continued use of a bow and arrow mess up Green Arrow's arm eventually?
Posted by Marauder 4 years ago
GGHAAAH! i thought I had more time :/ Im so so so so so so so so so ultra sorry for forfeiting.
Posted by Viper-King 4 years ago
Me too.
Posted by Marauder 4 years ago
also I'm very much enjoying this debate so far.
Posted by Marauder 4 years ago
I put the conner hawke case in and source for it without having read it recently. I thought I had remembered reading it years ago that there was a contest and conner beat even batman in it. I completely misremembered. I almost decided to drop the conner argument all together but I thought of a way to spin what was on it in a close enough way to what I originally wanted to argue with it.
Posted by Maikuru 4 years ago
This one is kind of duh.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by RyuuKyuzo 3 years ago
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Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: Rule 3
Vote Placed by AlwaysMoreThanYou 4 years ago
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Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: Rule 3