The Instigator
Pro (for)
7 Points
The Contender
Con (against)
14 Points

DDO is a better debate site than Edeb8

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Post Voting Period
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Voting Style: Open with Elo Restrictions Point System: Select Winner
Started: 9/8/2014 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,216 times Debate No: 61442
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (17)
Votes (3)





This debate is for Larz's World Online Debate Cup Tournament. Also, there is a 1,500 minimum ELO required to vote on this debate.


DDO- [1]

Edeb8 - Edeb8 [2]

better - of superior quality or excellence [3]


1. No forfeits
2. Any citations or foot/endnotes must be provided in the text of the debate
3. No new arguments in the final round
4. Maintain a civil and decorous atmosphere
5. Violation of any of these rules or of any of the R1 set-up merits a loss


R1: Acceptance
R2: Constructives
R3: Rebuttals
R4: Rebuttals and Closings





Thank you Arc for setting this debate up.

At a little over 1 year old, is still a fledgling debate site but with its many features and the high emphasis it places on debate, it is our* contention that it is the superior site for debate.
In making this statement, I'd like to make it clear that we are assuming a share of the burden of proof for this debate.

I have no objection to the definitions as set out by my opponent and happily accept this debate!

*I'm actually just posturing. There's no "us", it's just me over here.
Debate Round No. 1



I thank nzlockie for accepting this debate and Larz for making this tournament possible.

DDO and edeb8 are both great debating sites and share some history. They are not the same, though, so a comparison can be made.
I will present my case in this round.


1. Popularity

It's usually argued that popularity should not be an argument for quality because the fact that something is more popular than other thing doesn't mean that it has superior quality. This is true most of the time, but in the case of debating, a good amount of debaters is necessary.

- More people means more debaters and debates

This is important in a debating site. If we were talking about games like Chess or some videogames, we would only need another player.
But in the case of debating, because the possible debates have a really wide range of categories and topics, it's necessary to have a good amount of debaters. Now, it's not necessary for a site to have more debaters than the other for this to be critical.

But in the case of DDO and edeb8, the amount of debaters is considerable.
This is evidenced by the amount of open debates on each site (1) (2) and active debates (3) (2)

For those unfamiliar with edeb8, there are only 2 active debates. The rest are randomly generated but they doesn't have any active debater on them.

- More people means more voters and votes

This is more important than the last part. Even if there are few debates, the existent debates require votes.
A site with enough debaters, that are experienced enough to read a debate and analyze it to determine who the winner is, will have enough voters to determine which debater is the rightful winner.

A debate with few votes won't have a reliable result.

- Reasons of popularity

Now, it could be argued that the popularity is totally unrelated to the quality of the site, specially in this case where I have not mention features of the site yet.

First, I will mention the reason I found first instead of edeb8.
One day I was bored and wanted to discuss some topics for fun. I don't debate in real life and it's difficult to find someone to debate here, so I googled "debate". And that's it.

The name of DDO is an important reason for it's popularity. Edeb8 is a clever name, but Google won't show me in the results if I search for debate. It will actually show me several times and some wikipedia results.

Now, other debaters may have other reasons. Maybe they found the site because a friend told them, which is a result of popularity.

Another good reason is that the site has features other than the debates.
Like the forums (that edeb8 also has), polls, opinions, etc.

And sure, these are not debates, but a huge source of debaters come from this features.
There were some debaters suggestions for a separation of debates and opinions/polls, but they didn't change it because of popularity.
People came here because they wanted tell their opinions to the world and create some discussion and found a bigger site with awesome things to do like debating and voting for debates.

It´s true that the quality of the site should not be determined by the it's name or non-debate features, but the point here is that those features are what makes popular and this is important for a debate site.

2. DDO has fewer bugs than Edeb8

This is probably because DDO has more time working and more users to call attention to those bugs.
And it's true that Edeb8's admin makes an huge effort to fix those bugs, but right now, you can find fine little bugs on Edeb8 almost each visit you make.

I myself helped on the fix on some bugs, but I only ask the admin to fix really important bugs that affect the experience of the site.

- Bugs that I found in the last 5 minutes

So I looked for bugs for this debate only. In DDO I found zero. In Edeb8 I tried to make a random search I got this result. This is a bug. I'm pretty sure this is not intended.

Remember that this is just an small example of what I can find. Bigger bugs can appear time to time.

3. Reason for Votes

First, in DDO, depending of the choices you make when setting a debate, an RFD is necessary for a vote to count.
If someone does not follow this rule, his vote is invalidated.
This is a necessary feature to avoid biased voting to some extend. Bias always exists while voting, but it makes it more difficult for the voter to just vote without giving his reasons.

In Edeb8, the amount of points someone receives depend on the amount of things you write, even if you repeat yourself or give further reasons to points you already explained.

If you wanted to compare this to DDO, that would be like giving reasons for arguments in DDO, and then giving more reasons for argument but counting points for sources and S&G. This is not an analogy, this is just a way to explain it to people that is not familiar with Edeb8.

Giving points for the size of your RFD is not a bad idea, the problem comes because there are other reasons those points are being given.



Thanks again to nzlockie for the debate. I will post more in the next round.


Thank you PRO for your opening arguments. In keeping with the format for this debate, I'd like open our side of the case by outlining the reasons we believe that Edeb8 is a superior site for debate than DDO.
My opponent has brought up three major points in his round, which I will address directly in my next round.

The Resolution: Better FOR DEBATE
Before we start, I'd like to remind us all what exactly we are debating. Everyone is here because they are, at some level, a fan of debate. We are, rather appropriately, using the medium of debate to ascertain which of two possible sites provides the best environment to host an online debate.
It's entirely logical that we begin by establishing the criteria for this - what exactly constitutes the "best environment" for online debate?
My intention is to present these criteria and then use them to compare Edeb8 and DDO.

PEOPLE: This one is obvious. If Debate is a solo sport, then you are doing something wrong. We need people if we are going to have a good debate site. But what how many people do we need? Does more actually equal better?
My contention is that in fact the quality of the people FAR outweighs the sheer numbers.

- The Numbers:
Edeb8 is a relatively new site and has already accumulated over 180 users. Of these there are between 18 and 30 "Active Users". This stat is dynamic and will refresh constantly. This means between 10-18% of the total member base is active. By contrast, although there are 185,714 members on DDO, the percentage of those that is actually active is abysmally low. At time of writing, only 1,237 of those had checked in in the last three days. That's slightly less than 0.7% of the total membership.

- The Quality:
This is an important point for my side, given that the resolution; so I'll be picking this up again later, however it's important to note the quality of the people who are members of the site. To date, almost every member of Edeb8 is there because they either want to debate, or because they are looking for debate. By contrast, DDO has numerous forum threads, such as this one [1] detailing the number of members who have joined up purely to post spam. Also, even my opponent admits that many new members are attracted to DDO , not for debate, but for the Opinions and Polls sections.

- The Range:
JUST LIKE DDO, Edeb8 has a wide cross section of humanity within its membership. People of different ages, genders, religions, political ideologies and nationalities are represented. It is not range we are short on, and in fact having less people total can actually be a good thing. It forces us to interact with eachother on a regular basis and discuss our differences. These often lead to some excellent debates.

It is more than fair to say that Edeb8 has ENOUGH people and in fact, a good case could be made that DDO has too many people.

DEBATE TOPICS: The second criteria is obvious. We need something to debate. Like DDO, Edeb8 provides the ability for any member to propose a debate on any topic. Like DDO, they can do this through a private challenge to another member or to an open challenge where anyone can accept. But UNLIKE DDO, Edeb8 actually stimulates debate by...

- Random Topics: These are randomly generated debates, the resolution of which has been taken from a constantly updated list of actual competition resolutions. This ensures that both sides are equally arguable and the resolutions are written in such a way as to eliminate a lot of the semantic arguments. The topics are also topped up with moderated resolutions nominated from the membership.
We have found that this method has been hugely successful. In almost every case, the resulting debate has been thoughtful and competitive, thanks to a well written resolution.

- Secret Topics: There is perhaps no purer challenge for a debater than to challenge another to a debate where they don't even know the resolution before they start. These debates can be generated by the users or randomly by the site.
Thanks to secret debates, I have found myself arguing a wide range of topics that I might never have accepted otherwise. It has been a hugely successful experiment and a lot of fun.

DEBATE STYLES: The most successful site for Debate should surely be the one that gives the user the option of creating a debate in whatever style and structure suits them! This criteria alone should decide this entire debate!
Edeb8's customisation is its single greatest strength. Here is just a sample:
- Video debates.
- Team Debates.
- British Parl Debates.
- Quick Debates. (Very Limited character count)
- Cross Examination Rounds. An entire round of quickfire Q&A, built seamlessly into the debate!
- Reply Speeches. This means nobody has to leave their last round blank!
- Limited to Unlimited character counts. (UNLIMITED character counts.)
- Comprehensive rules and definitions on each debate. This means the first round doesn't have to be for acceptance! Hallelujah!

To be very clear - these styles are not work-arounds, these are actual options which you can set when you create your debate.

- I'd love to write this in colour but DDO doesn't let me! Edeb8 does!
- ClassicRobert would love to print this debate off or export it to pdf so that he can read it! DDO STILL doesn't allow this, but Edeb8 does!
- You can even click a button at the bottom of a debate and have the entire thing read out to you by the computer! Try doing a rap battle on Edeb8 - it's awesome!

I was not exaggerating when I said this was the most important criteria when judging which site is the better debate site. Edeb8 caters for a debate experience that most mirrors the real world, while also allowing for the technological advantages of doing so online.

USABILITY: This criteria is critical to what makes a good debate site. I actually think that both sites do this reasonably well, although users are naturally going to favour the familiar. Despite this, Edeb8 does have some advantages...

- Auto Save: I'm risking everything here typing my argument out directly into my browser. If something happens, my whole argument may be lost. Edeb8 auto saves your argument AS YOU TYPE IT. If the computer crashes during the typing - fear not! It has been saved and will appear like magic the next time you log on. Oh My God. If you are a regular user here, just dwell on that for a second.

JUDGING: As my opponent has attacked this in his round, I'll speak more to this in rebuttal.

Conclusion: Edeb8 mirrors real life debate far better than DDO does and is therefore a better site on which to conduct your next debate. The following are just some of the accusations against DDO:
DDO is too cluttered with non-debate related stuff. [2]
DDO's admin is not debate focused.
DDO does not have as high quality of debate

Debate Round No. 2



1. People

Con here addresses the popularity and community topic by differentiating quality and quantity and claiming "quality of the people FAR outweighs the sheer numbers".

It is true to some extent that quality is more important than quantity. The issue in this case is that the comparison should not be about who has more members. If DDO right now had 1000 less members, there would not be much of a difference. There would be a lot of challenges, a lot of debates, and a lot of discussions in the forums. The community would still be big enough to have those things that people like about DDO.

The point is that Edeb8 right now doesn't have enough members to present you with the better experience compared to DDO. I don't know how many members a site needs to provide you with a nice experience, it would probably depend on the amount of active members and the topics you like to debate, but it's clear that a debater can't enjoy a good amount of features if the community in question doesn't allow you that

- The Numbers

In this part, Con presents some numbers. He didn't provide a source for those numbers. I hope he can provide those in later rounds, but let's assume *for this round* that they are accurate. I'm not sure what's Con's point with this one.

He is comparing percentages even when he later accepts that some DDO users use the opinions or poll sections only.
And as I stated, it's not about having more debaters, but enough debaters.

- The Quality

Here Con seems to claim that the Edeb8's community has a greater quality than DDO's one.
He claims that almost every member of Edeb8 is there because they want to debate or are looking for debates in contrast of DDO where there is a lot of new members that are trying the site. He also attacks the fact that there are spammers in the site.
It's true that spam is a disadvantage of popularity, but the content you can find in DDO definitely outweighs that little disadvantage that you may find once in a while in unpopular forums.

And yes, I "admitted" some users use Opinions and Polls. I don't see how that is a problem.

- The Range

Con claims that there is a wide range of users in Edeb8 and the fact that there are few members is good because they are forced to interact with each other on a regular basis. This is actually possible in DDO too. The fact that there are a lot of debates and debaters is not an issue in DDO.

You can interact with active members, not so active members, people that doesn't agree with you on a topic or people that agree with you on a topic.
You have a really popular games forum where you can play when you are not debating, or the rest of the forums where you can discuss casually a lot of different topics.

And of course, the hangouts that are frequented by really active members on the site. Here they talk and discuss. This is only possible in a site with enough members.

And sure, Edeb8 has it's forum too, but they are not as active and as productive as DDO's counterpart.
And no, it's not fair to say that Edeb8 has enough members. I addressed this in my case.

2. Debate Topics

Here Con starts a discussion about debate topics

- Random Topics

Random topics is just a solution for the lack of challenges. It doesn't replace the challenges of topics people DO want to debate.

- Secret topics

This is another feature Con claims stimulates debaters.

First, there were only 19 automatic secret topic debates in the site until now.
If you use the next link ( and replace the last N for a number you will get the secret topic debate you want. and ( is a debate without debaters, so it's not active.

My first example is a debate for this same tournament. A random and secret topic is used if necessary for debates, which is a nice solution that solves some time problems but may have some bigger issues sometimes. This is not automatic random topic debate so it's not part of the 19 mentioned, but it uses the same idea.

Because people receive a secret topic, they sometimes find themselves in a position where they don't have enough knowledge or they just don't know any good argument for the topic. Sometimes they are strongly attached to the opposite position and debates just don't go well. [1]

Notice that in that debate, the Pro side also claims that a bug caused his round to be deleted and he lost confidence because of the random topic and the bug, which complements my second round.

This also happened to me. I tested the random topic opening several debates with those topics. One of them got accepted after several days and got a topic I didn't know anything about. I agree that I knew what I was getting into and is mostly my fault and I forfeited the first round. I tried posting in the second round but my round didn't get posted. The proof of that is in the comments.[2]

Several debates from the group of 19 also had issues [3], so it's false that it has been a hugely successful experiment. It definitely increases the amount of debates by avoiding the thinking process of selecting a resolution and accepting a challenge, but it has a lot of other issues right now.

3. Debate Styles

Here Con claims that this argument alone should decide the debate.
I have to disagree here. I believe that the community DDO built around the site is a very important aspect of the site and the reason people don't leave DDO, even after claiming they are leaving for good.

And Con also claims that those are not workarounds, which is true, but the fact that there are easy workarounds in DDO makes Con's argument less relevant.

In fact, there are more Video debates in DDO in the last 3 months than in Edeb8 in all its history.
This also happens with team debates. Actually, I was not able to find a single team debates in Edeb8.
Quick debates are possible in DDO.
Cross examination is indeed a nice feature, but I don't think this is enough to make a significant difference.
Unlimited characters are totally unnecessary. That's like giving a person unlimited time in a debate.
The color feature is also unnecessary.
The PDF feature is also nice, but not enough in the weighting.

4. Usability

Here Con presents one more feature.
My rebuttal for this is that you can also risk "everything" in the Edeb8's case. That's exactly what happened to me [2].
I usually write things in a program in my computer, in BOTH sites.


Edeb8 has really nice features in general, but the amount of users is still the critical factor that differentiate both sites.
DDO, even without having some features has more examples of those features than Edeb8.
By the way, your second and third source can't be opened.


3. (replace N by 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, 11, 12, 13 and 16)

I thank Nzlockie for this round and all the debate. I will explain more in the next rounds. I ran out of space on this one.


I thank my opponent for his round. As per the structure for this debate, in this round I will be offering rebuttal.

Popularity: "It's usually argued that popularity should not be an argument for quality because the fact that something is more popular than other thing doesn't mean that it has superior quality. This is true most of the time, but in the case of debating, a good amount of debaters is necessary." ~ PRO, 1st Round
This was my opponent's opening paragraph in his first constructive, and I have to say, I agree with this entirely.
Popularity on the internet comes and goes. How popular a debate site is does not make it a better debate site EXCEPT that it needs to be popular enough to attract enough people to debate, and good quality debaters.
So the real question here is, do both sites meet these criteria?

My argument is that YES they do. Think about it. If you are having a serious debate, how many of those can you have at any given time? On Edeb8, we currently have one member attempting to conduct 6 debates at the same time. He is really struggling and recently had to concede that Rugby is superior to American Football because he ran out of time! By this logic, we can assume that the total pool does not need to be thousands to sustain a membership such as the one we have there currently. Many successful debate clubs have around 10 to 15 members. Finally, there is always the option of challenging members of another online debate site - such as we are doing right now.
In short, both sites have the requisite number of people to hold a debate.
When it comes to quality, again, both sites have debaters with the requisite level of skill so that anyone could have a stimulating and challenging debate.
The difference here is that DDO as a site attracts a huge range of people who are NOT there for debate. They are there to answer polls, play Mafia and spam forums. Edeb8 has none of these people, (although the facility IS there to play Mafia if anyone wanted to.)
In short, both sites clearly have debaters of high quality.

Having established that both sites meet the criteria, popularity ceases to be a factor. The Toyota Corolla is a more popular car than an Aston Martin DB9. Doesn't make it better.

On Voting: Since RFD is such an important factor on Edeb8, you will find that almost every debate has very detailed and constructive feedback from the judges. A huge amount of emphasis is placed on judging on Edeb8 and I can honestly say that as a complete newbie, I am the better for it. DDO has some great judges as well. Raisor and Blade-of-Truth seem to crop up on every debate I can find on this site. They are fantastic and DDO is lucky to have them. Unfortunately DDO also attracts a huge number of bad judges. They treat the voting section as if it were a poll or opinion and often don't even read the debate.

Bugs: I'll keep this brief so as to keep my word limit down.
Edeb8, like DDO and every other site, has bugs. I showed my opponent's bug to the admin and niether he or I could recreate it. I challenge any judge in this debate to try and recreate it. A large number of the "bugs" my opponent has mentioned are almost certainly user error.
In one of the debates he's mentioned, he even admits that it was likely his fault.

(I separated the images so that I could fit it all on this page.)

As far as DDO's bugs are concerned, the one I'm going with is the fact that I tried three times from two different countries to get myself verified to vote on this site and got NOTHING. The system did not work, I received no reply from the tech support. The only way I got verified was by Airmax magically waving his wand!
By contrast, Edeb8's Admin fixes most bugs within hours of the initial complaint.

All sites have bugs. A site with an Admin who fixes said bugs quickly and efficiently is better than a site with an Admin who never replies.

Number Sources: Speaking of bugs - I have no idea why some of my sources don't work anymore. They are links to internal pages within DDO's forums and were working when I posted them. Wierd.
The sources for my numbers are from both sites. In both cases I get them from the "Users" pages. I can link them here [1][2] - but be aware that these are dynamic and will almost certainly be different specific values to the ones I posted. I believe the context I posted them in makes that pretty clear.

Secret Debates: My opponent tries to make the point that these have not been a successful experiment. This is not true. They are not for everyone, some people only like to debate topics they are very familiar with. Others, like myself,like to use debate as a chance to learn about new topics.
In the real world, teams usually get their topic given to them. It is unusual to have a team select their own topic. This proves my point, that Edeb8 mirrors the real world of debate far closer and is therefore better FOR DEBATE. When you accept a secret topic, both sides are given a pre-determined length of time to prepare their arguments. Then they debate. It's great and it works very well.

As an experiment, I used the instant chat feature, (another Edeb8 advantage) to ask Admin for the list of secret debate topics. (You can see them here: [3]) Check the time stamps and tell me this isn't a site with an approachable admin!

In case you can't read that...

As you can see, he is right on the money. Pretty good.

By the way, you like the fully customisable backgrounds? Another Edeb8 plus. Easy to concentrate on a debate when you have the NZ Flag as your background... I guess if you feel homesick, you could always fill up the edges with advertising...

Debate Styles:
To be very clear - I 100% stand by this claim. gives the user the opportunity to create and conduct a debate in a style that MOST MIRRORS REAL LIFE. While taking advantage of the features available to an online medium. This makes it the better site FOR DEBATE - which is all this resolution talks about.

Check THIS out? How exciting is this? A proper British Parlimentry debate. How good is that.
Edeb8 makes a debate like this possible and easy.

As a site for playing Mafia, voting on a poll, voicing an opinion on Goku vs Batman, selling penis enlargement, trolling idiot 12yr olds who don't know what a debate is, DDO has it all over Edeb8.
But when it comes to running a debate - Edeb8 has everything you want.

Again, I thank my opponent for his thoughts, I thank the judges for their consideration.
I look forward to our next round.

Thank you.

[1] DDO Numbers:;
[2] Edeb8 Numbers:;
[3] Secret topics:
Debate Round No. 3



Because of the rules, in this last round, I will present a defense of my case.

Defense of Pro's case

1. Popularity

Con accepted that popularity is an important criteria in a debate because a site "needs to be popular enough to attract enough people to debate, and good quality debaters".

Then he claims that both sites meet this criteria and a differentiation is not necessary making this point irrelevant
Con's arguments for this are (1) that one debater having several debates is not necessary, (2) that debate clubs have around 10 to 15 members and (3) that you can challenge members of another online debate site.

(1) The point of popularity is not meant to be an attack to how many debates you can have at the same time, but how fast you can get to debate a topic you want and with different opponents that have different styles and levels.
If you want to debate an unpopular topic, having an small pool of debaters will reduce the possibilities of debating that topic. And sure, maybe "admin" or Con, "Nzlockie", may be willing to accept any topic, but the point is that there is not enough debaters to fulfill the 2 criteria mentioned.

Let's check the debates in Edeb8
There are 7 debates that are in progress right now. [1]

If we don't count the debate without title I can't access and read, we are left with 6 debates.
All those 6 debates have 1 debater in common, the debater that was mentioned by Con in his last round. This is already against the second criteria of having different opponents
If we check the dates, we can see that 3 of those debates started one month ago. The rest started 15 days ago, 8 days ago and 3 days ago. This and the fact that there are 0 open challenges right now shows that there is not enough debates. if you wanted to debate right now, you would have to know the other debaters and if you were new on online debating you would have a really hard time.

If we compare this to the 10 debates in progress in the last hour only [2] and 22 open challenges [3], it's clear that you will not have any problem finding a debate against people of your skill, the topics you love, and very fast.

(2) Here Con compares the debating sites with debate clubs. But debating sites ARE NOT debating clubs. As a matter of fact, in DDO, there were some clubs created with 10 to 15 expected members per club. [4][5][6][7][8]
The idea of those clubs is to have debaters with related interests share thoughts, practice debating and create discussions.

And we can't compare a debating site with a debating club. In a debating site, you may debate only the topics you want. That and the fact that more debaters mean more range on levels and more opportunity to the new comers gives the advantage to DDO.

(3) Challenging debaters of other sites doesn't solve the problems. Again, new comers will still find problems and the fact that you would not need more than DDO to start debating is good for DDO.

So my contention is that right now, ONLY DDO meets this criteria and the argument of popularity is still relevant to the debate.

2. Voting

The idea of voting is to gather as much people's OPINION on the debate as possible. It's true that there are bad votes in DDO, but implying that all votes are perfect in Edeb8 is far from the truth, and I'm sure you didn't try to say that, but that's what it sounded like and it would be the only explanation for the rebuttal, sadly, it's not true.

The point is that bad votes should not be a problem with a huge amount of votes.

3. Bugs

To recreate the bug in the picture you have to log out. The idea is that it's not intended.

About the bug in one of the debates, I remember clicking on submit, and I explained that in the comments, the point is that my post was still saved. In the case of "Csareo!!!", his post was deleted even when it gets saved by default.

Then Con claims that there was a bug in DDO without providing evidence for that.
And yes, admin makes a great effort fixing bugs. And DDO maybe had similar bugs in the past, and this is my point, DDO has more time and had a lot of bugs fixed already and it's more reliable than Edeb8 bug wise right now.

And I found another just talking about this debate with Nzlockie.

The times don't make sense. The times I get for my messages are correct, but the times he gets for his messages are not.

4. Number Sources

Can't open them yet.

5. Secret debates

I'm just using the results to see if the experiments were successful. Con claims that the experiment was successful because there are people that like those types of debates. Sadly, what's the objective of the experiment? Con claimed in his second round that most of the debates were good and thoughtful debates, and that was not true.

Then Con claims that Edeb8 is better for debates because of this feature. But this is not compelling. Most of the debates topics are selected by the debaters and accepted. Con is talking about an specific type of debates related to school and collage debating.
In general, real life debates topics are chosen and accepted. Debates for important issues, in DDO called "The big issues". [9]

6. Debate styles

Con keeps comparing debating sites with real life. It's fine to have a competitive environment for debates, but again, one of the benefits of using DDO is the forgiving nature that it has to newcomers. And the fact that you can also have really competitive debates and tournaments shows that DDO have enough features AND users to mirror real life debates too.

The British parliament debate is very cool. The DDO's reasoning for not implementing those kind of features is because it may not be used constantly, and considering that there is only one debate on Edeb8 using that feature that is not even finished yet makes it impossible to make comparison or run statistics.

As for the last arguments, the fact that people play mafia, use polls, opinions or spam or advertise on DDO has nothing to do with the great community that revolves around debates. And talking about debates, those idiot 12yr olds who don't know what a debate is are welcome to learn, which shows a true range of different styles from a forgiving nature of casual debates [10] to the awesome competitive tournament-level debates [11].



I thank Nzlockie for this debate. I wish him good luck in this debate and the rest of the tournament.


Thank you Arc for that closing round. As per the rules of this debate, I will be rebutting my opponent's argument and summing up my own.

BOP: In this debate, my opponent had to convince you that DDO provides a better platform than Edeb8 on which to conduct your debate. My burden was to merely show that at worst, Edeb8 was no worse and at best, it may actually be better.

Popularity: Predictably he begins by citing the fact that after 5 years, DDO has a far larger user base than Edeb8. This point is uncontested. He then needs to show that that large user base actually makes DDO a better site for debate.
My first rebuttal is to question exactly how many people are required for a good debate site. He does not provide an answer, only that it is more than Edeb8 has.
My second rebuttal is in the form of a contention. I contend that the range and quality of the people is FAR more important than the sheer volume. My flow-on contention is that Edeb8 HAS the requisite range and skill. This goes unchallenged.

In his last round, my opponent shifts his angle and says that what he REALLY meant to say was that even though you COULD debate anything on Edeb8, it would take too long before someone accepted your debate. I really wish he'd just said this right at the beginning.

His evidence for this is the fact that currently nobody on Edeb8 is waiting for someone to accept their challenge. He contrasts this with the fact that on DDO there are currently 22 topics that someone is wanting to argue and nobody has stepped forward yet. If this logic seems backwards to you, then good - it does to me as well.
I checked and almost HALF of those were started more than 3 days ago! So on a site where there are now around 185.5K members, 1368 of them have checked in in the last 3 days and not one of them wants to argue that, "Dean Koontz is a better author than Stephen King" [1]
Contrast that with Edeb8 where currently 100% of the people who want to debate their subject ARE debating their subject.

Seriously! He MIGHT have a point here, but we'll never know because his evidence actually goes directly against it.
I think that if you were to look through the resolutions of the 93 completed debates on Edeb8 [2] - you would rest assured that the range of topics able to be argued there is just fine. (Except for pretty much anything by LifemeansGodisGood. I'm a Christian and even I find that guy annoying. Y'all can keep him here.)

Judges, it is critical that you see that the ONLY criteria a debate site has to have is enough of the RIGHT people. Both sides in this debate agree that there are excellent debaters on both sites. Both sides agree that Edeb8 has enough debaters that all topics that people currently WANT to debate, are BEING debated.
This line of argument MUST result in a tie for both sites, which means that PRO has not met his BOP.

I also want to recap my contention that Edeb8 only attracts members who are there for DEBATE. There are no Polls, or Opinion pages to distract, people are only there for debate.
The resolution asks which is the better site for DEBATE? I say, the site that has people there purely for debate, has to outweigh the other.
This line of argument MUST result in a win for Edeb8.

My contention in this debate was that the Voting structure on Edeb8 places far more emphasis on RFD. PRO is right when he says I didn't say that there are no bad votes on Edeb8... in fact I actually said the opposite. I pointed out that when someone gives a bad vote on Edeb8, they are scarred by it! Their ranking drops and as a result we have seen far better voting take place.

RFD is important as this is what helps you grow as a debater. Edeb8 places a high emphasis on this with a large resource library, a voting system that rewards constructive critique and even a coaching system.
At best the voting system on DDO is the same as Edeb8, at worst Edeb8's is better. Either way PRO's BOP has not been met.

Bugs: My opponent contends that because Edeb8 has bugs it is not a good place to conduct your debate. His examples of Bugs have been shown to either be User error or not even critical to the process of debate. He agrees that Edeb8 has an excellent administration who is motivated and competent to finding and correcting these bugs and offers no counter to my contention that DDO can not say the same.

In his last round, he's posted an image of a bug. Here is the same conversation from my side:

Please note the time stamps. I'm not accusing my opponent of doctoring up his screenshot at all, I'm merely posting this to show that the site IS working correctly. His computer might need its cache cleared or something. Either way, time stamps in a chat window do not affect the ability to conduct a debate.

On the other hand, I claimed that DDO's verification system failed to work for me. I was unable to get verified, thus meaning that I was unable to fully participate in the debate aspects of this site - namely, voting.
Not only was this a bug, but the site's admins completely refused to answer my reports. This is unacceptable.
PRO asked me for proof, and so I offer the only proof I have of this: This shot comes from a thread complaining about Juggle [4].

And then here was Airmax waving his magic wand to get me verified. Several weeks after my first report, still no contact from the site admin.

Finally, since my opponent submitted new evidence, I also submit new evidence:

Yes that's right, much like EVERY SINGLE SITE ON THE INTERNET - it turns out that DDO has plenty of Bugs as well, despite going for five times longer than Edeb8. The difference is that unlike Edeb8, there is no evidence that DDO has an admin that actually fix anything in a timely manner!

My opponent has not denied that bugs on DDO exist and has not demonstrated that any bugs on Edeb8 are worse than those on DDO. This point is negated.

Debate Styles: Throughout this whole debate I have maintained that the single biggest reason why Edeb8 is, not just an equal, but a BETTER site than DDO for debate is that it more accurately mirrors real life debate.
In his final round my opponent failed to rebut this.
His comments on Secret debates only serve to expose his lack of experience. In real life debate teams hardly EVER get to choose their topics.

Make no mistake - the fact that Edeb8 mirrors real life debate is a HUGE reason why you should host your next debate there.

Final word:
Judges please remember the resolution. It is that DDO is a better place for debate than Edeb8. My side has shown this to be false. Edeb8 is an equal if not a better site for debate to

Thank you. Vote CON.

Debate Round No. 4
17 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by 9spaceking 3 years ago
Anal. part 4
Nzlockie pretty much already won this thing by this point. It would take a forfeit for him to lose. He repeats what he said in the previous rounds, and repeats how Edeb8 indeed, has the core debaters required to be at least equal to DDO, and that the range and skill of those users, and strengthens his arguments even further--the concentration argument-- and makes a good point, bolding a load of text and talking about the BoP, and repeats once again for how edeb8 is a better site for debating--it concentrates on it and nothing else. He even stresses the importance of a good vote or bad vote on Edeb8, the grand difference, and how they are weighted by score. He once again repeats his point abouthow edeb8's admin is much better than DDO mod's. TOO TRUE.
-Secret topics, he wins too. Arc really did fail this point.
Posted by 9spaceking 3 years ago
Anal. Part 3
Sorry about not finishing my vote, I was busy biting off Uchi vs Raisor's Utilitarianism debate. Er....Jack was. Whatevs.
Arctimes iterates the sad, sad, story of an old man on the street, biting of a single last piece of banana while nobody does anything to help him, and he shivers in the clothes in his rags, and oh---I'm crying here right now--
Okay, so what ArcTImes really says is that on Edeb8 there are barely any debates, and that DDO's debates are far far better. He also points out that bad votes aren't a prob. with so many voters available. He also takes about how bugs can be "created", or rather, found, even randomly. He also points out that most of the secret debates were actually not that good, and points out that in reality topics are actually chosen.... no source here? What?
Okay, so he finally concludes with concession that BP is very cool, but immediately regains footage by talking about how it's the only one on the site so far and that there is a huge lack of statistics to back up how awesome the BP style really is. He then repeats his old points about the things that DDO has that Edeb8 doesn't (which, I remind him, was USED AGAINST HIM ALREADY!!! Does he not learn!!) And thanks Nzlockie for the debate.
Posted by nzlockie 3 years ago
Haha, Space, by bad spelling, do you mean "customisable" with no "z"?
So on DDO you have to use American spelling?
I did not know that. That's funny.
Posted by 9spaceking 3 years ago
Analyzation part 2
Arctimes makes a save with the fact that DDO could lose a lot of members and still be of good quality. He points out that NZlockie commited some kind of a texas sharpshooter, and that just some of the users not dedicated to debating does not mean not enough users. He makes another good point about how you have more active members, and thus better fast-moving games too. He mentions another bug and the big disadvantage of the secret topic. He also quickly shoots out some debates by mentioning DDO's different debates. But note that he makes a mistake here by comparing unlimited charc.s to unli mited time. Let's see if nzlockie replies to this next round...
(And of course Arc rebuts usability in a confusing way, that must be noted)

Anyhow, nzlockie replies....
He says that quality is better than quantity , and notes how Edeb8 has overall better quality debaters. He also mentions how DDO has lots of bad judges as well to the good judges, while on Edeb8 there aren't as many bad judges in comparison. He also mentions how Edeb8's "moderator" is far superior to DDO's moderators. (This is true and kind of unfair to DDO IMO, because 2 mod's and a prez have to take care of more than 175,000 users in contrast to one lone wolf taking care of just 18 people, so edeb8 has the upper hand here). Nz also mentions how sources are wrong; and moves on to how in reality secret topics are conducted in the same way was in edeb8. And, he also mentions the quick chat (ah, a good reason against the Google hangouts we have to use on DDO!) and even mentions the fully customizable background (bad spelling for nzlockie right here, but whatevs) He concludes with the amazing british parliament style debate!
Posted by 9spaceking 3 years ago
yeah, there's a limit.
Anyhow...let me continue my analyzation....
After pointing out the bug from Edeb8, Arc moves to highlight his point about the RFD once again and concludes his round.

NZlockie concedes that indeed Edeb8 has less visitors, but--the visitors are more massive in COMPARISON to the whole amount, and he talks about how not everyone has to debate on DDO, and thus due to the lack of distractions on Edeb8, people can concentrate on debating. He even mentions the positive benefits and talks about how the limited range encourages further, deeper interactions.
He then moves on to Edeb8's specialty within random topics every once in a while, as well as secret topics! (I love them!! :D) He even mentions the things Edeb8 has that DDO doesn't have (all those different kinds of debates, as well as functions). And he mentions that function where the debate can be read out loud. Good, amazing, right on point!
Nzlockie concludes with his auto-save point, which is true and completely trumps DDO's no auto-save system, and concludes by highlighting his arguments. Well done!
Posted by nzlockie 3 years ago
Why does a lot of DDO post these RFDs in the comments section? Is there some limit on long it can be in the vote section or is it just a site convention?
Posted by 9spaceking 3 years ago
Analyzation of debate part one
ArcTimes makes good cases about how DDO is more popular, leading to more votes (and thus less biased votes). He also talked about how is much more accessed, and edeb8 can't even be found on the first links, which is entire true. And he even speaks of the grand epic scale of opinions, polls, etc. found on DDO not found on Edeb8. Yup, everything's here. He even points out a bug right then and there.....
to be continued
Posted by Relativist 3 years ago
Nice topic to debate on.
Posted by larztheloser 3 years ago
Issue resolved everybody: ArcTlmes was using 2 computers with 2 different time zone settings at the same time, and the 2 time zones were conflicting. The edeb8 live chat assumes each user will only be in one time zone at a time, or else it can get it wrong as you see there. I don't actually consider this a bug, though I'll leave the question open to voters to decide.
Posted by ArcTImes 3 years ago
Except that this last problem and the problem the last time was tested on different computers, and the fact that what seems to be wrong is the time of the other person's messages, which is something I don't have access until it passed though the server makes me think that it's not a problem in my side.

Did you test it with someone else? If it was with Nzlockie, maybe it worked because you are from the same country.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by UchihaMadara 3 years ago
Who won the debate:Vote Checkmark-
Reasons for voting decision: Pro has shown that ddo has qualities that make it better than edeb8. (yes, that is a parody of dsjpk's BS vote).
Vote Placed by 9spaceking 3 years ago
Who won the debate:-Vote Checkmark
Reasons for voting decision: analyzation within the comments.
Vote Placed by dsjpk5 3 years ago
Who won the debate:-Vote Checkmark
Reasons for voting decision: Con has shown that edeb8 has qualities that make it at least equal to ddo.