The Instigator
The_Newt
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
MrVan
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

DC is less interesting than Marvel

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/11/2013 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,185 times Debate No: 31179
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (5)
Votes (0)

 

The_Newt

Pro

Strength in combat is not the most important factor, and my competitor is required to use examples of comics when necessary. No ad hominem moves, movies and other sources can also be used.

Marvel is, in my opinion, more interesting, because it has a greater selection of characters, including characters such as Dr. Strange (who has his own comic and animated series), the X-men, arguably have a much greater variety of characters, including Nightcrawler, Wolverine and other favourites. Also, though DC characters have a greater amount of power, Marvel has a greater variety of characters. My prime example is the Justice League:

Superman: Flight, Speed, Strength and Endurance (also incredible vision and a weakness to kryptonite)
Flash: Speed (Also time-travel)
Wonder Woman: Speed (only reflexes) Endurance, Strength and Flight
Cyborg: Strength (also access to every computer in the world and teleportation)
Green Lantern: Strength, Flight, Speed (Also making nearly anything with his mind)
Martian Manhunter: Strength (Also walking through walls, telepathy and shapeshifting)
Hawkgirl: Flight, Strength (Also negating magic)

As you will see there are a lot of common powers amongst them. And their unique powers are much greater than Marvel characters, making their opponents repetitive and equally overpowered. Therefore, Marvel, which has huge stories about persecution (Superhero Registration etc.) and removing powers (X-men 3: Last Stand) whereas DC's are about omnipotent people battling other omnipotent people (Anti-monitor, Lex Luthor, Darkseid and others) which quickly gets boring.
MrVan

Con

First off, I would like to thank my opponent for starting such an interesting debate. I agree to all of his terms and conditions, and expect him to abide by them as well. In this debate, my opponent must be able to prove that DC Comics is less interesting than Marvel, while I'll defend and promote the position that it's either equal or superior. I will be defining DC comics as any comic, comic book, or graphic novel owned by DC Comics or their respective imprints (Vertigo, Piranha Press, Wildstorm, etc.). The same goes for Marvel. I wish my opponent the best of luck!

My opponent claims that DC doesn't have as wide a variety of characters as Marvel, and goes on to present a cherry picked list of iconic characters to back his case. However, as iconic as the characters listed are, they don't even make up a small fraction of DC's very colorful cast of heroes. Booster Gold, for instance, is an ordinary man from the future who makes use of technology stolen from a superhero museum in the future and his knowledge of the past to become a 20th century hero[1]. Watchman's Rorschach is a psychopathic, right-wing nutjob who isn't afraid to kill in the name of his own twisted interpretation of justice[2]. Even Wonder Woman has an interesting history as a character, being cast into man's world after a stranded WWII pilot tells her of the horror's of the Nazi regime[3]. On the other end of the gender spectrum, you have Yorick Brown from Y: The Last Man, who is the sole human survivor of a plague that wipes out every mammal with a Y chromosome[4].

I'd argue that DC is actually doing a better job at fleshing out it's characters and writing it's comics than Marvel, which has been focusing more on film lately. The storyline involving Peter Parker's death and his body's possession by Dr. Octopus[5] was the worse thing to come out of Spider-man since that whole clone debacle in the 90's [6]. Of course, it's not surprising, especially when you consider that the main Spider-man arch was getting outdone by Ultimate Spider-man, which takes place in an ulternate universe. DC Comics, however, has recently a very successful and critically acclaimed story arch involving the Green Lantern (Blackest Night)[7]. Batwoman has also been garnering a lot of praise from critics
recently[8].

My opponent's assertion that DC's stories are just about "omnipotent people battling other omnipotent people" is just simply wrong. Batman (also the star of his own, critically acclaimed, animated series and numerous films) is a primary example of a very mortal and very breakable hero who's had to prove himself amongst his superpowered comrades with his mental prowess. Also consider the stories under DC Comic's Vertigo imprint, most of which touch on subject matter like sexism (Y: The Last Man)[4], American politics (DMZ)[9] (Transmetropolitan)[10], religion (Preacher)[11], and even animal rights (Animal Man)[12]. Characters like Spider Jerusalem, Yorick Brown, Matty Roth, and John Constantine often find themselves at the whim of forces beyond their control (from Presidents to the super-natural).

SOURCES:
[1]http://www.ign.com...
[2]http://www.empireonline.com...
[3]http://community-2.webtv.net...
[4]http://www.ign.com...
[5]http://www.huffingtonpost.com...
[6]http://comicbookdb.com...
[7]http://www.comicbookresources.com...
[8]http://www.comicbookresources.com...
[9]http://www.ign.com...
[10]http://graphicnovelreporter.com...
Debate Round No. 1
The_Newt

Pro

As I said earlier on, movies and other sources are also very significant. In this footing Marvel has been far more successful, with the Avengers movie grossing hundreds of millions, a clear sign that people are interested by the story (in another format). I will concede that certain comics from DC have had interesting characters, but I believe that Booster Gold's most significant recent comic was the new 52 JLI series, in which he co-starred with Batman, a Green Lantern and a woman with magic hair. And in total the plot was essentially that a new team was needed, that some people with explosives didn't want a new team and that they saved the world from aliens. This doesn't seem particularly inventive. Also, simply because Marvel has been producing less interesting plot lines recently does not mean that they have not produced interesting plot lines in the past, such as Secret Invasion and Siege. Simply because currently Spiderman is uninteresting, that doesn't mena he has not been involved in fascinating plot lines recently Also, I went for 'iconic characters' because those are the ones that represent DC the most, in my opinion. Also the creator of Rorschach claimed that he had made the character to mimic Steve Ditko, who (despite working on numerous DC comics) worked originally on famous Marvel characters such as Spiderman and Dr Strange. Also, I agree that DC has characters 'at the whim of forces beyond their control' but I do not see why that makes them interesting. If anything I feel it makes them seem boring. Who follows the adventure of a supervillan's chew-toy? Marvel also looks at the nature of human rights and what counts as human in the X-men, and looks at a dystopian world frequently in the Age of Apocalypse.
MrVan

Con

I agree with my opponent about Marvel's successful experimentation in big screen film and it's introduction of the Marvel cinematic universe. However, though Marvel excells past DC in theatres, DC's foray onto the big screen has been anything but a failure. The character Batman has starred in eleven theatrical films since 1943, seven of which were critically successful[1][2][3][4][5][6][7]. Also consider other successful films featuring DC characters, including Superman[8], Superman II[9] (including the Richard Donner cut), V for Vendetta[10] (I'm counting this because Vertigo publishes the comic in the US), Constantine[11] (this is admittedly more of a cult favorite), RED[12], Road to Perdition[13], and A History of Violence[14] (which recieved universal critical acclaim). These examples also illustrate that DC properties are more flexible with other genres than Marvel films, which are more confined to the superhero genre.

While Marvel has recently found dominance over DC within the theatres, DC has reigned over Marvel in the fields of Animation since the early 90s. My first, and most obvious, example of this is the DCAU (DC animated universe), which has provided us with greats like Batman: The Animated Series, Batman Beyond, Static Shock, and the Justice League[15]. It should also be noted that through the DCAU, we've been introduced to great, memorable characters like Terry McGinnis[16] and fan favorite, Harley Quinn[17]. DC's success isn't only limited to the DCAU, however. Shows like Teen Titans, Young Justice, and Green Lantern: The Animated Series finding a large fan base amongst new and old fans of the characters that star in them[18]. DC also hosts a lot more memorable animated films than Marvel under it's DC Universe Original Movies project[19]. Wonder Woman, Under the Red Hood, and Justice League: The New Frontier come to mind, and while there are a few bad movies like Superman/Batman: Apocalypse, these are only a minority of the films in the project. The DCAU itself has four films, three of which are extremely good, extremely memorable, and extremely well performed.

Before I get into my opponent's positions on Rorschach and underdog characters, I'd like to touch on this whole "iconic characters" issue real quickly as well. While most of these iconic characters might seem generic, I think we need to keep in mind just why they are so generic. These characters, being some of the first superheroes, are not just iconic to DC, but the superhero genre as a whole. They're going to seem more generic and steriotypical because they are the originals and act as the template for the superhero archetype. This especially applies to Superman, Wonderwoman, the Flash, and Hawkgirl. Cyborge and the Martian Manhunter, on the other hand, are much more original, and can thank their rise in popularity to DC's animated series more than anything else.

Onto Rorschach and underdogs! My opponent is correct, Alan Moore's character Rorschach was based on Steve Ditko's characters and the objectivist politics they often represented, specifically Mr. A and the Question. While some of Ditko's best work was with Spider-Man, neither Mr. A or the Question are Marvel Characters. In fact, the Question was originally the property of Charlton Comics until it went out of business and sold the character to DC in 1983 [20]. Ever since, the Question has appeared in DC comics and the DCAU, effectively making him a DC character. This would mean that Rorschach is, at least partially, based off a DC character, even if it's creator used to work for Marvel. I must disagree with my opponent's opinion that characters against more powerful forces makes for a boring narrative. It's not simply about the hero being a villain's "chew-toy", it's about them coping or overcoming insurmountable odds or situations. Not only does this make the protagonist more empathetic, it makes them more heroic! After all, what's more heroic than daring to challenge almost certain death? Let's also take into account that there are generic power fantasies within' DC as well, Superman for example. Recently, writers have focused more on his humanity and personal struggles, rather than his physical ones.

I look forward to the next three rounds!

SOURCES:
[1]http://www.rottentomatoes.com...
[2]http://www.rottentomatoes.com...
[3]http://www.rottentomatoes.com...
[4]http://www.rottentomatoes.com...
[5]http://www.rottentomatoes.com...
[6]http://www.rottentomatoes.com...
[7]http://www.rottentomatoes.com...
[8]http://www.rottentomatoes.com...
[9]http://www.rottentomatoes.com...
[10]http://www.rottentomatoes.com...
[11]http://www.rottentomatoes.com...
[12]http://www.rottentomatoes.com...
[13]http://www.rottentomatoes.com...
[14]http://www.rottentomatoes.com...
[15]http://dcanimated.wikia.com...
[16]http://www.worldsfinestonline.com...
[17]http://dcanimated.wikia.com...
[18]http://www.bcdb.com...
[19]http://warnervideo.com...
[20]http://www.powerofcomics.com...;
Debate Round No. 2
The_Newt

Pro

I must agree with my opponent's view that DC has been successful across multiple genres, but this does not prove that it is more interesting. This also applies for the DCAU, which is aimed at introduce people to the DC universe's comics, and is the cause of many characters' 'rise in popularity,' just as much as appeal to existing fans. Also the 'iconic characters' are the templates, and therefore more interesting for their reflection on comic history, and for their (actually quite interesting) villans. Marvel has also had numerous animated series, which are also reasonably interesting.

Also, my opponent admitted that some of his 'underdogs' are in fact based on other DC characters. I would like to point out that this reinforces my view that some of the DC characters are stereotypical (even if they created the stereotype). On another level, Marvel also has underdog characters, like the X-Men, who are almost totally rejected by society.

On the level of interesting non-physical struggles, I would like to commend Ant-Man, who struggles with mental issues and leaves the Avengers, and Ronin, who has gone through numerous identities. They also have characters like the Eternals, which have fascinating journeys in self discovery, or Elektra who is constantly resurrected.
MrVan

Con

I respectfully disagree with my opponent. As stated before, though Marvel has been more successful in film, it hasn't really branched out a lot from the superhero genre. DC Comics, on the other hand, offers us wider spectrum of genres when it comes to theatrical films based off of their characters and properties. The acception to this is, of course, is the X-Men, and that's about it as far as film is concerned. Most Marvel films, however, amount to nothing more than fun roller coaster rides with very little substance. In other words, The Avengers was a fun roller coaster ride of a movie, but it wasn't as interesting or wall-breaking as A History of Violence or V for Vendetta was. So, as far as variety in film goes, DC is much more interesting, just not as financially successful.

While Marvel has made a few good animations, and yes, some of them are good, none of them are as iconic or well remembered as DC's. The villains of the Batman cartoon alone probably make up some of the most colorful, interesting cast of villainry in cartoon history. From the murderous phychopath known as the Joker and his dangerous girlfriend, to Mr. Freeze's retro-styled armor and questionably morality. The most iconic Marvel animation is without a doubt the crudely animated 1967 Spider-Man cartoon, which can owe a large amount of it's fame to it's theme song and the Spider-Man internet meme. Other than that though, it's not really something that's all that interesting to a modern viewership.

Another medium outside of sequential artwork where I think DC proves more interesting than Marvel would have to be video games. Besides a few decent crossovers with Capcom and that one good Spider-Man game from 2002, Marvel hasn't really presented anything good (or interesting) in recent memory. DC, on the other hand, has offered us two critically praised Batman games[1][2], a fairly successful and well recieved MMO[3], and two fun Lego: Batman games[4][5].

On underdogs on Rorschach, I'd like to make a clarification. I never said that any of DC's underdogs were based off of DC characters. I specifically said that the character Rorschach, who was hardly an underdog dispite a some-what sad origin story, was partially based off of the the Question, a DC character. Most of DC's "underdog" characters that come to my mind, like Matty Roth, Spider Jerusalem, and Yorick Brown, are original characters in their own right. While Marvel may have a few interesting underdogs, like the X-Men or Ant-Man, the narratives they present aren't usually as good as DC narratives. Specifically, those stories from the DC imprint, Vertigo.

SOURCES:

[1]http://www.gamerankings.com...
[2]http://community.batmanarkhamcity.com...
[3]http://www.gamespot.com...
[4]http://www.gamespot.com...
[5]http://www.digitalspy.com...
Debate Round No. 3
The_Newt

Pro

The_Newt forfeited this round.
MrVan

Con

My opponent has forfeited the fourth round, and cannot respond to any of my arguments or rebuttals to his arguments.
Debate Round No. 4
The_Newt

Pro

The_Newt forfeited this round.
MrVan

Con

My opponent has, again, forfeited. My arguments still stand unchallenged.

Vote Con.
Debate Round No. 5
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by MrVan 4 years ago
MrVan
Mmmm, well, that was a kick to the stomach.
Posted by MrVan 4 years ago
MrVan
"Underdogs on Rorschach"
That's an embarrassing typo. >.<
Posted by The_Newt 4 years ago
The_Newt
This is the second debate I have had, but honestly that one wasn't serious, so I guess we're on equal ground! ;)
Posted by MrVan 4 years ago
MrVan
I look forward to your move! Thanks for being my first debate on this site! :)
Posted by tyler.schillim 4 years ago
tyler.schillim
DC is less interesting. Take Superman for example, he has the basic boring powers ever thought of, who also can harness the energy of the Sun and cannot be beat, so that is an immediate turn off because then why make someone that cannot be beat knowing he would win every time. BORING!!! Last but not least, he can be killed by a rock. Are you kidding me!
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